After the discussion on Hit Points on the Advise forum I thought I would move this here.
For those who didnt read it, the notion is that magical healing has a sort of deminishing return affect because of the nuances of the HP mechanic. The same magic spell that reattaches a first level character's arm barely heals a scratch on a high level character.
I understand that any dramatic change to this might have unforseen destabllizing affects so Im not suggesting anything dramatic but perhaps a modifier of sorts to allow magical healing to scale up through the ranks the way natural healing does. (1HP per level per night of rest or 2/level for a whole day)
If CLW heals 1d8 HP on a first level character, what should it do for a 2nd? 3rd? 10th? etc. Multiplying the result types their level would seem to be a bit too radical and doesnt address the fact that level doesnt necessarily indicate HP potential alone, class and HD type has something to do with it too.
What do you think?
In JCservant's CoT game I believe he house rules double healing.
Also remove the level limit for cures
double healing for who?
double healing for who?
My bad. Double healing on the CLW-CCW spells.
Do all healing items and potions perform by one of the healing spells in practice?
I'd still advocate for the Cure line to be like this:
CLW -> heal as if you rested for 1 day (2hp/lvl)
CMW -> heal as if you rested for 2 days
CSW -> 3 days natural rest
CCW -> 5 days natural restIf you wish to account for the power of the caster or the person being healed, there are a couple of options (all of which are thematically appropriate)
Option 1: Apply the same flat +lvl bonus to healing at the end. It's a pretty small bonus overall, but it fits the overall game theme where a higher level caster just Does It Better.
Option 2: Apply a bonus based off the CON bonus of the person being healed. I think it's not an uncommon house rule that natural healing is level+con bonus/day. If you use this, these healing spells might be too powerful...but it's again in theme. Tougher, healthier people heal faster.
Would the target feel refreshed afterwards as well, as if actually resting a day? Not that they could memorize spells or anything but essentially it would be a day of rest, healing up soreness, fatigue and such. Right?
I've thought about changing them to a set value, depending on the healer:
CLW: 5 + 1/lvl
CMW: 15 + 2/lvl
CSW: 25 + 3/lvl
CCW: 40 + 4/lvl
No level caps, and these are only for healing, harming works as it does now. This is not because I dislike the hp system, I just want healing to be a better option in combat - as it stands, healing is sublinear in power.
But healing doesn't repair serious injuries(eg. broken limbs or conditions), it just stops you from dying and lets you fight on.
I take it then that the higher level spells were designed to basically totally restore a character. Adding this little bonus is going to make them very powerful.
6th level character with say 50 HP would heal 3d8 (average of say 12) plus 3 days at 12 per day for a total of 48 HP from the CSW spell. That brings them to full HP from near death.
or did you mean instead of the normal die roll?
Zilvar, I like your idea but it seems a little underpowered. A typical 1st level character is totally restored when CLW is used on them while in your suggestion they would gain 2 HP only. Perhaps there should be a minimum, like the die roll already listed with the spells, then the day-based natural heal as a bonus.
I've thought about changing them to a set value, depending on the healer:
CLW: 5 + 1/lvl
CMW: 15 + 2/lvl
CSW: 25 + 3/lvl
CCW: 40 + 4/lvlNo level caps, and these are only for healing, harming works as it does now. This is not because I dislike the hp system, I just want healing to be a better option in combat - as it stands, healing is sublinear in power.
But healing doesn't repair serious injuries(eg. broken limbs or conditions), it just stops you from dying and lets you fight on.
The trouble with this, in my opinion, is that it doesnt address the fact that the power of the spell deminishes as the ability of its target increases. Each of those spells is more effective against a low level character when a wound, is a wound at any level, you know?
Why not use percentages of total HP?
Cure Light Wounds = 10%
Cure Moderate Wounds = 25%
Cure Serious Wounds = 50%
Cure Critical Wounds = 75%
Well the problem there, and Im sure Im sounding picky, is that a 1st level character then, with say 11HP, would only gain 1 or so HP from a wand of CLW.
I guess Im looking for a sort of sliding scale where the power of each begins pretty powerful at the lower levels then slowly loses some effect as the character levels increase. A deminishing return yes but not as big as the one we see now. A CLW wand for example shouldnt be as effective on a Dragon's light wounds as it is on a 2nd level thief.
What Im going to playtest is having the various spells do their regular number of d8 but then add 1/2/3 or 4 (light, moderate, severe and critical) HP per target HD.
A 6th level character then, recieving a cure severe wounds spell would get 3d8+18. If we assume an average die roll (12)then he gets 30HP and that should be about 50% of his typical HP total. Sounds about right. There is some variability there since the die roll still exists, and the bonuses grow with the level of the characters. Ill play with it a bit and see.
The objective here was to simply scale the healing with the target level a bit without a complicated rule mechanic or dramatically changing the dynamic. I think this may do it.
Well the problem there, and Im sure Im sounding picky, is that a 1st level character then, with say 11HP, would only gain 1 or so HP from a wand of CLW.
I guess Im looking for a sort of sliding scale where the power of each begins pretty powerful at the lower levels then slowly loses some effect as the character levels increase. A deminishing return yes but not as big as the one we see now. A CLW wand for example shouldnt be as effective on a Dragon's light wounds as it is on a 2nd level thief.
What Im going to playtest is having the various spells do their regular number of d8 but then add 1/2/3 or 4 (light, moderate, severe and critical) HP per target HD.
A 6th level character then, recieving a cure severe wounds spell would get 3d8+18. If we assume an average die roll (12)then he gets 30HP and that should be about 50% of his typical HP total. Sounds about right. There is some variability there since the die roll still exists, and the bonuses grow with the level of the characters. Ill play with it a bit and see.
The objective here was to simply scale the healing with the target level a bit without a complicated rule mechanic or dramatically changing the dynamic. I think this may do it.
It's not being picky. I agree that there seems to be a case of diminishing returns as the healing spells go higher.
Cure Light Wounds: Cures 1d8 damage + 1/level (max +5). [1st class lvl]
Cure Moderate Wounds: Cures 2d8 damage + 1/level (max +10). [3rd class lvl]
Cure Serious Wounds: Cures 3d8 damage + 1/level (max +15). [5th class lvl]
Cure Critical Wounds: Cures 4d8 damage + 1/level (max +20). [7th class lvl]
If you want to keep the d8's that's fine. It would probably work better than the % anyway since a cure moderate wounds spell curing 25% of a 20 HP character would only restore 5 points while a regular CMW would minimally cure 3 and at maximum would cure 26. Really, it's the additional restorative that makes them so low, since they all have +1/level with a five-point increase in maximum (+5, +10, +15, +20).
CLW could probably stay the same. CMW could have 2d8+9, CSW could have 3d8+18, and CCW could have 4d8+27. I'm not sure if this would scale up any better, but it's always a good idea to have a logical progression.
does this also mean that a fireball will do sliding damage as well?
I mean why make healing special?
Speaking of Fireball, what if a 3rd level cure spell healed 1d6 per caster level, up to a maximum of 10d6, to all within a 20 ft radius?
does this also mean that a fireball will do sliding damage as well?
I mean why make healing special?
Because a fireball has a set power level, where healing is proportional to the target, and shouldn't be to any great degree. When you consider higher levels have more HP, then the healing spells lose their potency as a result, which is ridiculous.
Bob the Cleric casts CLW 1d8 on a young warrior (1st level) and brings him back from the edge of death (1HP) to nearly full health (11HP), mending broken bones, sealing lacerations, restoring organ damage.
He turns and casts the very same spell on an older veteran (6th level)who has taken damage during a fight(down to 30HP from 60 lets say)and barely manages to aid him at all (bringing him up only 1d8 HP)
A fireball seems to do less damage to a higher level character for reasons that have always been there to explain damage in the HP system. The higher level guy makes it miss a bit, can take more pain, etc. because he is a higher level. No such explanation exists for why a heal spell doesn't work so well on them.
Speaking of Fireball, what if a 3rd level cure spell healed 1d6 per caster level, up to a maximum of 10d6, to all within a 20 ft radius?does this also mean that a fireball will do sliding damage as well?
I mean why make healing special?
That really doesn't change anything. That 5d6 cast by a 5th level caster would be awesome on a lower level character but when cast on a high level (say with 80 hitpoints) its not nearly as effective. Somehow, it lost power. (in the eyes of the caster and the target)
You can imagine the perplexed look on the clerics face when his spell just fused the skull of the young thief back together without so much as any brain damage and when he casts it on the old veteran fighter in the group its barely removes a scratch.
A fireball seems to do less damage to a higher level character for reasons that have always been there to explain damage in the HP system. The higher level guy makes it miss a bit, can take more pain, etc. because he is a higher level. No such explanation exists for why a heal spell doesn't work so well on them.
In the Tortall setting( a world from several novels such as In the Hands of the Goddess and Lioness Rampant) the more often you are healed the harder it us for the magic to work on you, meaning the healer has to use more of their magic to fix your injuries. I imagine it, in Pathfinder mechanics, meaning the people harder to heal are higher level.
Healing a percentage of hit points is probably the best way to scale the healing spells. Here is an initial suggestion:
1 Cure Light Wounds: 5%
2 Cure Moderate Wounds: 10%
3 Cure Serious Wounds: 20%
4 Cure Critical Wounds: 40%
5 Breath of Life: 80%
6 Heal: 100%
Thats an interesting consept Azten but what about a high level character that has never or rarely been healed. What about a monster ally or something. It works in a plotline but not as a functional mechanic, or at least not in my opinion.
The only way (other than scrapping the whole HP system, which IM not in favor of) is to modify each healing effect to compensate for the higher HP total of the target.
Blarg. Th3 intarwebz 8 mah post!
Anyway. rgrove, in the eaten post, I suggested that low initial healing is a feature, but if you don't like it then try option 3. Add a flat healing bonus to the end equal to the caster's casting stat bonus, capped at the same point the spells' flat bonuses are already capped.
The bonus will be very significant through level 4 or so, and then will taper off. Doing this, however, makes the cure spells again very disproportionate toward lower level characters and monsters, as the flat bonus will almost certainly start off at twice the base healing.
I also consider the nerf wands of cure light wounds that this would cause a feature (the casting stat bonus will always be the minimum required to cast the spell).
The caster's level has nothing to do with the problem at all. A 60th level caster's healing spell, no matter how powerful, would still lose effect as it was cast on targets with more HP.
Healing a percentage of hit points is probably the best way to scale the healing spells. Here is an initial suggestion:
1 Cure Light Wounds: 5%
2 Cure Moderate Wounds: 10%
3 Cure Serious Wounds: 20%
4 Cure Critical Wounds: 40%
5 Breath of Life: 80%
6 Heal: 100%
It sounds like it at a glance but it doesnt. Consider your first level Thief with 8HP. A CLW spell or wand or potion on him would heal, what, 1HP? Even a CSW would give him 2. Completely nerfs healing at low levels, where its most important.
The base spell effects are fine, its at the higher levels that the problem occurs.
Good point, maybe have it be a heal X (as per the spell description) or a percentage, whichever is better?
I'd still advocate for the Cure line to be like this:
CLW -> heal as if you rested for 1 day (2hp/lvl)
CMW -> heal as if you rested for 2 days
CSW -> 3 days natural rest
CCW -> 5 days natural restIf you wish to account for the power of the caster or the person being healed, there are a couple of options (all of which are thematically appropriate)
Option 1: Apply the same flat +lvl bonus to healing at the end. It's a pretty small bonus overall, but it fits the overall game theme where a higher level caster just Does It Better.
Option 2: Apply a bonus based off the CON bonus of the person being healed. I think it's not an uncommon house rule that natural healing is level+con bonus/day. If you use this, these healing spells might be too powerful...but it's again in theme. Tougher, healthier people heal faster.
The system you describe is one of my favorites. I like having one consistent mechanic for healing. The only thing you need to be careful with though, is that this system inverts the healing dynamic. Currently healing spells are more powerful at low level and lose potency as the target gains in levels (more effective at low levels, less effective at high levels). With the system you propose healing is less effective at lower levels and gains in effectiveness as the target levels. Just something to keep in mind.
Another option is to make the die rolled dependent on the target. For example, instead of CLW healing 1d8+1 htpts make it 1dX+1 where X is the type of die for the targets class. So casting the spell on a barbarian would heal 1d12+1 while it would heal 1d10+1 for a fighter and 1d6+1 for a wizard. That helps it to scale better without radically changing the spell mechanics.
For multi-class I would just go with the highest die from their class selection. So a Fighter/Wizard would use d10s for healing.
Another option is to make the die rolled dependent on the target. For example, instead of CLW healing 1d8+1 htpts make it 1dX+1 where X is the type of die for the targets class. So casting the spell on a barbarian would heal 1d12+1 while it would heal 1d10+1 for a fighter and 1d6+1 for a wizard. That helps it to scale better without radically changing the spell mechanics.
For multi-class I would just go with the highest die from their class selection. So a Fighter/Wizard would use d10s for healing.
I think this, while simple, is a terrible mechanic to simulate healing in DnD.
Certainly a strong theme in the game is Wizards are wimpy and Fighters are good, tough combatants. So one cure for the Wiz and three for the Ftr...
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Cleric casts CLW on the fighter and rolls 1d10+1. Cleric casts CLW on a wizard and rolls 1d6+1. Cleric casts CLW on barbarian and rolls 1d12+1. Cleric casts CLW on a Ftr1/Wiz2 and rolls 1d10+1.
Not sure what you mean by "one cure for the wiz and three for the ftr..."
The main reason I brought this up was not from a game mechanic standpoint but rather the difficulty I have in explaining how this works to the players 'in game'.
For example -
The 1st level Fighter stumbles over after a nasty fight. His 11HP are down to 2 after a several wacks from a Goblin cleaver. When he was hit the wounds were described as slashes to exposed limbs, bruising under his armor and one particular 7 point hit as a smash to his ribs. He is hurt, BAD, nearly incapacitated.
Beside him the 6th level Fighter, leading the group, also walks up. His 52HP are down to 10 after single handedly engaging a hoard of the little pests. He was sliced, battered, stomped, headbutted, poked and kicked dozens of times, now bruised, bleeding groggy but still in fighting spirit with his 10HP left.
The cleric walks up, raises his arms and casts Cure Light Wounds on the 1st level fighter - 1d8 = 7HP, the Fighter is back up to 9, almost totally healed and his wounds gone!
"You feel a warmth surround you a sense of peace, your ribs shift under your tunic, mending. The cuts on your arms close, the bruising fading, something shifts under your belt where you were kicked and the pain there subsides. You are healed!"
Then the cleric turns to the leader. He casts Cure Light Wounds for 1d8 = 7HP. The 6th level fighter goes from 10 to 17, an increase of just over 10%.
"You feel a warmth surround you and a few scratches seem to close part way. The rest of your wounds remain untouched and you are still very hurt."
Same spell, totally different affect. It shouldnt be this way. If you dont want to change the rule, Im all for leaving it alone, but how do you describe this situation?
Yes, but your still talking in game terms. Why would "this human being here" require several more healing spells to address the same injuries as "this human being over here", when the only difference is the second one is more skillful and experienced at his craft?
Uggh, if just one person had a reasonable explanation as to why one person's rib is more resistent to damage than another, simply because they are older and wiser and perhaps more skilled, Id let this whole thing go. But as it is, it appears Im an extreme minority by thinking this is a problem and Ill have to come up with a solution on my own.
Thanks guys for patience and comments, Ill figure something out.
Uggh, if just one person had a reasonable explanation as to why one person's rib is more resistent to damage than another, simply because they are older and wiser and perhaps more skilled, Id let this whole thing go. But as it is, it appears Im an extreme minority by thinking this is a problem and Ill have to come up with a solution on my own.
Thanks guys for patience and comments, Ill figure something out.
It's a bit too bad the system isn't like World Tree. In that rpg, the reason that the person can take more damage as they get older is because the connection between their body and spirit becomes stronger over time. It's harder to kill someone because their spirit simply does not want to vacate the premises. Of course, this does lead to some very Monty Pythonesque situations at times for when a person has most of his or her limbs detached and still wants to fight...
What Ive come up with is a very abstract notion that the first 10-20 HP of any character (or maybe their CON stat, theres and idea) is their actual HEALTH, if you will, where the loss of these HP indicate serious damage. After that, what is left is an intangible abstract quality that is certainly physical (its is only reduced when the individual is actually HIT, not missed or absorbed by armor)but is a blend of stamina, luck, mojo, determination and whatever else you would like to throw in. (Im still looking for a good all round descriptive term)
It is this 'whatever' that provide the HP for higher levels, it is also far more difficult to "heal" than the comparitively simple mending of tissue, because it is in part "spiritual".
In this way a CLW that brings a 60HP character from 9 to 16 HP, in actually healing some very nasty wounds, ones that almosts killed the guy. Once above their CON (I like that more and more now) they are fairly healed physically bont dont quite feel themselves yet. They are sore, stiff, fatigued and lack the heroic PEP they typically have when at a higher percentage of their max HP. To address this requires rest (natural healing) or considerable magical power (more healing spells at a noticeably lesser return)
Sounds odd perhaps but it works for me I think. The only requirement is that damage delivered to a character's HP above their Con, must be described as minor bruises, cuts, getting the air knocked out of you, straining a limb, etc... physical (as all damage must be or there are some nasty rules problems if its not an actual hit) but not serious until the HP reach the bottom.
Low level characters, of course, lack this reserve of 'whatever' and when hit, take the damage directly and typically are hurt from it more.
I thought I made it pretty clear (mentioned it twice in the post) that the "Zing" or what have you is VERY MUCH physical and you lose it from actually suffering injury, not from being missed or having your armor absorb the impact.
As to actual injury being below 0, then the only way a guy can get hurt is to be knocked out and dying. (that elusive 'exactly hp 0' disabled thing is rarely experienced)
With just a bit of descriptive color, and perhaps a minor modifier or two, your heroes can be battered, bloodied and REALLY HURT, but still functioning.
I personally use the four Cure SPells as:
CLW: d8+Level, Cap 5.
CMW: 2d8+2xlevel, cap 10th.
CSW: 3d8+3xlvl, cap 15th.
CCW: 4d8 + 4xlevel, cap 20th.
This puts a CCW at average 98 hp healed at CL 20...still less then the minimum of 110 for a Heal spell, but much closer to extremely effective.
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You are confusing Hit Points with Physical Health. The only thing that has Hit points = physical integrity are inanimate objects.
Hit points for people also represent 'luck'. I like to call them 'soak'. Basically, you get hit and take almost no physical damage...but the protective aura of magic around you, that lets you survive a fall from a mile in the sky and walk away, is being consumed.
The cure spells heal that 'aura' of hit points, as well as the physical damage.
So, no, your rib isn't any tougher to break then the guy next to you. But you have 100 hp, and he's got ten. A mace slamming into your ribs burns a bit of your soak, takes the impact for you, deflects it off to the side, etc.
Seriously, just look at False Life. Hit points are things you burn off, they don't represent your physical integrity except for the very last few.
So, yeah, mr. Noob at 2 hp out of 10 takes almost all his hp as physical damage, and the spell fixes him right up. Mr Epic takes almost all his damage as nicks, scrapes, and burning off his Hit Point shield, and the spell mostly works on restoring the shield, so there is very little physical effect to deal with.
Think of it as 'warrior's magic', if you will, letting them survive the unsurvivable. If you watch any cartoons or anime at all, you should be able to perfectly picture what is happening.
==Aelryinth
[/QUOTE)It takes more than descriptive color though. It takes a further suspension of disbelief above and beyond, in my opinion, because there are no penalties for being Really Hurt, and there should be. You're asking your players to accept that someone is just as effective at using a shield/sword/magic fingers with a broken arm (I believe that was a specific example of an injury you described earlier in this thread or the other) as they are without.
It's more likely that when an injury is truly disabling, someone's really out of the fight (barring Diehard), and everything up to that point is ActionHeroSuperficial. Bruised, bloodly, painful, but when it comes right down to it, you can grab that ledge and pull yourself up, or you can jump up and high-kick David Caradine in the head, or you can do any of a hundred other iconic last-stands and then walk off into the sunset. But in the end, if it works for you and for your players, cool. More power to you.
But if I was sitting at your table, I'd be asking the question why my mojo/PEP is harder for CLW to knit together than my bones. I still believe that your best -narrative- option is the bare-bones natural healing alternatives that I layed out, but make sure that your players have a lot of access to low level potions and such at levels 1-3 to make up for the generally lowered effectiveness that your healer classes will carry. Don't count it against them, just make sure they can...
I think your idea has a lot of merit and am still considering it. I think I would have to add a base healing amount to each spell though, above that of the natural healing multiplier, so as not to penalize the lower level characters as you mentioned. They do depend on these items a great deal and having to carry around a bandoleer or potions just seems rediculous.
Perhaps the base healing rates, as listed, plus a bonus at a natural hearling multiplier is the way to go. Ill fiddle with it a bit.
Brewing it over. Thanks for the insight Zilvar!