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Can I get a Paizo ruling for the following:
The Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play states: Items must be purchased at full value. You can't buy broken weapons or armor; you can't buy partially charged wands, rods, or staves; and you must buy ammunition in full lots (typically 10 or 20 for mundane ammunition and 50 for
magical ammunition).
Furthermore, Table 5-4: Generic Prestige Awards states: Once per session, you can acquire any single item of this cost or less from your faction by spending the appropriate number of Prestige Points. Items purchased this way are worth 0 gp and cannot be sold.
So, can you buy ammunition meeting the requirements in paragraph 1 (lots of 10 or 20 mundane and 50 for magical) with prestige points once per session as stated in paragraph 2?
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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If you want to pay for cheap ammo with prestige, yeah. You couldn't get any lots of 50 magical arrows with Pretige, though, unless you have something that lets you spend more than 2 on items, since +1 arrows would be 2300 and 2 prestige only lets you buy upto 750.
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You could use prestige to obtain non-magical firearm ammunition, as those are sold individually. For example, you could get 25 alchemical paper cartridge bullets for 1 P.
I don't believe you can buy multiples of an item with Prestige. It specifically says "any single item".
However, a quiver of arrows is a single item.
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You could use prestige to obtain non-magical firearm ammunition, as those are sold individually. For example, you could get 25 alchemical paper cartridge bullets for 1 P.
FYI-If it's sold individually, you could buy one with prestige. It allows you to buy a single item up to x gp value for 1 or 2 prestige, not items totaling up to x gp.
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You could use prestige to obtain non-magical firearm ammunition, as those are sold individually. For example, you could get 25 alchemical paper cartridge bullets for 1 P.FYI-If it's sold individually, you could buy one with prestige. It allows you to buy a single item up to x gp value for 1 or 2 prestige, not items totaling up to x gp.
I understand all that however, mundane arrows MUST be bought in lots as are magical arrows meaning masterwork, cold iron, etc. The +1 Flaming arrow thingy is listed as a single purchase item and therefore you can purchase those as such. Remember, "and you must buy ammunition in full lots (typically 10 or 20 for mundane ammunition and 50 for magical ammunition)." which makes them a 'single item' purchase. So, by the rules I cannot buy Masterwork Alchemical Cartridge (paper) (x10). I have to buy at (x50) as a single item purchase for 900gp (half for Gunslingers with Craft (alchemy)). So 450gp for gunslingers placing them in the 2 PP cost category. It's no longer a "cheap ammo" purchase and plenty of reason for doing it. Or better yet, masterwork cold iron alchemical cartridge (paper) (x50) = 1500gp before gunslinger 1/2 price option or.....750gp!!!! So yeah, I'd much appreciate a Paizo ruling on this to avoid table variation. I know people who buy wands every chronicle sheet because free wands are awesome. As is 5 of the same second level spell on a single scroll or a pair of 'Fly' spells on a single scroll. Rangers (anyone really) can buy 50 cold iron arrows (also a mandatory single purchase item) for 5 GP!!!!! They don't suck when fighting demons in season five. Gunslingers pay 600gp (after half price) for the same functionality of hitting demons hard in season five. I'm not asking for a freebie, just what everyone else gets to benefit from, Rangers getting a Masterwork Darkwood Composite Bow (+3 Str) with 2PP, Fighter/Paladin/etc getting Masterwork Half-Plate for 2PP, Casters getting Wands and Scrolls all day long (ok once a chronicle) for 2PP. I WANT SOME GUNSLINGER LOVE! Thank you for attending this rant.
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I understand all that however, mundane arrows MUST be bought in lots as are magical arrows meaning masterwork, cold iron, etc. The +1 Flaming arrow thingy is listed as a single purchase item and therefore you can purchase those as such. Remember, "and you must buy ammunition in full lots (typically 10 or 20 for mundane ammunition and 50 for magical ammunition)." which makes them a 'single item' purchase. So, by the rules I cannot buy Masterwork Alchemical Cartridge (paper) (x10). I have to buy at (x50) as a single item purchase for 900gp (half for Gunslingers with Craft (alchemy)). So 450gp for gunslingers placing them in the 2 PP cost category. It's no longer a "cheap ammo" purchase and plenty of reason for doing it. Or better yet, masterwork cold iron alchemical cartridge (paper) (x50) = 1500gp before gunslinger 1/2 price option or.....750gp!!!! So yeah, I'd much appreciate a Paizo ruling on this to avoid table variation. I know people who buy wands every chronicle sheet because free wands are awesome. As is 5 of the same second level spell on a single scroll or a pair of 'Fly' spells on a single scroll. Rangers (anyone really) can buy 50 cold iron arrows (also a mandatory single purchase item) for 5 GP!!!!! They don't suck when fighting demons in season five. Gunslingers pay 600gp (after half price) for the same functionality of hitting demons hard in season five. I'm not asking for a freebie, just what everyone else gets to benefit from, Rangers getting a Masterwork Darkwood Composite Bow (+3 Str) with 2PP, Fighter/Paladin/etc getting Masterwork Half-Plate for 2PP, Casters getting Wands and Scrolls all day...You could use prestige to obtain non-magical firearm ammunition, as those are sold individually. For example, you could get 25 alchemical paper cartridge bullets for 1 P.FYI-If it's sold individually, you could buy one with prestige. It allows you to buy a single item up to x gp value for 1 or 2 prestige, not items totaling up to x gp.
Let me quantify the second to last sentence. I'm not asking for Gunslinger love, I'm asking for unilateral fairness for PP purchasing. Actually, I'm not even asking for that. As 'I' interpret it it's already there, I'm only asking for Paizo confirmation so I don't have to argue intermittently due to table variation. If you cannot buy masterwork arrows individually but in lots of 50 then it's a single item purchase. /stands ground with a defiant stare...
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If you want to pay for cheap ammo with prestige, yeah. You couldn't get any lots of 50 magical arrows with Pretige, though, unless you have something that lets you spend more than 2 on items, since +1 arrows would be 2300 and 2 prestige only lets you buy upto 750.
Not concerned with magical as in +1. Adding +1 to the gun or bow does that for the ammunition. I'm talking about adding masterwork or more importantly cold iron. For archers, cold iron is no biggie, 5gp for 50 arrows or horror upon horrors 50 silver arrows for 105gp. Try that with alchemical cartridges, and in the season five it's not a luxury, it's a necessity or die. So from your initial reply before any back-peddling begins, 50 Cold Iron Alchemical Cartridges (paper) for 2PP (remember gunslingers get it at half cost so 600gp instead of 1200) is totally acceptable at your table. However, it's obvious from some other posts there WILL be table variation and all of a sudden I'm out of life preserving ammo during season five. Paizo, please rule one way or the other so I don't get caught in this trap:(
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You could use prestige to obtain non-magical firearm ammunition, as those are sold individually. For example, you could get 25 alchemical paper cartridge bullets for 1 P.FYI-If it's sold individually, you could buy one with prestige. It allows you to buy a single item up to x gp value for 1 or 2 prestige, not items totaling up to x gp.
Buying 50 Cold Iron Arrows is not a totallying up affair. It's a 'you cannot buy a single cold iron arrow affair' or 'rule says' affair if you will. Otherwise, I have to drop 600gp a purchase to do what everyone else gets to do cheaply or be severely penalized in season five. I think it's totally appropriate and fair to choose between a 2PP Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Mage Armor, Shield, Mwk Darkwood Composite Longbow (+3 STR, OMG!), Masterwork Half-Plate, etc or 50 cartridges that allow me to do what the Ranger is doing with 5 measly gold pieces!! Rant over...for now:)
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I stand corrected.
Good, so we all agree that Cold Iron Arrows/Crossbow Bolts/Alchemical Cartridges cannot be bought single and therefore are considered a 'quiver' of whichever and therefore can be bought with prestige. Thank you all for your confirmations but I'll feel right as rain once Paizo confirms the obvious so that I'm never confronted with table variation.
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I stand corrected.Good, so we all agree that Cold Iron Arrows/Crossbow Bolts/Alchemical Cartridges cannot be bought single and therefore are considered a 'quiver' of whichever and therefore can be bought with prestige. Thank you all for your confirmations but I'll feel right as rain once Paizo confirms the obvious so that I'm never confronted with table variation.
No.
Masterwork Ammunition is priced individually by rules.
Masterwork Weapons
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
You can't add the masterwork quality to a weapon after it is created; it must be crafted as a masterwork weapon (see the Craft skill). The masterwork quality adds 300 gp to the cost of a normal weapon (or 6 gp to the cost of a single unit of ammunition). Adding the masterwork quality to a double weapon costs twice the normal increase (+600 gp).
Arrows/Bolts are sold in lots of 20, so you can buy masterwork ammunition versions of arrows in lots of 20.
Alchemical Cartridges are sold individually by the rules, so you can only buy them individually, even if they are masterwork. The special material prices for alchemical ammunition are all determined individually as well.
Firearm Bullets can be bought in lots of thirty.
Magical Ammunition is bought in lots of 50, no matter what the individual ammunition is available in. (assuming no special boons, or named ammunition is involved.)
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The bomb-throwing Fox has it.
You can buy non-magical bullets either individually, or in lots of 30.
A Gunslinger can buy 50 +1 bullets for 2,305gp.
50 +1 cold iron bullets would cost 4,310gp.
You can buy non-magical alchemical cartridges individually.
You can buy magical alchemical cartridges in lots of 50, as referenced by the Dry Load example in UC and UE.
Non-magical arrows must be purchased in lots of 20 (with some exceptions, such as the alchemical arrows from EoG, which can be purchased individually).
You can buy 50 +1 cold iron arrows for 4,305gp.
As these examples show, there is no streamlined system for purchasing ammunition. The Guide is just stating that magical ammunition must be purchased in lots, rather than breaking out the calculator and figuring out the cost of 7 +1 adamantine golem-bane arrows.
Between darts, shuriken, arrows, bullets, bolts, and sling rocks, you're going to have to just follow the rules for that type of ammunition. Pathfinder isn't a game about economics. There will be some discrepancies, like the obvious fact that magical and non-magical arrows come in different lot sizes, but really, it's not a big deal. It may upset those of us with OCD, but hopefully it doesn't get in the way of your enjoyment of the game.
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I stand corrected.Good, so we all agree that Cold Iron Arrows/Crossbow Bolts/Alchemical Cartridges cannot be bought single and therefore are considered a 'quiver' of whichever and therefore can be bought with prestige. Thank you all for your confirmations but I'll feel right as rain once Paizo confirms the obvious so that I'm never confronted with table variation.No.
Masterwork Ammunition is priced individually by rules.
Masterwork Weapons
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
You can't add the masterwork quality to a weapon after it is created; it must be crafted as a masterwork weapon (see the Craft skill). The masterwork quality adds 300 gp to the cost of a normal weapon (or 6 gp to the cost of a single unit of ammunition). Adding the masterwork quality to a double weapon costs twice the normal increase (+600 gp).
Arrows/Bolts are sold in lots of 20, so you can buy masterwork ammunition versions of arrows in lots of 20.
Alchemical Cartridges are sold individually by the rules, so you can only buy them individually, even if they are masterwork. The special material prices for alchemical ammunition are all determined individually as well.
Firearm Bullets can be bought in lots of thirty.
Magical Ammunition is bought in lots of 50, no matter what the individual ammunition is available in. (assuming no special boons, or named ammunition is involved.)
In theory there's only two points I disagree with you on, which is masterwork and cold iron classification. Now we all agree that Hero Lab is not the end all to what is legal but when I try to buy cold iron or masterwork for that matter of any type of ammunition I can only do so in lots of 50 after choosing the magical properties tab. Why is that? Does Paizo promote/support Hero Lab? Per LWD http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=45153 "Yes. The license we have with Paizo is a royalty-based license. That means every sale of a Pathfinder core package or add-on results in a portion of the sales revenue going to Paizo." So you would think Paizo monitors/proofs Hero Lab's publications. Are there glitches in Hero Lab? Yes. However, separating the purchases of masterwork and cold iron ammunition under magical and lots of 50 only is not a 'glitch'. And that's why we've come full circle again. That of "Paizo, ruling please". Thanks again for your input Mr. Fox.
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Hero Labs is not a rule source and as such just because they require things to be done a certain way because of their coding does not mean that is the correct way. The Paizo rulings are the rules in the rulebooks, not the code in hero labs.
Special Materials do not require lots of fifty. They are priced based on the individual special material.
Cold Iron cost double the normal cost. That means that whatever you would pay for a individual lot cost twice as much.
Masterwork Cold Iron Arrows are sold as a 20 piece lot for 122gp.
Masterwork Cold Iron Paper Cartridge cost 30gp for 1 piece before gunsmithing price reduction.
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Hero Labs is not a rule source and as such just because they require things to be done a certain way because of their coding does not mean that is the correct way. The Paizo rulings are the rules in the rulebooks, not the code in hero labs.
Special Materials do not require lots of fifty. They are priced based on the individual special material.
Cold Iron cost double the normal cost. That means that whatever you would pay for a individual lot cost twice as much.
Masterwork Cold Iron Arrows are sold as a 20 piece lot for 122gp.
Masterwork Cold Iron Paper Cartridge cost 30gp for 1 piece before gunsmithing price reduction.
Right again, Hero Lab is not a rule source, see how we agree quite often? However, for Society play Additional Resources IS an official rules source, which states (and we agree here too but you forgot)(you must buy ammunition in full lots (typically 10 or 20 for mundane ammunition and 50 for magical ammunition). So EVEN if we classify masterwork or cold iron as 'mundane' we still can only buy it in minimal lots of 20. And since you "must" buy it in such lots would it not qualify as a 'single purchase' item, i.e. a quiver of 20 arrows or bandolier of 20 cartridges/bullets? I'm just curious as why Hero Lab lists masterwork and cold iron under magical purchases and only allows me to buy them in lots of 50 (undoubtedly the programmers are gifted enough to list them under mundane items, we hope). I bet someone from Paizo might know, I'm sure, like myself, that you do not Mr. Fox but I still like you (just not in that 'special' way).
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Cold iron arrows are bought in lots of 20. Correct. Because that's the size of an arrow lot.
Cold iron sling bullets are bought in lots of 10 because that's the size of an sling bullet lot.
Child iron paper cartridges are sold individually because paper cartridges are sold in lots of 1.
Those lots can be bought with prestige.
You can not buy a lot of 20 cold iron paper cartridges with prestige because that is not a legal lot.
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Cold iron arrows are bought in lots of 20. Correct. Because that's the size of an arrow lot.
Cold iron sling bullets are bought in lots of 10 because that's the size of an sling bullet lot.
Child iron paper cartridges are sold individually because paper cartridges are sold in lots of 1.
Those lots can be bought with prestige.
You can not buy a lot of 20 cold iron paper cartridges with prestige because that is not a legal lot.
I'm following you, I really am. You've almost got me convinced. However, I've just one nagging little issue that won't let it be. Why does Hero Lab force you to the magical section for cold iron anything, which of course would allow the purchasing of cold iron ammo in lots of 50 as a single item purchase. PAIZO, Help if you can!
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I'm following you, I really am. You've almost got me convinced. However, I've just one nagging little issue that won't let it be. Why does Hero Lab force you to the magical section for cold iron anything, which of course would allow the purchasing of cold iron ammo in lots of 50 as a single item purchase. PAIZO, Help if you can!Cold iron arrows are bought in lots of 20. Correct. Because that's the size of an arrow lot.
Cold iron sling bullets are bought in lots of 10 because that's the size of an sling bullet lot.
Child iron paper cartridges are sold individually because paper cartridges are sold in lots of 1.
Those lots can be bought with prestige.
You can not buy a lot of 20 cold iron paper cartridges with prestige because that is not a legal lot.
Fix it yourself. Herolab puts special materials for Everything in the top box. But you can easily add a material variant to the data files so it shows up as a normal item in lots of 1. Go to tools-> launch editor and mess around.
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Actually I seem to recall you can buy a scroll with multiple of the same spell on it .. (dont ask me where I saw it cause I havent had coffee yet) I dont see why you couldnt buy Lots of paper cartriges w/ PA as long as its the same Item
it certianly makes sense to me
against the guide ... maybe ... in the spirit .. Id say so ... IMHO this is a Mike question
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That's a question for hero lab people. Paizo doesn't answer questions about hero lab.
Thanks for staying with me, Mr. Fox. I got my answer from Mike Brock.
Edenwaith: Hi Mike, is there any rulings for the following question (relevant information precursory)
The Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play states: Items must be purchased at full value. You can’t buy broken weapons or armor; you can’t buy partially charged wands, rods, or staves; and you must buy ammunition in full lots (typically 10 or 20 for mundane ammunition and 50 for
magical ammunition).
Furthermore, Table 5-4: Generic Prestige Awards states: Once per session, you can acquire any single item of this cost or less from your faction by spending the appropriate number of Prestige Points. Items purchased this way are worth 0 gp and cannot be sold.
So, can you buy ammunition meeting the requirements in paragraph 1 (lots of 10 or 20 mundane and 50 for magical) with prestige points once per session as stated in paragraph 2?
Mike: Yes
Mike Brock
Organized Play Coordinator
Paizo Publishing, LLC
Sent from my iPad
Mike: Ignore my last answer. It's the 4 am hour locally. I just rechecked the Guide. You can obtain a single item worth up to 750gp, not that much gold to add to your spending.
Mike Brock
Organized Play Coordinator
Paizo Publishing, LLC
Sent from my iPad
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I interpret this as the masterwork and cold iron are mundane so to speak because that 1500gp total would only cost 150gp alluding to his "not that much gold to add to your spending." So again, the ammunition can be bought it lots but it doesn't matter because once it's divided by 10 the cost isn't worth the prestige and adding a magical +1 changes the dynamics tremendously adding serious gold and only dividing by 2 pushing the total above 750gp.
Thank you, Mr. Fox for logically debating with me instead of turning it into an attack of character. You da man.
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That's a question for hero lab people. Paizo doesn't answer questions about hero lab.Thanks for staying with me, Mr. Fox. I got my answer from Mike Brock.
Edenwaith: Hi Mike, is there any rulings for the following question (relevant information precursory)
The Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play states: Items must be purchased at full value. You can’t buy broken weapons or armor; you can’t buy partially charged wands, rods, or staves; and you must buy ammunition in full lots (typically 10 or 20 for mundane ammunition and 50 for
magical ammunition).
Furthermore, Table 5-4: Generic Prestige Awards states: Once per session, you can acquire any single item of this cost or less from your faction by spending the appropriate number of Prestige Points. Items purchased this way are worth 0 gp and cannot be sold.So, can you buy ammunition meeting the requirements in paragraph 1 (lots of 10 or 20 mundane and 50 for magical) with prestige points once per session as stated in paragraph 2?
Mike: Yes
Mike Brock
Organized Play Coordinator
Paizo Publishing, LLCSent from my iPad
Mike: Ignore my last answer. It's the 4 am hour locally. I just rechecked the Guide. You can obtain a single item worth up to 750gp, not that much gold to add to your spending.
Mike Brock
Organized Play Coordinator
Paizo Publishing, LLCSent from my iPad
-----------------------------------------------------------------------I interpret this as the masterwork and cold iron are mundane so to speak because that 1500gp total would only cost 150gp alluding to his "not that much gold to add to your spending." So again, the ammunition can be bought it lots but it doesn't matter because once it's divided by 10 the cost isn't worth the prestige and adding a magical +1 changes the dynamics tremendously adding serious gold and only dividing by 2 pushing the total above 750gp.
Thank you, Mr. Fox for logically debating with me instead of turning it into an attack of...
Sweet bejesus i'm going crazy. Alchemical Cartridges are 1/2 price regardless if they're magical or not. It's the bullets that are 10% cost. Therefore Masterwork Cold Iron Alchemical Cartridges (x50) cost 1500/2= 750gp. Working on talking Mike into allowing buying them in lots of 50 for prestige buying:) Wish me luck!
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Mike was confirming the rules in the guide.
You can buy ammunition in lots (lots are typically 10 or 20) for mundane, typically but not always.
A lot of ammunition can be considered a single item for purchase with prestige.
A lot is defined by how the items are sold in the rulebooks.
Firearms Bullets (30)
Arrows (20)
Bolts (20)
Sling Bullets (10)
Kestros Darts (10)
Shuriken (5)
Repeating Crossbow Bolt (5)
Alchemical Cartridges (1)
Firearm Bullets (1)
Ammunition can be Masterworked at a price of 6gp per piece of ammunition.
Special Materials follow then normal rules for that material.
So you can buy Masterworked cold iron ammunition with prestige, as long as you only buy one full lot. No more, no less.
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Mike was confirming the rules in the guide.
You can buy ammunition in lots (lots are typically 10 or 20) for mundane, typically but not always.
A lot of ammunition can be considered a single item for purchase with prestige.
A lot is defined by how the items are sold in the rulebooks.
Firearms Bullets (30)
Arrows (20)
Bolts (20)
Sling Bullets (10)
Kestros Darts (10)
Shuriken (5)
Repeating Crossbow Bolt (5)
Alchemical Cartridges (1)
Firearm Bullets (1)Ammunition can be Masterworked at a price of 6gp per piece of ammunition.
Special Materials follow then normal rules for that material.
So you can buy Masterworked cold iron ammunition with prestige, as long as you only buy one full lot. No more, no less.
This^^^^
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This^^^^Mike was confirming the rules in the guide.
You can buy ammunition in lots (lots are typically 10 or 20) for mundane, typically but not always.
A lot of ammunition can be considered a single item for purchase with prestige.
A lot is defined by how the items are sold in the rulebooks.
Firearms Bullets (30)
Arrows (20)
Bolts (20)
Sling Bullets (10)
Kestros Darts (10)
Shuriken (5)
Repeating Crossbow Bolt (5)
Alchemical Cartridges (1)
Firearm Bullets (1)Ammunition can be Masterworked at a price of 6gp per piece of ammunition.
Special Materials follow then normal rules for that material.
So you can buy Masterworked cold iron ammunition with prestige, as long as you only buy one full lot. No more, no less.
In that case, let us revisit lot sizes. Every other ranged class benefits from larger lots. Every other ranged class doesn't blink when buying cold iron ammunition (season five is going to suck the life out of gunslingers). Most ranged classes giggle when buying a Masterwork Darkwood Composite Longbow (+3 Str)(my puter almost ran out of ink typing all of that one), all casters benefit from stacking level 2 spell scrolls (same spell I know), etc. all for 2 PP. Gunslingers have the most ridiculous materials cost of any class and do not benefit from prestige spending where they could use it the most. I know fantasy world and real world don't have to correlate (especially if you bring up dragons and pixies) but when it comes to weapons pretty much everyone one of them were invented in the real world and then used introduced into fantasy settings. Having said that, how many hunting/gunshop stores have you walked into that's setup for you to buy a single bullet or cartridge? You buy them in boxes. Metal casing cartridges normally come in a box of 20, shot gun shells, which alchemical cartridges most resemble, come in boxes of 25. So what gunslinger walks into the local trading store and asks for one bullet? Gunslinger: Excuse me kind shop keep, can I please barter for a couple of those pistols, one of them double-barreled muskets, a 20-round bandolier, oh and 1 silver and cold iron bullet, and three of your standard rounds please. Thanks. What's that? Oh, I'm going to do a little demon hunting today and I may have a shoot out at high none and these bullets will come in handy. I'm getting a couple extra of the standard rounds you know because the high noon shootout is a fast draw contest and I tend to miss the first shot or two before my nerves calm enough to plink him in the eye, or her, equal opportunity killer you know.
Whew, ok, my puter really is out of ink now, think I'll go down to Wal-Mart and buy 1 lot to replace, hope they come in lots larger than 1 character's worth of ink:)
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@Edenwaith: Technically, in Golarion, there are no local stores that sell firearm bullets, unless you happen to be in Alkenstar.
Unfortunately, PFS has to abide by rules as they are written. The ammo lot sizes Jeffrey Fox quoted above are the ammuniton lot sizes set by the OGL Core Rules, other than the ones setup by Paizo when they created the gunslinger and firearms.
Really, for changing the firearm bullet and/or alchemical cartridge lot sizes is something that should be broached in the rules section of the forums, rather than trhe PFS section.
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@Edenwaith: Technically, in Golarion, there are no local stores that sell firearm bullets, unless you happen to be in Alkenstar.
Unfortunately, PFS has to abide by rules as they are written. The ammo lot sizes Jeffrey Fox quoted above are the ammuniton lot sizes set by the OGL Core Rules, other than the ones setup by Paizo when they created the gunslinger and firearms.
Really, for changing the firearm bullet and/or alchemical cartridge lot sizes is something that should be broached in the rules section of the forums, rather than trhe PFS section.
If you click on this link PFS FAQ you will find a whole bunch of 'rule changes' specific to PFS. Paizo did not go back and change the core books/rules to accomadate PFS. Buying ammo (our anything for that matter) with Prestige Points has nothing to do with the CRB, UC, or UE so asking for changes on lot sizes just for PFS is going to fall on deft ears. Therefore, any changes to what can be purchased with PP should fall within the Society pages. The only place the change would need to be 'updated' is on the Pathfinder Society Frequently Asked Questions page (that link I gave you earlier). When all is said and done I still may be wasting my time here but in the 'rules' section it's guaranteed a waste of time (i think). If it is truly a waste of time to post PFS specific rule debates here, maybe a kind-hearted soul society moderator will have it moved there and problem solved.
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@Edenwaith: Technically, in Golarion, there are no local stores that sell firearm bullets, unless you happen to be in Alkenstar.
Unfortunately, PFS has to abide by rules as they are written. The ammo lot sizes Jeffrey Fox quoted above are the ammuniton lot sizes set by the OGL Core Rules, other than the ones setup by Paizo when they created the gunslinger and firearms.
Really, for changing the firearm bullet and/or alchemical cartridge lot sizes is something that should be broached in the rules section of the forums, rather than trhe PFS section.
No worries, I went to the 'rules' section with a big'ol copy and paste so maybe it'll be addressed there too. It's called canvasing. It's how you get the vote out.
You know any other good places to pose this diatribe? The ink store did sell my ink in lots greater'n 1 so I can copy'n paste this puppy eber where.
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I know fantasy world and real world don't have to correlate (especially if you bring up dragons and pixies) but when it comes to weapons pretty much everyone one of them were invented in the real world and then used introduced into fantasy settings. Having said that, how many hunting/gunshop stores have you walked into that's setup for you to buy a single bullet or cartridge? You buy them in boxes. Metal casing cartridges normally come in a box of 20, shot gun shells, which alchemical cartridges most resemble, come in boxes of 25.
If you want to compare to real world items, alchemical paper cartridges actually most closely resemble paper cartridges, you know, from the 1500s. In the 1500s, there were no hunting shops or gunshops, and paper cartridges were not sold in boxes. (As an aside, paper cartridges predate the rapier, along with a whole host of other weapons that many people feel are perfectly appropriate for medieval fantasy while poo-pooing firearms.)
My understanding of how things work in Golarion, with firearms being an emerging technology (on par with 16th century Earth), is that gunslingers are not buying their paper cartridges from stores, but are instead assembling them themselves. (There aren't hunting stores and gunshops in Golarion at this time either.) With respect to PFS, that is why gunslingers with the Craft (alchemy) skill are afforded a discount on the list price of ammunition.
Gunslingers are given use of item crafting specifically to help defray the high cost of ammo. The trade off is that their ammo is bought individually instead of by the box. As a player of a gunslinger, I am perfectly happy with that compromise.
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Her's what I don't get. .. Why is this a problem?
I ask, having played a gunslinger through 10th level. Personally, I never even thought of. Using ammo with prestige until this thread came up. I still wouldn't do it.
Basically, I just bought more ammo than I used each chronicle. The only time I felt pinched was the first time (starting gold), and even then it wasn't much of an issue!
Basically, if you just assume your gunslinger is going to be spending 100gp per chronicle, you can budget for this. This goes up a little once you have iterative attacks and might be under haste, but 100gp still covers about 17 paper cartridges. Yeah, cold iron is more, but really only an issue with cartridges. If cost of these are an issue for you, I would suggest befriending someone who can cast Abundant Ammunition for you (maybe that'd be a good use for a wand purchase with PP).
As for ammo itself, we've got our ruling (thank you, Mike Brock).
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Worst cost I had was actually Rivalry's End...
I shot about 10 rounds of adamantine paper cartridges against the Clockwork Soldiers... and missed WAY too much for comfort. And the bad thing was that I actually had an Oil of Abundant Ammunition, but didn't feel like I had time to apply it!
Still, even with the my later sessions (at higher levels, being the recipient of Haste or Blessing of Fervor, etc), I have never actually gone through more than about 20-30 rounds. Even going though 250gp in ammo is no big deal at these levels (as Nefreet stated, less than a 2nd level potion!).
Most wizards can blow through way more than this in an encounter. Your average barbarian at this level can chew through the better part of a CLW wand (which averages 275hp healed/wand) at a cost of 750gp/2PP.
Its all in what your character does.
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And, in case your Gunslinger doesn't have the ability to cast spells themselves, you can take care of things with a friendly spellcaster, and a couple of items:
Wand of Abundant Ammunition (2 PP per wand, 50 castings)
Cracked purprle prism Ioun stone (2000 go, acts a s a spell storing item for a single level of spell)
Have a spellcaster with AA on their spell list use the wand between encounters to fill the Ioun stone, use the Ioun stone yourself to cast AA on your ammo supply.
Rinse and repeat.
Note that AA is on a lot fo spell lists, and there is always UMD if needed. The Ioun stone is to avoind the round tax during combat of getting that 20 on your UMD check, or having a spellcaster burn his Standard on your ammo.
Do note, Jeffrey Fox, that you should have used mure bullets (or other ammo), for the casting, since I seem to recall the material component, not the focus, for AA is an arrow.
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Do note, Jeffrey Fox, that you should have used mure bullets (or other ammo), for the casting, since I seem to recall the material component, not the focus, for AA is an arrow.
It's a M/DF spell. The Divine Focus replaces the M for classes that use the DF. Which since I have a level of Cleric would be my character.
So my cost are accurate.
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Worst cost I had was actually Rivalry's End...
** spoiler omitted **
Still, even with the my later sessions (at higher levels, being the recipient of Haste or Blessing of Fervor, etc), I have never actually gone through more than about 20-30 rounds. Even going though 250gp in ammo is no big deal at these levels (as Nefreet stated, less than a 2nd level potion!).
Most wizards can blow through way more than this in an encounter. Your average barbarian at this level can chew through the better part of a CLW wand (which averages 275hp healed/wand) at a cost of 750gp/2PP.
Its all in what your character does.
With me it was was The Golem Works Incident.
Too many damn constructs! I had like 15 adamantine bullets at the beginning and NONE at the end. Along with 10 adamantine paper cartridges. A handful of normal rounds (10 to 12), a handful of paper cartridges.
Golems suck. But damn.. that durn earth elemental was a bullet sponge DR 10/- is evil!
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Bolts (20)Bolts for Crossbows are sold in lots of 10 (quiver), rather than 20.
Weird, I don't know why that error snuck in, but it's in a couple of my post in the thread. Must have been fat fingers on small keyboard coupled with bad proof reading since it looks like I did refrence the charts for the rest of the prices.