You might also think about offering a rebuild or two if people want. For instance, if the Wizard focuses on blasting, offer him a rebuild that allows Blasting to also function as a battlefield control (Admixture Wizard using the Rime/Dazing metamagic feats).
If he doesn't want that, consider dropping some metamagic rods of Dazing spell for the group to use. This helps the blasting wizard contribute more to the fight by taking people out of the fight for a short time.
For the healing item you want to drop, I suggest something more akin to the 3E staffs. Something with like 20 charges and a list of spells that it can use. However, each spell cast uses up a number of charges equal to the spell level.
Some spells like Heal, Break Enchantment, Remove Curse, Cure X, etc. would be good choices.
For the healing item you want to drop, I suggest something more akin to the 3E staffs. Something with like 20 charges and a list of spells that it can use. However, each spell cast uses up a number of charges equal to the spell level.
Some spells like Heal, Break Enchantment, Remove Curse, Cure X, etc. would be good choices.
Not a bad idea, but I'll also need a recharge mechanic or this is a 20-charge throwaway staff.
In any case, whoever gets stuck with it becomes a part-time heal-bot anyway and won't be killing or blasting. The whole point of everyone having damage dealing monster slayers was the fact that none of them want to be a healer, so sticking one of them with healing item would defeat that purpose.
so, if they survive their current trap, I think I'll recommend they find themselves some kind of healer NPC and offer him a share of the party loot. Then they can be a 6-man group capable of surviving this AP instead of a 5-man group that won't, and I won't have to edit most of the even battles to make them surviveable for them - heck, I will probably have to edit them to make them challenging for 6 characters.
Hi guys, I play the fighter in Blake's game. One of the things that seems to have been overlooked here is that we are about 1/2 the WBL at this point. We are about 60,000 gold per character and should be around 18,000 gold?
This is because we weren't advancing with XP but story award. After we finished Occipitus chapter we were 10th level. Blake had us bump up our PC's to 12th level. Then plane shifting (heading home) we were 'intercepted' and plunked down in this rather lethal place. So our resources aren't quite up to par either.
That's a good point about WBL, but also remember that you're gaining wealth intended for 4 PCs but dividing it by 5. So it's partly by design.
It is, however, worth noting that this will make challenges a bit tougher.
Oops that was supposed to be 180,000 gold not 18,000.
... They are obviously a group that is used to having a dedicated first-aid station as a crutch...
I would say this is the key right here.
Not all, but definitely some people get very used to healer services.
Plus clerics have many of the best buffs in the game (like communal resist energy). Is the wizard stepping up to do the buffing or are the players buying potions of X to do their own buffing?
Since there is no one to remove status effects (like paralyzation), do the builds have good saving throws? Do they have decent AC or evasion tactics to try and keep from getting hit.?
Or do they all have glass cannon builds, concentrate solely on doing damage, and wade right into melee no matter the situation?
What you might want to do is spend a session with some conversation about the situation. Point out the fact that tactics may have to change since they have different resources. Run through some practice fights with the exact same enemies they beat in the past (when they had the band-aid). Give them a chance to see how they do on a repeat. Talk about some of the other things they might try. Do it again to see if they can improve their performance.
This would give them a chance to see that their tactics might need to change. "Wow, we didn't have any problem with those guys before." And will give them a chance to figure how to change their tactics.
That's a good point about WBL, but also remember that you're gaining wealth intended for 4 PCs but dividing it by 5. So it's partly by design.
It is, however, worth noting that this will make challenges a bit tougher.
APs are designed around a 4-man party. If you increase the party size at all, you have to account for that. Introducing a 5th man, means some of the encounters may need an extra bad guy or two, and that there needs to be extra wealth to account for that 5th guy.
As for the 20 charge Healing item, allow some of the spell casters to sacrifice spells to re-charge it, similar to the Pathfinder staves, or, just make it a daily use item. Each morning at dawn, the item replenishes it's charges.
Having way lower WBL might be the real culprit with the groups issues. Lower AC, Lower Resistance bonuses, Lower damage all added together.
Add in that while I don't think a dedicated healer is necessary, this is a lot of 'low tier' classes, and that complicates things. Replace the fighter with a Paladin or Ranger, the Arcane Archer with an archer bard, the rogue with a vivisectionist, and have the monk be a specialized monk archetype (and qinggong of course) or an inquisitor and it would be a whole different thing.
The parties classes are fine classes, and can be a lot of fun, but they are not real flexible, so the don't adapt so well to a non-traditional balance.
And I will also say, as noted above, they need to figure out how to make an anvil, hammer, and arms. The rogue pretty much has to be a hammer, with a bit of arms via items, the fighter can be a hammer or a anvil if he has reach weapon and the right feats, a grappling/tripping monk or other specialized build can be an anvil as well. Arcane Archer can make do any of them, with the right spells, but probably has built (and is being played) just as a hammer, and of course a Wizard can do anything, but also seems to want to just be a hammer.
Yeah, the CR system depends on WBL, the higher level the party gets. That's why NPCs with full PC WBL have a higher CR than those with NPC wealth, for example. An undergeared party is similar to a party with fewer than four people in the kinds of challenges they can expect to defeat.
The adventure expects the PCs to have higher saves, AC, to-hit bonuses and access to consumables than they can at half-WBL. Part of your no-healer problem goes away if they don't get damaged or fail their saves as often.
Personally I like the healing item and NPC solution. I feel like this would require the least amount of modifications.
Have you considered an intelligent item? Staff could possibly activate itself so that no specific player would be responsible for being the heal monkey. Perhaps it could recharge when having arcane or divine spells put into it, still using up player resources but acting as a converter of sorts?
Anyway, just an idea. Certainly a powerful tool to give the party, but as long as you control the personality of the magic item I think it isn't something that could be very heavily abused.
The WBL is not the problem.
First, they JUST hit level 12. That is 108,000, not 180,000. For 4 characters that is 432,000 total for the party. Divided by 5, that should put them around 86,000 each. The two new guys are coming in a bit light at around 60k but the rest are closer to that 86k target, so they're not too far off.
Also, the existing characters all have abilities above and beyond normal characters, something I like to do in long-term games. We have a lycanthrope with the usual DR and immunities and other benefits, a half-dragon with many benefits from that, and a wizard with a silver dragon for a familiar, far outstripping normal familiars in every way. Our healer had divine power to infuse all of her spells beyond normal (auto-fail saves, auto-max rolls, etc.). She's gone and the two new characters don't have "super-powers" yet; need a bit of time to work that into their new characters.
So, really, the party is within about 10% of the expected loot they should have, plus some extraordinary abilities on top of that, so I don't think WBL is a real factor here.
I don't think they are a good group tactically. They are obviously a group that is used to having a dedicated first-aid station as a crutch.
As opposed to a group who relies on a rogue to find traps or a tank to block foes and do damage or a arcanist to do battlefield control ... "as a crutch"? The game is designed for a 4 PC team and one of the roles is divine caster, which includes healing yes, but also removes conditions, does party boosting and can even lay down some hurt when needed.
Saying that you "don't think they are a good group tactically. They are obviously a group that is used to having a dedicated first-aid station as a crutch. " is like saying someone who "tries to get all of a color group in Monopoly is relying on getting a monopoly as a crutch" and uses "poor tactics". Or that uses ski poles while skiing is "using a crutch". Divine casters are a integral part of the game and have been so since it first came out. They are not a ‘crutch" any more than having a battlefield control wizard is a crutch.
OTOH Dave, you make a good point about the classes. Here a paladin would be better than a fighter, archer bard would be great, etc.
The WBL is not the problem.
First, they JUST hit level 12. That is 108,000, not 180,000. For 4 characters that is 432,000 total for the party. Divided by 5, that should put them around 86,000 each. The two new guys are coming in a bit light at around 60k but the rest are closer to that 86k target, so they're not too far off.
Also, the existing characters all have abilities above and beyond normal characters, something I like to do in long-term games. We have a lycanthrope with the usual DR and immunities and other benefits, a half-dragon with many benefits from that, and a wizard with a silver dragon for a familiar, far outstripping normal familiars in every way. So, really, the party is within about 10% of the expected loot they should have, plus some extraordinary abilities on top of that, so I don't think WBL is a real factor here.
I agree. I don't see where +1 to Ac and saves would have changed the outcome that much.
OK I'm wrong about WBL. I didn't have the book there to check.
The 'super powers' thing you have restricted so we can 'grow into them'.
I'm more like a 1/3 dragon. Breath water, swim faster, +1 natural armor, and spit a line of acid 3 times a day for 3d6 (DC 14 reflex). While these are nice to have, they don't seem to be very useful against most of the things we encounter.
I don't know what the lycanthrope/rogue/cleric of Cayden has for 'super powers' other than everyone smells like 'pork' and some DR (?)/silver.
His best power is changing water into beer so far.
The small silver dragon usually does nothing in fights anymore because he is heavily outgunned by everything and the wizard doesn't want him to die. He used to be quite useful many levels ago but this doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
I don't know, maybe we aren't as good at this game as you think we are Blake.
As may have already been mentioned, a group of 4 Mohrgs or Witchfires is technically a CR 12-13 encounter...it's a DIFFICULT CR 12-13 encounter. Personally when involving anything that's Incorporeal or has Paralysis I mentally add an extra +1 CR at least to the encounter, because the CR system doesn't account very well for "Hey, everyone's doing half damage and their armor is useless!" or "Coordinated save or die (effectively) barrage!".
If you need to scale the encounters back, do so. That doesn't mean you can't use interesting monsters...just don't use solid groups of interesting monsters that are so close to the party's level already.
If the group doesn't want you to scale the encounters back, let 'em have it. At that point they've forfeited their right to complain (to your face, anyway) if they die. =)
First, I think it's slightly too difficult for them as their armor become useless, attack deals half damage. They have to rely on spell caster to keep the group survive.
Personally when I set up an encounter, I first look at how much I know about the players and their character. You need to know what the players would do and how the characters react to the encounter. Example, I need to set up a boss fight. My group has a ranger, barbarian and a druid. Druid is the smartest, then Ranger is decent with more knowledge, barbarian is playing by a 7 years old kid and act silly all the time. So I set up the fight for them to fight the boss and the creep in different time. First they fight the boss to see how well they did. (Also because they sneak in very well.) The boss was hard, it was too much for them when there were all level 2. However, the Druid was smart so he was able to keep the team alive in the boss fight by just level 0 spells. Eventually they made it. Then the creeps comes in, there were like countless of them. Lucky there were in the room with a bottle neck, so the druid's companion could blocked most of them from coming it. Meanwhile ranger and barbarian took out most of them. At the end, I know they can't take anymore so I had the creeps flee.
Shoot.. wish i had your problem. I designed an encounter to specifically wipe my group. I tried to do it without being obvious (story purposes they would not have "died". The group was all level 9. Alchemist, ranger, cleric, paladin and sorcerer. They fought 8 Warforged Crane style monks with return arrows. They were ONLY supposed to be be able to MAYBE win, focusing fire on each monk since it could ignore one melee and one ranged EVERY TURN while returning 2 attacks for free. Somehow they chewed the entire fight up in less then 10 rounds with no one below half hp... I even had the "leader" run off and activate his "clone" they got monkey stomped together.