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It has been stated several times in the past by Paizo staff that you are not (and never have been) assumed to get 100% of your possible prestige. The target is about 75%. Individual faction missions missed the mark and now people assume they should be getting every point every time. I'm sorry, but not getting prestige should not stop a character's advancement nor their ability to be raised from the dead. That's what gold is for.
The complaint isn't "I failed" the complaint is "I had no way of knowing what I was supposed to do". The latter can vary a lot in legitimacy between scenarios and DMs, but it really does get frustrating failing against something invisible.
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The complaint isn't "I failed" the complaint is "I had no way of knowing what I was supposed to do". The latter can vary a lot in legitimacy between scenarios and DMs, but it really does get frustrating failing against something invisible.
Really? I haven't encountered anything that counts as "invisible" if one is in the mind-set of being a good Pathfinder, as in Explore (pick up anything that might help), Report (take notes if going into unknown territory, etc.), Cooperate (be a team player, and that means more than just inside the Society. Keep relations with those outside the organization on the up and up). No where in there is it "kill kill kill". Is it different? Yes. But it's doing our jobs the best we can because we know better. And if we know better, is it really invisible?
Similarly, I do like how many of the secondary success conditions put into the older scenarios seem to build off what's already there. The VC already says "We're trying to fight this and that!" or "Don't do this!" or "Be nice!" as part of the main briefing which was primarily in there for flavour, but now it's been given a purpose.
Just because you don't know EXACTLY what to do or not do does not mean you don't know what you should.
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It has been stated several times in the past by Paizo staff that you are not (and never have been) assumed to get 100% of your possible prestige. The target is about 75%. Individual faction missions missed the mark and now people assume they should be getting every point every time. I'm sorry, but not getting prestige should not stop a character's advancement nor their ability to be raised from the dead. That's what gold is for.
The complaint isn't "I failed" the complaint is "I had no way of knowing what I was supposed to do". The latter can vary a lot in legitimacy between scenarios and DMs, but it really does get frustrating failing against something invisible.
Actually I think the complaint was "despite my efforts, the other players did stuff that caused everyone to loose their second PP", not "we didn't have a clue what we where supposed to do". :)
And why do people always assume that everyone else actually thinks they are entitled to 100% PP?
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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DM Beckett, I had plenty of times back in the faction mission days where other PCs killed someone I was supposed to question.
So far I haven't always known what the second PP was. But it has always been something I knew we should do. (I couldn't always figure out *how* to make it happen, but I always knew we were supposed to do it.)
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DM Beckett, I had plenty of times back in the faction mission days where other PCs killed someone I was supposed to question.
So far I haven't always known what the second PP was. But it has always been something I knew we should do. (I couldn't always figure out *how* to make it happen, but I always knew we were supposed to do it.)
Same here. Sadly, I even did this once without realizing it. It happens. But with the new way of doing things, it's sort of an all or nothing for everyone. And if other players are constantly (even inadvertently) keeping everyone from getting a fair amount of PP, that can be a big problem, and as had been discussed a lot before the Season 5 guide, it can really put people behind the level of resources they should have. That's why I liked Faction missions, it was much less likely that other people's actions would screw you over. It obviously still happened, but it tended to not be that common, and it generally didn't screw everyone over. The Faction cards also gave everyone a pretty level playing field, where as now it's far too much on the DM, in my opinion. If a DM is not really too familiar with the possibilities the players might bring for the new faction missions or the new secondary conditions, or if they are not as clear as they should be, (hinting, vocally inflecting on certain words, or whatever), even perceptive players can completely miss things.
The other thing is, having just run Night Marches for the pbp Game Day event, so, so much of the background, flavor, and just general coolness was put in to the faction missions, (redeeming Kalk, learning the history of the sword and the fallen paladin, etc . . .), where as the new secondary condition is something that can not even possibly happen until the very end, where the party first discovers the other person, and there is no way to give a hint. Both really detracted from the story, I think, having run it both ways, and while a DM can give out the old Faction Missions, I wanted to give it an honest try without (in a few different games over different seasons), and so far I really think it's been a bad idea. A lot of the groups I've played or DM with have basically agreed, TOZ being an exception it seems, ha ha.
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And why do people always assume that everyone else actually thinks they are entitled to 100% PP?
In this case, at least, it's in response to this post: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qcoo?Secondary-Success-conditions-make-better# 34
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The intention behind that post is that the player should feel like they had some sort of a chance, rather than feel helpless.
Everyone is entitled to 100% of those second prestige points if they complete that secondary mission, but that's as far as anyone thinks it extends. Losing prestige points should be something you learn about at the end and then think "damn! of course!" rather than "how were we ever meant to have worked that out?"
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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The other thing is, having just run Night Marches for the pbp Game Day event, so, so much of the background, flavor, and just general coolness was put in to the faction missions, (redeeming Kalk, learning the history of the sword and the fallen paladin, etc . . .), where as the new secondary condition is something that can not even possibly happen until the very end, where the party first discovers the other person, and there is no way to give a hint. Both really detracted from the story, I think, having run it both ways, and while a DM can give out the old Faction Missions, I wanted to...
The problem I had with that was that often the flavor came for things that no one could know about before the mission. Faction leaders seemed to have a near omniscient knowledge of what the party would encounter.
Along the lines of: (trying to make up something close but not accurate so I don't spoiler)
"I hear you are being sent to explore the portal from which no one has ever returned, and we don't know where it goes. When you get there, can you fetch me a yeti toe?"
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The problem I had with that was that often the flavor came for things that no one could know about before the mission. Faction leaders seemed to have a near omniscient knowledge of what the party would encounter.
Along the lines of: (trying to make up something close but not accurate so I don't spoiler)
"I hear you are being sent to explore the portal from which no one has ever returned, and we don't know where it goes. When you get there, can you fetch me a yeti toe?"
There were also often missions where you knew what you had to do, but you just couldn't do it:
(DC 25 Sleight of Hand)(DC 20 Craft Painting)
(DC 20 Heal)
or what have you.
I'd rather have a mission that is not explicit, but I have a reasonable chance of deducing and/or completing, than a mission that is spelled out explicitly but requires a specific skill that the party may or may not have available.
The second prestige point is supposed to be the result of the successful application of some skill. Previously, they were a PC's skill, performed with an actual Skill Check. That has now shifted to the player's skill. How skillfully can you play a Pathfinder? WWAD*? You can't just show up with optimized skills and DPR and get your 1XP/2PP.
And just as before, even if you do know what to do, there's still going to be a chance of failure. The only skill "don't kill this guy" checks is the ability to follow basic instructions.
And yes, a bad player (or PC) can tank that second prestige point for the group. A bad player (or PC) can also tank the entire scenario, and always could.
For the latter, it's stereotypically the poorly built PC that drags the party down with their inability to contribute to skill checks or combat. For the former, it's the poorly played PC that drags the party down, making bad choices through the course of the scenario.
If a player's concept for his PC is "I kill anything that moves, I don't negotiate and I don't compromise" that's not necessarily a bad character. But it is a bad Pathfinder.
tl;dr
Old faction missions tended to be about what was on your character sheet.
New faction missions tend to be about what you do.
Exceptions exist for both cases.
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No, the secondary condition has nothing to do with the faction-related goals which are where the cherry picking comes from.
I disagree that removing/making the season 0-4 faction missions optional is a bad thing.
I believe it has been stated that the free-for-all faction missions cause multiple bad things to happen with the scenarios, including dilution of player attention, forecasting of important plot points, and general, "Say WTF?!" moments.
And, IMO, they do not help define any sport of character, other than the not-so-rare (since most of my PCs are in that class) Zarta-haters. And, to be honest, with multiple factions, multiplke PCs and a lot of gamesa played, I do not remember a time when a factionm mission did much more than make me want to get it done and over with, and that the other factions' missions just made me want to puke, sometimes. "I do this for Taldor!" Really? Why?
Most of those "already published faction missions" are a waste pof paper, from my experience as both player and GM. They either distract form the actual game you are supposed to be playing, or give away important plot points for free, or have the PCs act in ways that are either not conducive to playing as a party, or set up unintended PvP situations.
I have played in one where my faction mission was to kill the BBEG, long before the BBEG was ever introduced to the PCs. Heck, the scenario ended before I found that we had completed my faction mission, because the BNBEG's name was never given to us. Meh, just meh.
Overall, as a GM and player, my response to Season 0-4 faction missions has always benn, "Why?" They have always been a distraction from what our PCs are supposed to be, Pathfinders, and caused some pretty weird actions along the way.
What I have seen of the SSC document for Seasons 0-4 is that the conditions are fairly well telegraphed, without breaking the scenario, if you pay attention to the Pathfinder mission.
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I really dont see how the old Faction Misions being tied to PP had anything to do with cherry picking? I can easily see it in the new Faction scenario method, and it seems like it would be a bigger issue now. Can you explain that? So far my experience is that either A.) no one cares about the special Faction Scenarios, (and have issues playing the character they want to partake) or B.) more commonly it makes it more difficult to find a table for those special faction scenarios.
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Honestly, if you really liked the old faction missions for roleplay sake, you can tell your GM and in the vast majority of cases, I'm sure they'll accommodate you. They can be fun if it's only a few here and there, or if the whole table is really that keen.
The freedom of not having to do them, and having the secondary mission instead, is what I think people appreciate most.
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Show me where Paizo has stated that they assume the 4th level players are only carrying +1 items (based on their expected Fame) when designing the challenge level of the scenarios, for example. They might say that (I honestly don't know, but I have never seen it). But the scenarios I've played (admittedly not all of them, or even an appreciable number) definitely seem to be scaled a little higher than that...
Well, with 5 characters at level 4+, exactly 0 of them have had a +2 weapon by level 4. There are two reasons for this...
1) 6000 gp is almost 4 full scenarios at 4-5 (the difference between +1 and +2 weapons). Really not possible to get at level 4.
2) Even if I could, a single +2 weapon is not as good as a +1 Weapon, +1 armor, +1 Cloak of Resistence, +1 Ring of Protection, and 2000gp of other stuff to boot!
Tier 1-2 (~500 gp each) - 6 of these gets you 3000gp (and level 3).
tier 3-4 (~1300gp each) - 3 of these gets you 3900go (and level 4).
tier 4-5 (~1800gp each) - one these gets you 1800gp.
So, the earliest you could get 8000+gp would be 10 chronicles (and level 4.1).
So, if they are assuming you have a +2 weapon by level 4... they are assuming the impossible.
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I've seen the statements from Paizo... but what I haven't seen is any confirmation that scenarios are written with 1/2 or 3/4 PP expectations for the players' challenges.
Paizo has indicated that the prevailing theory is that PCs should get 4/6 of their prestige per level.
What exactly do you think that means, other than "scenarios are written with 2/3PP expectations?"
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Really? I haven't encountered anything that counts as "invisible" if one is in the mind-set of being a good Pathfinder, as in Explore (pick up anything that might help), Report (take notes if going into unknown territory, etc.), Cooperate (be a team player, and that means more than just inside the Society. Keep relations with those outside the organization on the up and up). No where in there is it "kill kill kill". Is it different? Yes. But it's doing our jobs the best we can because we know better. And if we know better, is it really invisible?
Sanos abduction comes to mind.
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Honestly, if you really liked the old faction missions for roleplay sake, you can tell your GM and in the vast majority of cases, I'm sure they'll accommodate you. They can be fun if it's only a few here and there, or if the whole table is really that keen.
The freedom of not having to do them, and having the secondary mission instead, is what I think people appreciate most.
As sad as it is to say. The two times i asked for them i was denied.
I print them and hand them out. Then I tell people they do not have to do them.
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Honestly, if you really liked the old faction missions for roleplay sake, you can tell your GM and in the vast majority of cases, I'm sure they'll accommodate you. They can be fun if it's only a few here and there, or if the whole table is really that keen.
The freedom of not having to do them, and having the secondary mission instead, is what I think people appreciate most.
As sad as it is to say. The two times i asked for them i was denied.
I print them and hand them out. Then I tell people they do not have to do them.
I print them, and ask if anyone wants them.
Usually, the answer I have received is no, if not a resounding no. Once, I think, I got a yes answer. Once.
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Prestige should be tied to more than buying stuff. For instance in the hell knights feast prestige could have given a PC a bonus vs. one of the npc's from their faction. For instance a taldan could have gotten a bonus vs. the old taldan hag in either knoledge local or diplomacy. It seems to me that our factions do not have much I game use to their members.
If you are expected to earn only 67% of your prestige why is there so much hart burn over wbl?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Matthew: Is that the SSC for Sanos Abduction, now? And that faction mission would no longer be given out, at all, anymore, anyhow.
I read his post as referring to some of the older faction missions being invisible. That was the context in which I was replying. IF I misread, sorry to add to the confusion.
Aside, I find it funny that the SSC for Drow of the Darkstone pyramid is to kill <redacted> yet for a few other scenarios it is to let the BBEG threat to the society live.
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Matthew: Is that the SSC for Sanos Abduction, now? And that faction mission would no longer be given out, at all, anymore, anyhow.I read his post as referring to some of the older faction missions being invisible. That was the context in which I was replying. IF I misread, sorry to add to the confusion.
Not a problem! It happens, haha.
I was, indeed, referring to SCC's as one qualm was the didn't like going towards an invisible goal vs one laid out as a faction handout. That's all.
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Honestly, if you really liked the old faction missions for roleplay sake, you can tell your GM and in the vast majority of cases, I'm sure they'll accommodate you. They can be fun if it's only a few here and there, or if the whole table is really that keen.
The freedom of not having to do them, and having the secondary mission instead, is what I think people appreciate most.
As sad as it is to say. The two times i asked for them i was denied.
I print them and hand them out. Then I tell people they do not have to do them.
I go through them ahead of time and weed out the ones where I believe the Faction Leader is displaying signs of omniscience that would harm the session (like asking the player to do something at a location that the no one could possibly know that they are going, because it involves investigatory work they haven't done yet) -- and then offer the remaining faction missions to any player that wants them, telling them that they don't have to do them, and will receive no reward for them.
Most old players want the faction missions. Most new players don't.
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I dont generally find it too difficult to believe that a Faction's (and/or the Society's) best and brightest would catch wind of its agents heading into an area to which they might have heard a rumor of a tea pot of some renown lost to time. Or that the various VCs (in game) tend to likewise have rather uncommon knowledge about something. Its not like the Society hordes knowledge and has connections everywhere, or even Divination magic at their disposal, after all. :)
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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But they are *never* wrong.
They never say "oh, by the way, be on the look out for X it's in the area somewhere." and then you never run into X.
So the impression is not that they have rumors that they are working from, it is that they have infallible psychic knowledge of exactly what you will find when you go there.
It wouldn't be so bad if it was something where if you just went through the adventure you would never find the thing. But if you asked around the people you met you could find directions to the other place where you could find it.
Instead it is always if you go down the path, you *will* pass the object.
Having just recently had my first Society game, I was disappointed to find out that faction missions are no longer a thing. I played 5-1 today and chose which NPC I wanted us to make friends with based on which one I thought my faction would prefer, but it seems that my faction wouldn't have cared which one we made nice with, and neither would any of the others?
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But they are *never* wrong.
They never say "oh, by the way, be on the look out for X it's in the area somewhere." and then you never run into X.
So the impression is not that they have rumors that they are working from, it is that they have infallible psychic knowledge of exactly what you will find when you go there.
It wouldn't be so bad if it was something where if you just went through the adventure you would never find the thing. But if you asked around the people you met you could find directions to the other place where you could find it.
Instead it is always if you go down the path, you *will* pass the object.
There is at least one instance where the faction head was wrong, which lead to much wasted time at the table as I searched for the needed item, and the GM searched the scenario for where it might be.
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But they are *never* wrong.
They never say "oh, by the way, be on the look out for X it's in the area somewhere." and then you never run into X.
So the impression is not that they have rumors that they are working from, it is that they have infallible psychic knowledge of exactly what you will find when you go there.
It wouldn't be so bad if it was something where if you just went through the adventure you would never find the thing. But if you asked around the people you met you could find directions to the other place where you could find it.
Instead it is always if you go down the path, you *will* pass the object.
They way I've always thought of it is that in between active scenarios, the player's characters are out doing other adventury things, and a lot of the times that they get bad info happens then, as those adventures and explorations are the ones that don't make it into the publish pathfinder chronicles. The various faction leaders thought that said tea pot might have been there too, but it wasn't, and just wasn't really worth brining up. But, when the players do actually find it, even if they botch their roll to pick it up and it shatters into a thousand now useless pieces of nothing special, well, that's an interesting story, and the camera zooms in on that event.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Having just recently had my first Society game, I was disappointed to find out that faction missions are no longer a thing. I played 5-1 today and chose which NPC I wanted us to make friends with based on which one I thought my faction would prefer, but it seems that my faction wouldn't have cared which one we made nice with, and neither would any of the others?
Umm... no, thats not correct. One of the factions cares. (That faction may not have been at your table?) In fact as I recall, members of that faction get an extra mission reward if the party makes friends with one person at the expense of the other.
You might post the details of what happened in the GM Discussion forum, with a spoilers warning, and see if it was a case of the GM missing something?
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Is it 67%? I'd always heard 75%. Point not invalidated, though.Paizo has indicated that the prevailing theory is that PCs should get 4/6 of their prestige per level.
What exactly do you think that means, other than "scenarios are written with 2/3PP expectations?"
I don't have a source on 2/3, so I thought maybe I'd just misremembered, but it just clicked--I thought that was the whole rationale behind getting 4PP for a module.
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I don't have a source on 2/3, so I thought maybe I'd just misremembered, but it just clicked--I thought that was the whole rationale behind getting 4PP for a module.Is it 67%? I'd always heard 75%. Point not invalidated, though.Paizo has indicated that the prevailing theory is that PCs should get 4/6 of their prestige per level.
What exactly do you think that means, other than "scenarios are written with 2/3PP expectations?"
It makes sense, especially with 3 scenarios to a level, 6 possible, kind of hard to have 75% of 6 and have it be a whole number. So perhaps 2/3 per level, 3/4 average over the character's career? I dunno. Regardless, it still pointing towards characters being forecasted to not get 100%.
Prestige should be tied to more than buying stuff. For instance in the hell knights feast prestige could have given a PC a bonus vs. one of the npc's from their faction. For instance a taldan could have gotten a bonus vs. the old taldan hag in either knoledge local or diplomacy. It seems to me that our factions do not have much I game use to their members.
Pathfinder Guide to Organized Play 5.0, pg 25, 'Benefits of Fame'
"For every 10 points of Fame, a character gains a cumulative +1 bonus on Diplomacy checks made against members of her faction."
Umm... no, thats not correct. One of the factions cares. (That faction may not have been at your table?) In fact as I recall, members of that faction get an extra mission reward if the party makes friends with one person at the expense of the other.
You might post the details of what happened in the GM Discussion forum, with a spoilers warning, and see if it was a case of the GM missing something?
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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This is how the new faction missions work. You don't get any extra prestige, you just get a special extra boon.
I don't really care about the extra prestige one way or the other; it just seemed like some factions should care about which side their members choose.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Let me give you an example from real life
Likewise your co workers managers don't know enough about the people involved to care one way or the other.
The only person who does care is one guys boss, because he has a side deal going where he gets a cut of the money.
That's basically what is going on here.