Conundrum: A character in my Kingmaker campaign had previously chosen to play as a child character, the daughter of a noble. This character had established relations with fey (fairy godmother, campaign trait related to fey, etc.). This character took the leadership feat (being a noble and playing an obviously weaker char made me okay with this) Now that she had the option, she took a swan maiden as a cohort, and now she's a swan maiden to.
Question: I have little idea how to calculate exp with this, what she keeps from her previous character, etc. So if someone here has had a similar experience with characters transforming into monsters, Please advise.
From the book : Swan maidens count as level 10 chars for the leadership feat and have 10 hit dice. A character should therefor be level 12 to take one (so do I consider her a level 10 or 12 character, does exp reset giving her 2 levels?). A swan maiden loses all class and racial abilities (does this include skills and feats? should I disregard the skills in the swanmaiden entry if so?).
Considering it was roleplayed very well, I don't feel like I can deny her this. I just have no experience with the situation.
I'll keep an eye on this, swan maidens look like interesting cohort. But someone turning into a swan maiden? I'm also curious to know how that works. The cohort clearly in charaters levels, but the player?
Edit: I know this might not be raw, but I would propose to allow them to keep feats/skills (if only so that their character can still be the chracter) while changing:
-Creature type
-HP (recalculate with d6 HD)
-Saves (based on monster creation tables)
-BAB (maybe... this could make a character unplayable)
-Ability scores: find a +2/+2/-2 that fits with the swan maiden, and apply it to the character, similarly to the spell reincarnation. I would reccomend +2 dex/+2 Cha/-2int
Now that I think about it, reicarnation is probably the closest example to something similar. The wording is similar. While it might not be stricly raw, it could work well while not transforming the character into something unplayable.
I would use the race building rules to construct a player race. I don't know the stats of a swan maiden, so I couldn't try it myself at this point, but if you can fit it into a standard or advanced race, give it a shot. Advanced races tend to be about half a level higher in effect, with emphasis earlier than later. Monstrous races tend to be a level or more higher in effect, again with emphasis earlier than later. These are *not* hard and fast rules, though.
Since you know exactly what kind of race you're trying to make, the race builder might work for you.
Edit: Ah, you're wanting her to also lose her class abilities and play it as a straight monster? That's trickier, and probably won't be as fun to play. Fair warning.
Transformation Ritual: A swan maiden can transform a willing good female humanoid into a swan maiden via a ritual that takes 24 hours . The humanoid loses her class and racial abilities.
The PC will pretty much lose everything , including the race , then you create a char based on the monster as PC rules. (she will lose her feats and so on , so make her pick leadership again if she wants to keep the swan maiden)
She can keep her memories , but because the body become a new thing , she loses pretty much everything else.
Well , that is how i would do it atleast.
dot
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If she is lvl 10 currently she needs to be lvp 12 for the cohort. However if she is lvl 12 it looks like she should loose all but 2 class levels.
Otherwise do as suggested and come up with something from the arg race builder. I would look at the kitsune as a similar setup.
Yeah, race builder would likely be better, otherwise the player would go from about a CR 12 creature to a CR 8 (6 for swan maiden, +2 for class levels). I know the roleplay is important, but this could completely gimp them.
If its any help bestiary 4 appears to have added a swan maiden that is only cr 6. I dont know if that helps.
If its any help bestiary 4 appears to have added a swan maiden that is only cr 6. I dont know if that helps.
the entire swanmaiden cohort thing originally came from that bestiary, so I was aware of it. thank you though.
Williamoak seemed concerned about the power of the character. I would like to remind him that she was playing a child character (npc classes only, and a mayor stats drain). so this is basicly a large stats gain at the expanse of 2 levels (going from a level 12 to a level 10 equivalent) this would only result in a -1 bab, easily offset by the increase in strength.
For those who suggested racebuilder, I'm vaguely reminded that it rules to scale encounters based on the amount of points put into it. a swanmaiden race would easily throw of any encounter I've written up. also the swanmaiden power rules that she would lose all of her class abilities, so what would she have now?
(I understand I could easily "Overrule" all of these issues, however this is the Rules question section, not the do whatever overruled section :) )
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To me it appears she becomes a monster race , that is all. (she wont be an elf/human/orc... anymore)
Use the rules for Monster as PC.
I will assume she is lvl 12(lets say bard 12) , got the cohort and did this ritual.
So a swan maiden is CR 6 (keep her skills/feats ...) , she would be ready to join a lvl 6 party, since they are already lvl 12.
She gets CR 6 + 6* class lvls (not saying 8 yet)
Now notice she would lose class powers, feats, skills ... Just allow her to pick from what she used to have (but since she got a cohort i would say she should pick leadership again to not lose it).
* Note that a monster PC per RAW should get +1 bonus level for each 3 class lvls they get (so in this case 2) till a max of half their CR (in this case max 3), BUT because the CR counts like lvls also , if you gave this and 8 bard lvls she would become lvl 14 not 12.
To me it appears she becomes a monster race , that is all. (she wont be an elf/human/orc... anymore)
Use the rules for Monster as PC.
I will assume she is lvl 12(lets say bard 12) , got the cohort and did this ritual.
So a swan maiden is CR 6 (keep her skills/feats ...) , she would be ready to join a lvl 6 party, since they are already lvl 12.
She gets CR 6 + 6* class lvls (not saying 8 yet)
* Note that a monster PC per RAW should get +1 bonus level for each 3 class lvls they get (so in this case 2) till a max of half their CR (in this case max 3), BUT because the CR counts like lvls also , if you gave this and 8 bard lvls she would become lvl 14 not 12.
okay so according to the rules for monsters as pc's, she goes from a weak child/npc class pc, to a player with 18 hitdice and any class she wants to fill it up with (no age categories for fey as far as I know) she is now the most powerfull character in the game.
Now notice she would lose class powers, feats, skills ... Just allow her to pick from what she used to have (but since she got a cohort i would say she should pick leadership again to not lose it).
I'm rather inclined to NOT let her take that again, the balance of the has shifted to much already, adding a npc to it, would be overkill
Btw thanks for everything guys
/Close
It looks like the PC is accepting penalties (NPC class, young template?) for RP reasons. Sounds good to me. So talk with your player and ask him. Show him the possible ways you can rule the transformation and explain which way you prefer and why.
i would compare the CR before and after the transformations. An NPC class has a lower CR than a PC class and the young template is an additional -1 to CR. In case of a lvl 12 NPC class (-2 CR) and the young template (-1 CR) we are talking about a CR of 9. Swan maidens have CR 6 so 3 CR are left for classes (=4 PC class levels or 5 NPC class levels). Then you can use the rule from Bestiary 'Monsters as PCs' to add an additional class level for every 3 levels.
We end up with a swan maid bard 5.
Compare to a lvl 12 group it sounds not owerpowered.
Keep in mind that the swan maid will level up faster than the rest of the group.
I would have rather liked a swanmay PrC like the one in the Book of Exalted Deeds, but I guess since that was copyrighted, Paizo had to make this one different. Oh, well. Maybe your character could take that PrC to become a swan maiden without losing her race and class. I think it can be used with Pathfinder without changing anything.