Goblin Squad Member
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I really doubt this question will be answered outside a blog but I wanted to throw it out there because it's one if the most important questions that hasn't been asked yet.
But to get the discussion flowing:
1. What crafting / gathering skills do you consider to be part of the Minimum Viable Product?
2. Which crafting gathering skills do you intend to train? (On any and every character you'll create on or before OE)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Gathering Skill Minimum: Mining, Herbalism, Skinning. Those are the three I consider vitally important. Most things I can immediately think of can be slotted into one of those three. Mining obviously covers metals, gems, raw stone. Herbalism covers herbs, woodcutting, farm crops. Skinning covers animal skins, specific animal parts.
Crafting Skill Minimum: Weapon and Armour Smithing (either split or together), Fletching (including Bowyery), Leatherworking, Tailoring, Alchemy. Edit: Forgot something for the magical users. Maybe rename Fletching to Woodwork and throw staves in there. Those cover what I consider mandatory. There are plenty of things that you can build on top of that (Masonry, Woodworking, etc.) but I feel that those five cover the basics.
If I do make my twin a crafter then he will probably be skinning/leatherworker.
I know that crafting is already largely decided in how it is happening, but I would really, really, REALLY encourage Goblinworks to look at the crafting in FF14. It is by far the best crafting system in any game I have ever played. Except maybe SWG. It is the only game that I am happy logging into for a night and only doing crafting.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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At the bare minimum, I would say that a wood, metal, stone, leather, and food cycle are required, with all of those resources being required to construct even basic buildings.
By the time basic buildings are being built, there needs to be multiple types of each of those resources, with advanced buildings requiring specific types of wood, metal, stone, and/or leather such that few (if any) advanced buildings can be constructed entirely with local materials anywhere.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We know we get fighters, rogues, wizards, and clerics so...
1.
Armorsmithing
Weapon-smithing
Bow making
Staff crafting
Leatherworking
Tailoring
Jewelry-smithing (For holy symbols)
Scribing (For spell books)
Mining
Woodcutting
Tanning
Farming or Herb Gathering (For cotton)
2. I might do farming on my Destiny's Twin.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. What crafting / gathering skills do you consider to be part of the Minimum Viable Product?
One of the truly brilliant aspects of the XP-over-Time system is that they can release the Minimally Viable Product with only the "tier 1" Crafting and Gathering systems. So, I expect there to be quite a bit of breadth, but not much depth.
2. Which crafting gathering skills do you intend to train? (On any and every character you'll create on or before OE)
I have to admit, in most of the games I've played, I've crafted and harvested primarily because it was a a big hole on my character sheet. I think I'm going to rely on others a lot more in PFO than I have before. I know there are a lot of T7V folks who are really into Crafting as their primary play-style.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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1. What crafting / gathering skills do you consider to be part of the Minimum Viable Product?One of the truly brilliant aspects of the XP-over-Time system is that they can release the Minimally Viable Product with only the "tier 1" Crafting and Gathering systems. So, I expect there to be quite a bit of breadth, but not much depth.
I'm slightly hoping for a system that follows the pattern/prerequisite:
Level 1-2: everything
Level 2-4: weapons
Level 4-6: Melee weapons
Level 7-8: Metal melee weapons
Level 9-10: Metal blades
Level 11-12: Swords
Level 13-14: One-handed swords
Level 15-16: Longswords
Level 17-20: Elven Longswords
A character who was 20 in elven longsword crafting in this exact pattern would be level 14 when making a shortswords, 12 when making a greatsword, 8 when making a flanged mace, 6 when making quarterstaves, 4 when making bows, and 2 when making rings. He could take level 3 wondrous item crafting, level 4 ranged weapons, level 9 metal bludgeon, or level 17 dwarven longswords as the next skill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Decius, I would much rather see a system where a character could be skill level 1 or skill level 20 or anywhere in between in making swords. I'd also like to see a system that allowed a character to specialize in making metal armor footwear, without ever having to explicitly learn anything about metal armor gloves (unless that was just an expedient way to increase whatever attribute governs making metal armor).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like Decius's idea for what amounts to inverted pyramids, with branching choices as you go up the tree. I'd think that any one specific item that has a quality number associated with it would have a level 20 equivalent skill attached to it, and quality could be directly related to crafter skill (while also being modified by other factors, including facilities and materials used). For this example we say our crafter has only this specific skill tree trained up, and we'll just relate weapon quality to crafter skill instead of throwing in the 1-300 quality scale (to get the weapon's base quality, just multiply the level of the item by 15, assuming a simple linear relationship).
This guy could make you a level 20 elven longsword; cool deal. However, if you wanted an orcish longsword, he could only do level 16, because the highest level relevant skill he has trained is longswords at 16. If you wanted a dwarven warhammer, he could only give a level 8 weapon. And if you wanted any kind of metal armor it would be a measly level 2.
This means a crafter can branch out early to make a huge variety of things, but only make low-mid quality versions of each thing until he specializes more. Alternatively, he can shoot straight for max quality in one specific item, and be able to make a lot of similar items of good quality (but not max until he trains that too), but won't have the same amount of diversity in items craftable. I personally feel like such a system would be better than "train 1 to 20 in swords, then 1 to 20 in daggers, etc." as it makes more sense to me and makes it so a specific crafter doesn't have to be a one-trick pony to make quality items.
I think the fact that this system would give you training in some items "inadvertently" while you train for one specific one is actually a benefit of the system; the items that you become better at crafting are going to be closely related to the item you're specializing in, so it only makes sense that your character can do some crafting of the other items. Note that you don't have to lose any time toward training toward 'metal armor gloves' to receive benefits toward crafting 'metal armor shoes', because both of them will use the same training up to a point.
DISCLAIMER: This is just elaborating on a possible way to do crafting skill trees. I'm not saying this is how it's going to be done, or that this is the only way it could be done. I just like this idea and want to play with it a little and compare it to a more usual crafting approach.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm getting the impression that Shane Gifford and Lhan both understand something obvious about Decius's suggestion that I'm failing to understand.
In order to train "Melee weapons", what skill has to be Level 4-6?
I think it's about starting general and getting specific... if you want. You could stick around the mid-levels and learn to be a very broadly-skilled generalist, or aim for a speciality and thus end up with fewer general skills which were necessary to get you there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Keovar, you sound like you're understanding it along the same lines as Shane and Lhan, and I get it in vague principles, but my question still stands.
What actual skill is level 4-6?
Is there a "Crafting" skill that has to be level 4 before you can start making Metal Weapons, and then a Metal Weapons skill that picks up from there?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Think of each level as a skill that is a prerequisite for all the skills branching off above (below?) it, and above them in turn. All blacksmiths have to start learning how to make nails, for example. After a fairly short time they may choose to specialise in weapons - or armour, or trade goods, or construction materials. The weaponsmith the specialises further and further by adding XP to the next skill along the branch, as Decius proposes. But at any point he could stop - say at Decius' level 15 Longswords - go back down the tree (or up - I am confused about this, obviously!) to level 7, and start training in blunt weapons with the aim of specialising in maces as well.
I think this is what Decius meant. It's certainly how I understood it. I would also add that I would expect each further branch to cost significantly more XP than the one before it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At the bare minimum, I would say that a wood, metal, stone, leather, and food cycle are required, with all of those resources being required to construct even basic buildings.
+1
In the MVP, scrolls and spellbooks could be parchment (ie. leather), all clothing leather and potions be 'food'.
In the next tier: herbs, paper, gems, cloth and jewelry.
+1 also to Decius inverted skill pyramid. Something very similar is used in Ryzom and I liked it for all kinds of reasons.
I typically end up as leatherworker and like crafting utility items.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the Decius system, for the example provided I suppose the character could make leather armor lvl 2, shortbows lvl 4 and warhammers lvl 8.
It would be possible for that character to next spend XP on "ranged weapons lvl 4-6", followed by "thrown weapons lvl 7-8" and make a lvl 8 throwing axe or a lvl 6 crossbow.
Am I interpreting it correctly?
(lvls to be translated to the appropriate item tier of course)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Keovar, you sound like you're understanding it along the same lines as Shane and Lhan, and I get it in vague principles, but my question still stands.
What actual skill is level 4-6?
Is there a "Crafting" skill that has to be level 4 before you can start making Metal Weapons, and then a Metal Weapons skill that picks up from there?
short answer: yes.
At least in the Ryzom system, skills branch.
In PFO some skills are requirements for other skills; essentially same thing.
Alternatively the focus could be on the methods and not the product, so that the tree becomes:
-coarse blacksmithing (nails, horseshoes, simple shapes)
-fine blacksmithing (complex shapes)
-bladesmithing (knives, spearheads, sharp edges)
-swordsmithing (long blades, hilts)
-longsword design specialist (balance vs strength)
-elven longsword secrets
Every tier requires the one above. Other skill trees also branch off at every step: armors from coarse smithing (?), trapmaking and jewelry from finesmithing, axes spears and arrowheads from bladesmithing, shortsword design from swordsmithing etc.
The point is that a elven longsword master is not automatically a master arrowsmith, but has many of the prerequisite skills for becoming one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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All blacksmiths have to start learning how to make nails, for example.
I seriously hope that's not the way it works. I've been quite hopeful all along that each recipe is a separate skill, and that we can choose exactly which recipes we want. I know there will be prerequisites, but I really hope they're not of the style where you progress from boots -> gloves -> arms -> leggings -> torso -> helmet, or anything of that sort.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think you are missing the point of what I said. Boots and gloves are arguably at the same level in the hierarchy - but to learn either you first need to spend XP to learn how to cure leather. Think of making nails as learning how to work a bellows and pour molten metal - a general and very basic skill you need to delve further. The nails are just a by product.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have just reread what you wrote and realised that I fundamentally disagree with your first statement. I hope recipes (for want of a better word) and skills are completely discreet. That is, you can make that longsword at level 7 (to go back to Decius' example) but if you want to make a top quality one, you'll have to specialise in it ie pay the XP and take the specific longsword skill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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All blacksmiths have to start learning how to make nails, for example.I seriously hope that's not the way it works. I've been quite hopeful all along that each recipe is a separate skill, and that we can choose exactly which recipes we want. I know there will be prerequisites, but I really hope they're not of the style where you progress from boots -> gloves -> arms -> leggings -> torso -> helmet, or anything of that sort.
My RL blacksmithing experience is around 15 minutes of hands-on. I can make nails and hooks (ie bent nails). It is not a 'recipe'.
The point of Decius, Lhan and others is precisely that glovemaking should not require bootmaking, but both require some basic leatherworking. The inverted pyramid scheme goes from general skills to specialized skills.
I think recipes should be skills (and not items). But not organized in artificial linear 'progressions'. The legendary elven swordsmith isn't interested in your spearhead making skills, he wants to see your masterwork longswords before taking you on as apprentice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The point of Decius, Lhan and others is precisely that glovemaking should not require bootmaking...
Thanks. I realized that I had a fundamental misunderstanding - probably as a result of viewing it from an odd perspective - but if that's the case then I'm very happy with it.
I think recipes should be skills (and not items). But not organized in artificial linear 'progressions'.
This is exactly the point I was trying to make :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Lhan, in the above example you would train "general smithing" first (what Decius wrote as everything IMO should just entail all smithing). This wouldn't just give you the ability to make nails; it would give the ability to make weapons , armor, tools, nails, and other smithable items, all at once. However, the particular items you can make can only go up to level 2 (or quality 30), which is a very shoddy quality item!
This could (and IMO should) be limited quite a bit if you don't want to give people the ability to make everything at level 2. Maybe you can only make the most simple smithable weapons (only spearheads, for example) until you specialize further into smithable weapons, the most simple smithable armor (studs for studded leather only), and so on.
The way I envision the system you'd 'unlock' the recipes well before you reach the top-end crafting skill tied to the recipe, but your items can only reach the peak of their quality by taking that specific skill. So maybe elven longswords can be crafted once you get to 'one handed swords' (provided other prerequisites for unlocking the recipe are met), giving such weapons a quality range of level 13-20, with the people at the higher end of that spectrum the ones that took the skill tree listed above. Of course that range would be adjusted for each item.
Maybe earlier items also could 'cap off' quicker, so that a basic longsword can only reach quality 14, for example, and the smith would have to find a recipe for better longswords to make a better one. Or maybe every item that has quality can reach the max quality level. Really, there's a lot of ways this system could be played with and adjusted.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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@Keovar, you sound like you're understanding it along the same lines as Shane and Lhan, and I get it in vague principles, but my question still stands.
What actual skill is level 4-6?
Is there a "Crafting" skill that has to be level 4 before you can start making Metal Weapons, and then a Metal Weapons skill that picks up from there?
Kind of. There's a "crafting" skill that has two ranks, and must be at rank 2 to learn the weapon crafting skill, which has two ranks (those ranks are 3 and 4), then each skill up has two ranks, at a higher and higher level but applying to fewer and fewer items.
That avoids the possibility that someone could be perfect at making steel gauntlets but completely useless at making metal bracers without putting too much on the same skill. It also has interesting implications regarding the marginal costs of characters with different existing skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Lhan, in the above example you would train "general smithing" first (what Decius wrote as everything IMO should just entail all smithing). This wouldn't just give you the ability to make nails; it would give the ability to make weapons , armor, tools, nails, and other smithable items, all at once. However, the particular items you can make can only go up to level 2 (or quality 30), which is a very shoddy quality item!
This could (and IMO should) be limited quite a bit if you don't want to give people the ability to make everything at level 2. Maybe you can only make the most simple smithable weapons (only spearheads, for example) until you specialize further into smithable weapons, the most simple smithable armor (studs for studded leather only), and so on.
The way I envision the system you'd 'unlock' the recipes well before you reach the top-end crafting skill tied to the recipe, but your items can only reach the peak of their quality by taking that specific skill. So maybe elven longswords can be crafted once you get to 'one handed swords' (provided other prerequisites for unlocking the recipe are met), giving such weapons a quality range of level 13-20, with the people at the higher end of that spectrum the ones that took the skill tree listed above. Of course that range would be adjusted for each item.
Maybe earlier items also could 'cap off' quicker, so that a basic longsword can only reach quality 14, for example, and the smith would have to find a recipe for better longswords to make a better one. Or maybe every item that has quality can reach the max quality level. Really, there's a lot of ways this system could be played with and adjusted.
That's what I was trying to get at exactly, except for the better recipe bit. I think items - and maybe keywords - should be linked to recipes, and quality to skill levels. Otherwise we are on the same page.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Kind of. There's a "crafting" skill that has two ranks, and must be at rank 2 to learn the weapon crafting skill, which has two ranks (those ranks are 3 and 4), then each skill up has two ranks, at a higher and higher level but applying to fewer and fewer items.That avoids the possibility that someone could be perfect at making steel gauntlets but completely useless at making metal bracers without putting too much on the same skill. It also has interesting implications regarding the marginal costs of characters with different existing skills.
I really like that notion. Everything should probably be broken down a little more though. Knowing how to make a great chair doesn't mean you know the first thing on how to make a terrible dagger. Crafting by material may be better. Blacksmithing, Woodworking, Tailoring/Leathercraft. Or by broad item type such as Weapon, Armor, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Kind of the way I was originally interpreting the system Decius proposed is at level 4-6 melee weapons you can make every melee weapon at quality 4-6 including metal melee weapons eleven longswords etc. when you raise metal melee weapons from 7-8 then just weapons in that category go from 7-8.
Also from my understanding there is no metal melee weapons 1-6, just the broader categories underneath it. I'd like to see it represented in a way that is more simple to understand, and I think metal melee weapons should be under black-smithing instead of melee weapon creation, but the general idea is good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Imagine the crafting system as a tree with each recipe being the termination of a branch; the "height" of a branch/termination corresponds with the "level requirement"; each split in a branch is a skill, go one way, you have learned one skill, go another you learned a different one. At the bottom most level (the trunk), the skills learned are required for almost if not all future recipes.
As you progress up the tree, there will be major branches, focus on one to the exclusion of the other, or progress slowly up all of them. You could even spend all your time training the skills, traversing the non-terminal branches and never bothering to learn recipes (which would be purchased like abilities) until you get to the ones that interest you.
This is how I would like to see it...and it seems reconcilable with Decius's suggestion.
EDIT: I also agree that crafting should be classified based on the method of crafting versus the type of craft. I would even prefer a system that has my trees above intermingling. A plate armor recipe might require x skills in blacksmithing (metal pieces), y skills in leatherworking (leather straps and joints), and z skills in tailoring (undergarments and padding). This recipe, in the tree model, would sit on the termination of three branches from three trees, then would either require the combined efforts of crafters with all those prerequisites met (social interaction, crafting as a team effort?), or a single individual, someone who has trained up all those branches.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Imagine the crafting system as a tree with each recipe being the termination of a branch; the "height" of a branch/termination corresponds with the "level requirement";
This is kind of the way I saw it at first. But doesn't this mean that you can never be Skill Level 1 with Elven Longswords? And you can never be Skill Level 20 with Metal Blades? That seems weird to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You can be skill level 20 with metal blades. What that means is that you go into the various branches of Metal blades and buy every single skill in it. Then, anything categorized under metal blades you can make level 20.
You can make an elven longsword level 1 (as long as level 1 elven longswords are a thing). When you take the Blacksmithing skill first level, you gain the ability to make really crappy elven longswords, along with really crappy versions of a lot of other things.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Imagine the crafting system as a tree with each recipe being the termination of a branch; the "height" of a branch/termination corresponds with the "level requirement";This is kind of the way I saw it at first. But doesn't this mean that you can never be Skill Level 1 with Elven Longswords? And you can never be Skill Level 20 with Metal Blades? That seems weird to me.
Think in terms of general skills for quality and specialized skills (=recipes) for designs and keywords.
"Bladesmithing level 20" would give me the ability to turn q300 materials into a generic q300 longsword.
"Elven longsword design level 1" would allow me to add keywords 'light', 'agile', 'sharp', 'masterwork' and/or 'mithril' to the longsword template.
The first twist is that "elven longsword design level 1" may have "bladesmithing level 16" as prerequisite. (or maybe much lower, that isn't the point)
The second twist is that (say) having 'masterwork' plus two other keywords requires a q300 weapon.
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In this system, specializations become more important as skill increases, yet a master of one style can fairly easy shift to a new one This is analogous to class skills - fighter picking up barbarian already has the generic fighting abilities).
In this system it might also be possible to make 'hybrid' styles by combining keywords from different styles. I believe greatsword suitable for sneak attack was mentioned in the past.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Imagine the crafting system as a tree with each recipe being the termination of a branch; the "height" of a branch/termination corresponds with the "level requirement";This is kind of the way I saw it at first. But doesn't this mean that you can never be Skill Level 1 with Elven Longswords? And you can never be Skill Level 20 with Metal Blades? That seems weird to me.
First off, this is why I would like to separate skill levels and recipes. That way you don't have to look at things from that angle.
Think of it this way. Nobody in their right mind is going to try to make an elven blade with no smithing skill at all. They just couldn't do it. So we'll set a minimum (for argument's sake) level of smithing skill at 6 on the Decius Scale to make one (that's coarse blacksmithing -> fine blacksmithing -> blade smithing to use Randomwalker's refinement). At that level anyone can make an elven blade (or attempt to) providing they can find the recipe, but their maximum skill level is not going to produce a particularly fine weapon (level 6 * 15 = max Q90) . All blacksmiths that get this far down the tree will be able to produce pretty rough and ready blades usable in emergencies for settlement defence, but they won't exactly be making a name for themselves as the finest swordsmiths in the River Kingdoms. Those that choose to go further down that path by taking swordsmithing and then longsword design specialist will produce significantly better blades than those who do not (level 16 * 15 = max Q240) . Those who train Elven longsword secrets will produce phenomenally good blades at times (max Q300 at max level with the best possible mats). Under these circumstances, they will effectively be at level 20 for metal blades. But if they need to make a broadsword, they'll drop down to level 14, because they haven't specialised in broadsword design specialist, so although they are just as skilled in working the metal, they don't understand the finer points of a broadsword's balance and making a much wider blade (max Q210 now). This could allow for all sorts of synergies and requirements and get as complicated as you like - there could be a separate skill for creating hilts, which might add max quality to the work or there could be other prereqs such as Elven metal crafting.
If "recipes" are kept separate from this, a blacksmith might have the skills to make something, but not know how to do it properly yet. For example our swordsmith might not yet be able to make spears - although he would need to spend no more XP to make basic ones - because he had not found or bought the recipe yet. In fact, if we get away from the idea of a recipe, and consider it as making/obtaining the right tools for this particular job as well as the know-how, the need for a new "recipe" becomes easier to understand. Keywords could also be treated as "recipes", so different smiths would be able to add different keywords despite them being at the same point in the crafting tree skill (XP) wise. This also means that there could be a trade in recipes (item and keyword), some of which might be rarer drops from escalations or researched by player activity. That too would increase player choice and interaction.
This may be too complicated - but I don't think this or something like it is beyond PfO. The richer the system, the more people will get out of it (and put into it). I really hope it's not a simple case of pick your next skill (longsword) and level it 1 - 300.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@randomwalker, the specific way you described bladesmithing wasn't how I saw it, but that could certainly be a way to do it.
Yes, sorry, I was suggesting a variation. There are many ways of doing it right I think, and until devs come with tangible info we should explore different ideas.
It might be interesting to list what exactly we want the system to achieve before wading into details on how to best achieve that. (ex: 'we want top crafters to specialize', 'mastering a craft should require [x]% as much effort as mastering a class').
If there is agreement on what to achieve, the rest is just an optimization problem.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's a very good point. I'd like to see generalization be easier than specialization, and getting every type of craft under wraps should be just as involved (if not more so) than getting every skill in a class. My 2c for those.
I prefer "mastering a single craft should be just as involved (if not more so) than getting every skill in a class."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, I thought about it some more. I pushed out that last bit right before leaving, so I didn't get enough thought into it before hitting send. Maybe it would have been better to say "mastering the entirety of one craft type (such as smithing) should be about equal in cost to mastering one class," because I don't think one person should become the master of every craft in the time it takes others to become the master barbarian, or what have you.
I do still think having generalization be easier than specialization is good though. I think there should be a large number of generalists making a normal sum, a few specialists making a pitiable amount because they aren't set up with the right resources or market, and a few more specialists who are reaping big cash with just the right set-up.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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I have to admit, in most of the games I've played, I've crafted and harvested primarily because it was a a big hole on my character sheet. I think I'm going to rely on others a lot more in PFO than I have before. I know there are a lot of T7V folks who are really into Crafting as their primary play-style.
*waves*
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Goblin Squad Member
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Loving the ideas in this thread. I don't like the idea of one guy being good at everything. I believe if an item is worth using, that it has to come from some one who has put training into it. The inverted pyramid style is the best set up imo, and PF already has the weapons broke down into weapon groups. Hopefully it will be equally easy to break down alchemy, buildings, siegecraft, and others.
+1 Decius
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Goblin Squad Member
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For each skill I envision 9 levels of crafting skill (Decius also has 9 in his list, with a different structure0:
Skill Category Approx Skill Range
Apprentice Skill 1-40
Journeyman Skill 41-80
Advanced Journeyman 81-100
Specialization 101-140
Advanced Specialization 141-180
Master Specialization 181-200
Item Specialization 201-240
Advanced Item Spec 241-280
Master Item Spec 281-300
So, no matter whether you are gather/harvesting, refining or crafting, this example would be (a possible) range allowed within each skill level.
For Min Viable Product I see no reason to get beyond 100 skill. The system, if it remains as previously theorized (I hope it oes) should be a very and slow climb to the top, and the first 100 skill levels will take at least a few months to reach...
Skill levels 101-200 will (I am guessing here) likely be available at Open Enrollment or thereabouts, and 201-300 in a major update about 6 months from that, give or take. That would put the Alpha guys at close to 2 years already...they might stall a little if they have been consistent in their efforts to hit 300 due to all the necessary issues at OE (there will be many). So for you Alphas, don't despair, you will have fond memories of the alpha to tide you over.
For what it’s worth, I have posted a few examples of the above theoretical crafting system in other threads.
A general system explanation for a blacksmith working towards two-handed swordcrafting master is explained here.
And a detailed description of the progress of a Gnomish Ruby Mining Master is explained by Fanndis Goldbraid here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm a long time lurker but have decided to join the debate now that cooler heads prevail.
Some of the ideas about blacksmithing trees and levels are interesting but to me have a big flaw. That is the blacksmith may need to spend a significant amount of time and resource creating items (buckets of nails etc) that may not have any particular use in game; the same happens in all of the games that I have played.
As this is supposed to be a player run economy; this would mean that in the first instance that any coin would need to be spent with NPCs; whilst the blacksmith, leathersmith etc get to the point of being able to make useful adventuring items which are better and more cost effective than those sold by the NPCs. The money used to purchase the items then exits the economy until the this point is reached.
Unless the smiths start the game with a sufficient skill to make basic weapons and armour this may ultimately cause issues for the rest of the player base especially as the route of money into the economy has not been fully reveled. Killing goblins will only get you so far and it has already been stated that wolves accidentally sitting on long swords and then dropping them as treasure will not happen.
Getting materials that can be used to make things has been discussed but the control of coin has not. If there is to be a significant level of banditry there is likely to be hyper-inflation as would happen if coin is too freely available.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Loving the ideas in this thread. I don't like the idea of one guy being good at everything.
Hm. Except there are players wishing to focus exclusively on crafting. I don't think artificial breadth and depth limitations should be imposed, but rather how much time they can invest and spend on skills. I think it would be more fair to such characters to offer such a wide variety of skills and give them interlocking requirements and tiers that the challenge of the game for them will be to acquire a masterful body of knowledge and gain wide fame as a master of his or her craft.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm a long time lurker but have decided to join the debate now that cooler heads prevail.
Some of the ideas about blacksmithing trees and levels are interesting but to me have a big flaw. That is the blacksmith may need to spend a significant amount of time and resource creating items (buckets of nails etc) that may not have any particular use in game; the same happens in all of the games that I have played.
As this is supposed to be a player run economy; this would mean that in the first instance that any coin would need to be spent with NPCs; whilst the blacksmith, leathersmith etc get to the point of being able to make useful adventuring items which are better and more cost effective than those sold by the NPCs. The money used to purchase the items then exits the economy until the this point is reached.
Unless the smiths start the game with a sufficient skill to make basic weapons and armour this may ultimately cause issues for the rest of the player base especially as the route of money into the economy has not been fully reveled. Killing goblins will only get you so far and it has already been stated that wolves accidentally sitting on long swords and then dropping them as treasure will not happen.
Getting materials that can be used to make things has been discussed but the control of coin has not. If there is to be a significant level of banditry there is likely to be hyper-inflation as would happen if coin is too freely available.
What if those basic items are the first things players can craft when they take up the skill? Such that yes, you may need a bucket of nails, and you can buy them from any level 1 blacksmith? No need to bring NPCs into the field. Same for a Level 1 weaponsmith who wants wood for an Axe Haft, maybe a long pole or plank from which to fashion the pole is an entry level woodworker craftable. There might always be a market for these items all the way up the tree. And a couple guys turning out nails and planks means the more specialized crafter need not spend his time there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, I also feel that's a critical part of the game; you make useful items from the get-go. Unfortunately I think it's all but inevitable that the very basic level 1 items are not going to be worth much; there'll just be too much supply, unless there's an enormous demand for them. In this case, I just hope that turning raw material into finished product doesn't usually decrease the value, like it does in many an MMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing I would line to point out is you don't get skills by doing, you get them by devoting training time to them. So you don't need to make nails to advance as a blacksmith, you only make them if you need them or there is demand for them by other players.
I do agree though, you should be able to make some very basic gear right from the start. Pretty sure I could make something fit for bashing heads with the proper facilities and a few minutes instruction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Welcome to delurk mode, Perchance to Dream. (Just be warned, it's a dangerous step - I delurked a while back to say just one thing and I now seem to have inflicted myself on the PfO community at large. I'm sure they rue the day.)
I understand your fears for the crafting system and totally agree that a crafter should not be churning out useless items at an over-inflated price just so they can level up. I don't think the system we are hammering out above (if you'll excuse the pun) is as bad as you think.
First off, the reason I chose nails in my example above was precisely because I couldn't think of anything more useful. If we are going to have player constructed buildings and settlements, they should be a vital component in both the raising and the maintenance of such structures, required by the bucketload. This is in addition to any use as components in further crafting recipes later in the tree as Lifedragn has pointed out. I think we agree though, that every single item that a crafter can make should be useful and used in game.
Second, I don't think a dedicated crafter would be stuck at this level for very long. Ryan said somewhere (I am not Nihimon, so I can't give you a quote) that basic skills could be trained in a matter of hours, if not minutes; I don't see any reason why crafting skills should be any different in this respect to other skill trees. A trainee blacksmith should be knocking out low level swords within a week, I'd guess. Mid level swords might take a few months and top level Q300 quite probably won't appear until near the end of EE, if at all. But I think the consensus so far has been that these trees should be both deep and broad, and that mastery of any crafting should take some effort. This way, some can dip their toes into the water and make functional (if not very good) items quite quickly, but a true master will have to be dedicated to the cause.