Hey there!
I have sort of developed an idea for gish class with a kind of vampiric flavour that I would love some help fleshing out. I would appreciate any ideas or assistance in this endeavor, so thanks in advance to all you posters!
The basic premise of the class (I'm sort of leaning towards calling them the sanguinary guard atm, but its totally up in the air) is that of an order of warriors who use magic to empower themselves by using their foes blood as fuel. They don't actually consume the blood, they "simply" rip the remaining life force or whatever out of their dying enemies blood. This "pool" of blood energy lasts for one hour(the time is refreshed if another foe is slain) an grants the guard a bonus to his effectiveness in combat that are flavourful and hopefully representative of a gish emulating powerful undead.
The basic idea behind the blood pool is that it will be an active mechanic that the guard can only access after killing an enemy or using a specific spell that deals damage to himself to gain blood points (It may also work as a sort of reverse lay on hands, but Im not sure yet). The number of points that a guard may have at any one time is equal to half their level rounded down. At levels where the blood pool expands, the guard will gain new class features associated with that expanded pool limit.
In addition to the blood pool, the guard will have four levels of arcane casting. I'm not sure which spells would be most appropriate, but I was thinking that it would be furnished with some necromancy spells and the like. The thing is, I don't want the class to be immediately evil. More like a magical order of warriors that have a kind of pragmatic approach to the consequences of violence. If somebody is already dying because you just stabbed them, you may as well use the remainder of their life force to power you magic, right?
Anyhow, any thoughts on this idea and ways to improve it would be greatly appreciated. I like the idea of an active resource, but it will be difficult to balance against other powers because the sanguinary guard will probably be a slow starter. To that end, I thought that the bonuses from the pool resource should be pretty good.
The classes I'm looking at most are the barbarian and the paladin for inspiration.
The casting stat of the guard will be charisma like the paladin (and because it fits the theme), and he will most likely be spontaneous because that seems to be an unwritten rule for charisma based casters.
To that end, I will be adding a mechanic at second or third level to add their charisma modifier to there hit points and fortitude save. That way they don't have to suffer from too many tertiary scores (they can just keep their con at 10) and I think it should be fairly balanced because they still won't be able to dump their con without suffering penalties. Even if they dump their int and wisdom to min max like crazy, they will just have a larger than average health pool to work with. It also feels thematically appropriate for the warrior with blood based abilities to have good hit points.
Hmmm, I guess the base class template should look like this.
Hit die - D10
Good saves - Fort, Will (seems appropriate, consistent with paladin)
skills - 2+int (the only reason I am going this route is legacy, seems low for any hybrid or martial)
bab - full
casting - fourth level
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I would give it 6th lvl casting, but then that's just me,
and as a 2+int skill class that doesn't have int as a prime requisite that is going to be a major weakness of the class
in addition to the necromancy spells there should also be some enchantment spells and maybe a few illusions, along with fly, levitate, invisibility, haste, bull's str (and the corresponding spell for cha and possibly dex and int) summon nature's ally (maybe with the fiendish template or un breathing template)
Nah, I'm pretty sold on having casting be a tertiary feature rather than half the dish. In reality, I would think an arcane based four level caster would have to have some huge restrictions to his spell list.
I agree with you in spirit on the skill point comment, but I think your going to have to have one crippling weakness to accommodate any arcane casting.
I think in the end, the class will have to come in slightly behind the pally in effect if only for the reason of the arcane casting. Not one hundred percent sure either way though, that's why I appreciate the comments, thanks!
I would suggest working it out like we do the MCAs. If you are wanting it to be behind the paladin, but be arcane, use the paladin's table as the template. Start removing abilities and placing your new ones where they seem to fit (powerwise and usability). Once you have those plugged in, remove any excess pally abilities and then take a look at the table, see what's missing, needs to be moved, improved, reduced, etc.
If you are going d10, full BAB, then yes, only 1/2 caster, especially for an arcane, and I assume it will get medium and heavy armor at some point? May want to just use the Magus abilities for those. Skill points could go either 2 or 4 + Int, but we'll see once the class is fleshed out and see the function, role, and flavor of the class as a whole.
Blood pool should go either at 1st (like the arcane pool) or 2nd/4th like the ki pools (ninja/monk). Unlike those other pools, I think if you are going to make it a pool that you only gain access to after you slay an opponent, then I would suggest you go with blood points = Con mod. With something like this, I think your main stats shoud be Str (combat), Cha (spells), and Con (blood related abilities).
Another option for the blood pool is to go with an amalgamation of the amateur gunslinger's grit pool and the magus's arcane pool. Essentially, you have a blood pool, it has only 1 point in it at the start of each day, but you can gain blood points up to 1/2 your level + Con mod. Much like you can regain grit points by making crits or doing daring deeds, you'd gain 1 blood point per HD or CR level of the monster you slay, whichever seems more to your liking.
Spell list will come after you've fleshed out all the class features.
I'll give you a hand working on this one if you like. But I'll need to see a well fleshed out base class table and general ability descriptions.
The casting stat of the guard will be charisma like the paladin (and because it fits the theme), and he will most likely be spontaneous because that seems to be an unwritten rule for charisma based casters.
To that end, I will be adding a mechanic at second or third level to add their charisma modifier to there hit points and fortitude save. That way they don't have to suffer from too many tertiary scores (they can just keep their con at 10) and I think it should be fairly balanced because they still won't be able to dump their con without suffering penalties.
So, Con AND Cha to HP and Fortitude? That's a lot of HP.
All the class will need is a Cha 14 to cast its highest spells. Con is still in the running, and will likely get boosted beyond 10.
I agree with Pupsocket on the Con + Cha thing. would suggest a different way for boosting hp, such as an ability where the class gains temp HP, something like vamipric touch, but perhaps tied to the blood pool.
Also, if this is supposed to be somewhat tied to "undead" aspects, you could add in an ability where the class can add either Con or Cha as HP and Fort saves, but not both, as most undead do this for their hp and Fort saves. That way, they can choose the better of the two instead of just stacking them.
I think in terms of the pool ability, it should work similar to grit.
You start with a limited pool, that pool is replenished when you kill a foe. 1 hour is too short for this to be a workable class. Trying to balance a resource that doesnt happen until the very end of a fight (when things start dying usually) against its potency is going to be a problem for the class.
I think an ability for charisma to replace con in hp and fort saves is fine. In addition might be a bit much. Though if they came at two separate abilities it might be ok. The point is it shouldnt be easy to double up. This is after all a martial character, they normally would have a good con (paladins generally do) even if its not barbarian good.
Yeah, the whole reason I wanted to do something with charisma to support a tertiary ability score was to mitigate the cost of making it more MAD without being as potent as the paladins blanket save bonus. Constitution seemed like a safe bet because it fit the theme (vampires use charisma instead of con) and wouldn't have crazy consequences. The reason I thought it was best for it to be additive instead of replacing con altogether is to prevent dumping the stat altogether. I'll have to look at outliers to determine how strong this really is in practice.
I'm definitely going to have this class start in light armor and get access to medium armor around eighth level. They will not get access to heavy armor. I don't think heavy armor is necessary to fulfill the theme and I want dexterity to be a score that is needed so they can't just ignore it.
I was also trying to describe a sort of blood sacrifice ability in one of the above posts that would actively fill part of the guards blood pool at the cost of hit points.
This would obviously mitigate the additional hit point advantage to a large degree. I haven't decided if it should be a swift action spell or something akin to lay on hands.
I will have to think on your suggestions with regard to the ki or grit mechanic. I was kind of enamored with the idea of a pool of resource that would have to be actively managed through personal hit point loss and combat to give it a little bit of uniqueness. I can see the power being very weak or too strong depending on how I arrange it though.
On the Con/Cha thing, maybe work it like Canny Defense works, where you don't get it all at once. At 4th and every 3 levels following (7th, 10th, etc) 1 point of Cha mod is added to hps and fort saves. At the same time, as they become more and more undead, they lose a point of Con every odd level after first. To prevent instant death from Con drain, allow them to swap out Con drain/damage for Cha drain/damage as an immediate action.
At 3rd level, Deathknell as a SLA once per day per target.
At 5th level, Vampiric Touch as SLA 3+Cha modx/day.
Other things.
As far as starting with light armor only, that doesn't happen with any other full BAB class. Doesn't make it wrong, but worth considering.
On the Con/Cha thing, maybe work it like Canny Defense works, where you don't get it all at once. At 4th and every 3 levels following (7th, 10th, etc) 1 point of Cha mod is added to hps and fort saves. At the same time, as they become more and more undead, they lose a point of Con every odd level after first. To prevent instant death from Con drain, allow them to swap out Con drain/damage for Cha drain/damage as an immediate action.
At 3rd level, Deathknell as a SLA once per day per target.
At 5th level, Vampiric Touch as SLA 3+Cha modx/day.Other things.
As far as starting with light armor only, that doesn't happen with any other full BAB class. Doesn't make it wrong, but worth considering.
Thanks for the input! I don't want the class to actually become undead, the basic premise is that the sanguinary guard uses blood magic to "emulate" the powerful qualities of intelligent undead.
I hear you on the armor, but I think that the class should not get arcane casting, heavy armor, and a large pool of health. I just don't think its appropriate or really thematic. Vampires are agile and deadly, an order of warriors trying to emulate their strengths should not be able to ignore dexterity.
As far as what powers the blood pool will grant, I can't say I have fully formulated any ideas. I was thinking of effects that would be fairly potent but flavourful. Kind of like having death ward up when you have over four points in your blood pool or having your pool count as a competence bonus to charisma based skills after you have two points in your pool.