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If an animal companion has a type other than animal (such as magical beast or undead), does it use the statistics (HD, BAB, saving throw progressions, etc.) appropriate for its actual type, or is the Animal Companion Base Statistics chart on page 52 of the Core Rulebook the final arbiter of companion statistics regardless of type?
This is relevant with regard to the Celestial Servant feat found on page 88 of the Advanced Race Guide.
Please flag for FAQ review.
Rather than being a normal animal or beast, your
companion or familiar hails from the heavenly realms.
Prerequisites: Aasimar, animal companion, familiar,
or mount class feature.
Benefit: Your animal companion, familiar, or mount
gains the celestial template and becomes a magical beast,
though you may still treat it as an animal when using
Handle Animal, wild empathy, or any other spells or
class abilities that specifically affect animals.
The feat text for inquiring minds.
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Thanks for including that, Prince Dog Water. This has been argued on here innumerable times in the past and is a serious gray area in the rules that makes it hard to take advantage of an interesting feat in Pathfinder Society, where table variance is an issue. Please flag for FAQ, guys! Maybe we can lay this issue to rest.
celestial servant doesn't turn your animal into a god ray
It uses the animal companion table for everything BUT type and the goodies the feat gives.
Critters are already better than some character builds, we don't need to make them better than most of them with full BAB and d10 hp.
In specific to the Celestial Servant feat, it uses the celestial template, which does not affect the creature's hit die, BAB, etc.
Actually, it uses the Celestial Template AND makes your animal companion a magical beast. See the quoted rules text above. That's where the question comes from. Animals have d8 hit die and 3/4 BAB. Magical beasts are d10 HD and Full BAB.
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It uses the animal companion table for everything BUT type and the goodies the feat gives.
I respectfully disagree, but acknowledge that it isn't clear. That's why I'm urging people to FAQ this. If that interpretation is correct then being a "magical beast" that still counts as an animal is actually all downside, but not even in a way that could be interpreted to serve as a balancing act for the template. It's just dead text 99% of the time, and then a downside the very few times it's relevant.
I'm happy to be wrong in my interpretation, but for the sake of reducing unnecessary PFS table variance, I'd love to see a clarification.
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The feat does more than add the template. I'm not asking about the template because that part's mostly obvious (I say "mostly" because calculating the SR isn't all that obvious, but that's a question for another day). I'm curious about the other part of the feat, the part that makes the animal a magical beast.
The celestial template tells you exactly what it changes. BAB are never affected.
Just so you know templates always tell you everything that changes. Some templates do change your racial HD, and some just change your type.
As an example
Hit Dice: Change all of the creature's racial Hit Dice to d8s. All Hit Dice derived from class levels remain unchanged. As undead, liches use their Charisma modifiers to determine bonus hit points (instead of Constitution).
I will also add that in 3.5 the celestial template changed the creature type. There is nothing in Pathfinder that says it does.
Celestial Creature (CR +0 or +1)
Celestial creatures dwell in the higher planes, but can be summoned using spells such as summon monster and planar ally. A celestial creature's CR increases by +1 only if the base creature has 5 or more HD. A celestial creature's quick and rebuild rules are the same.
Rebuild Rules: Senses gains darkvision 60 ft.; Defensive Abilities gains DR and energy resistance as noted on the table; SR gains SR equal to new CR +5; Special Attacks smite evil 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against evil foes; smite persists until target is dead or the celestial creature rests).
Creating A Celestial Creature"Celestial" is an inherited template that can be added to any corporeal aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, plant, or vermin of good or neutral alignment (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
A celestial creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and abilities except as noted here. Do not recalculate the creature’s Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saves, or skill points if its type changes.
Size and TypeAnimals or vermin with this template become magical beasts, but otherwise the creature type is unchanged. Size is unchanged. Celestial creatures encountered on the Material Plane have the extraplanar subtype.
As you can see Pathfinder changed that.
I did read the feat, and it says nothing about changing the HD or BAB. I will FAQ it though.
[...]Benefit: Your animal companion, familiar, or mount gains the celestial template and becomes a magical beast[...]
Emphasis added for emphasis.
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I agree with you, Benn, that the text is definitely ambiguous, because of the part I'm highlighting here:
Benefit: Your animal companion, familiar, or mount
gains the celestial template and becomes a magical beast,
though you may still treat it as an animal when using
Handle Animal, wild empathy, or any other spells or
class abilities that specifically affect animals.
The fact that it says "and" implies that you apply the celestial template and also apply the effects of the creature becoming a magical beast.
However, I personally think that the creators meant to write this:
Benefit: Your animal companion, familiar, or mount
gains the celestial template, becoming a magical beast,
though you may still treat it as an animal when using
Handle Animal, wild empathy, or any other spells or
class abilities that specifically affect animals.
As in, they meant that you apply the template, which happens to also make the creature a magical beast, and they wanted to specify that here because they go on to say that you can still treat it as an animal when you need to.
In other words, despite the ambiguity, I think the intention is definitely NOT to change the hit dice of the animal, but based on how it's written you definitely could argue that you SHOULD change the hit dice.
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I did read the feat, and it says nothing about changing the HD or BAB. I will FAQ it though.
Thank you. The fact that it says nothing about HD and BAB is exactly the source of my confusion. Normally when a type changes (as per a template or spell) the rules assume that all aspects of the type change with it unless otherwise specified. Templates will say "do not recalculate hit dice" etc. when that's how the change is handled. This doesn't have that language anywhere, but many people believe the animal companion chart (which I view as a helpful cheat sheet for working out stats, as evidenced by the fact that raising an animal companion's Int impacts its skill points in explicit defiance of the chart) has the final say-so on companion stats regardless of type. That isn't clear, and everyone benefits from it becoming more so, so again thanks for FAQing.
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Again, though, the template doesn't change the animal's type (only the feat does), so if that was their intention they were misremembering the current version of the template. With that in mind, the intention of the feat becomes a lot less clear. Especially when you consider that the text doesn't do anything except make the animal more vulnerable to certain rangers if you take away the HD and BAB benefits.
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Again, though, the template doesn't change the animal's type (only the feat does), so if that was their intention they were misremembering the current version of the template. With that in mind, the intention of the feat becomes a lot less clear. Especially when you consider that the text doesn't do anything except make the animal more vulnerable to certain rangers if you take away the HD and BAB benefits.
Ah, you're right there as well. Although I don't agree that it doesn't do anything... your companion still gets DR, energy resistance and SR based on its hit dice and smite evil once per day. How is that nothing??
Or did you mean that the text OTHER than the part about the celestial template does nothing good? That makes more sense.
If that interpretation is correct then being a "magical beast" that still counts as an animal is actually all downside,....
Why is it a downside?
The feat says "you may still treat it as an animal when using
Handle Animal, wild empathy, or any other spells or
class abilities that specifically affect animals."
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Or did you mean that the text OTHER than the part about the celestial template does nothing good? That makes more sense.
Yeah, I just meant that the text about becoming a magical beast is effectively dead text without those benefits. Obviously the celestial template is fine enough.
Why is it a downside?
It's a downside because there exists the (admittedly remote) chance that there's a ranger out there with favoured enemy: magical beast or someone out there with a magical beast bane weapon. So, not only is the companion vulnerable to favoured enemy: animal and animal bane but the magical beast equivalents as well. Am I wrong in assuming there's no benefit to effectively having two types if you aren't getting the HD and BAB of the better of the two?
Again, I'm not making a power level judgment either way. It's still a cool feat even without the magical beast text, but the feat at large could use some clarification (not to mention set a precedent for similar type-changing effects in the future).
I don't personally see an issue with the feat granting you all the benefits of Magical Beast type.
The only differences will be HD (d8 becomes d10, a whole 16 extra hp at 20th level), BAB (+12 at 20th level becomes +16 at 20th level), and Darkvision 60'.
So we have 16 more hp, 4 more BAB, and 60' Darkvision. Over 20 levels. Doesn't seem broken to me.
Skills and Saves remain the same.
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Or did you mean that the text OTHER than the part about the celestial template does nothing good? That makes more sense.Yeah, I just meant that the text about becoming a magical beast is effectively dead text without those benefits. Obviously the celestial template is fine enough.
Why is it a downside?It's a downside because there exists the (admittedly remote) chance that there's a ranger out there with favoured enemy: magical beast or someone out there with a magical beast bane weapon. So, not only is the companion vulnerable to favoured enemy: animal and animal bane but the magical beast equivalents as well. Am I wrong in assuming there's no benefit to effectively having two types if you aren't getting the HD and BAB of the better of the two?
Again, I'm not making a power level judgment either way. It's still a cool feat even without the magical beast text, but the feat at large could use some clarification (not to mention set a precedent for similar type-changing effects in the future).
You are incorect. The feat says you meaning the ranger or druid may treat it as an animal. It does not say it is treated as an animal by everyone so it would only be affected by bane magical beast.
+4 to BAB, and 60 darkvision for one feat is pretty good. I know I would take that feat if I was a 3/4 BAB class.
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It doesn't really contradict anything. It adds the celestial template and it changes the animal into a magical beast. There's nothing contradictory about that. The rules just aren't clear on how the type change works for a companion. For that matter, they're not 100% clear on how the template works since that animal companion doesn't have a CR as far as I'm aware, meaning the spell resistance it gains is somewhat of a mystery. But I digress...
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I'm 99% certain that this is supposed to work like the paladin's mount, which at 11th level "gains the celestial template and becomes a magical beast for the purposes of determining which spells affect it."
If the Celestial Servant feat changed the HD and BAB, it wouldn't hide that fact in such a subtle and easily-missed way.
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There's a boon from a PFS scenario where you can choose an owlbear as an animal companion, which are normally magical beasts, so the specifics of the Celestial Servant feat are merely a distraction from the real question of what to do when your animal companion isn't an animal.
What is this scenario?
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Well, the diabolist prc, which refers to the same table doesn't change its BAB to equal its hit dice, despite outsiders having full BAB.
But it does change its HD, saving throw progressions, skill points, etc. More importantly, the diabolist PRC actually tells you how it works and also isn't really using the animal companion rules. It quite explicitly just uses the chart as a basic reference.
You get quite a bit of benefit. you get resistances, darkvision, and ..... a SMITE.
You don't get any of that from the text that makes the companion a magical beast, which is what I was talking about in the quote you cited. That's the template that grants all that. And this question has no bearing on the power level of that feat in particular. If in the process of answering this question the design team decides that the feat is too powerful and needs errata, then so be it. I don't believe it is or does, but that's neither here nor there. The question is about what changing an animal companion's type actually does.
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If the Celestial Servant feat changed the HD and BAB, it wouldn't hide that fact in such a subtle and easily-missed way.
It isn't hidden. Magical beasts have d10 hit dice and full base attack bonus. Those are the rules of the game. A template that changed a creature's type to magical beast and didn't specify "do not recalculate hit dice or BAB" would automatically convert hit dice and BAB.
The only reason the effects of that feat in particular are in contention is that the animal companion chart lays out a lot of numbers based on the animal type because it assumes your animal companion is an animal, and many people believe that those numbers supersede the rules that would normally update the stats to match the new type of the creature.
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What is this scenario?
However, that boon explicitly says you use the stats of a normal bear with a few very specific differences, none of which include changing the bear's type. So, in that case, you have an "owlbear" with the animal type instead of magical beast.
There is a scenario where you fight a bunch of rangers with favored enemy animal.
I have yet to see someone take magical beast
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I admitted it was barely a drawback. (: I hear "ranger" and I just automatically assume they're best at hunting humans, probably followed by undead and/or evil outsiders.
Nevertheless it's a theoretical drawback, unless wraithstrike's interpretation of the wording is correct. I read "you" as "you, the players of the game," but he's reading it as "the character of the player selecting this feat."
I would say it is an advantage. Since there is somewhere animal is a favored foe.
Plus if something has the ability to change it's bane. Like an inquisitor. They may not determine your horse is a magical beast.
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Eh, maybe. It's kind of a stretch. Again, the way I'm reading it, favoured enemy: animal and favoured enemy: magical beast both affect it. Arguably, only magical beast bane does, though.
And although, you've seen rangers with favoured enemy: animal and not with favoured enemy: magical beast, I think we can both agree they're both comparably low on the list of relevant creature types for that ability.
If the Celestial Servant feat changed the HD and BAB, it wouldn't hide that fact in such a subtle and easily-missed way.It isn't hidden. Magical beasts have d10 hit dice and full base attack bonus. Those are the rules of the game. A template that changed a creature's type to magical beast and didn't specify "do not recalculate hit dice or BAB" would automatically convert hit dice and BAB.
I think you missed my point. I'll try to restate it:
The text is very similar to the changes made to a paladin's mount at level 11, except the part about "for the purposes of.."
The authors of Celestial Servant would have to assume that people are familiar with the paladin's class features, since it's from the Core Rulebook.
Thus, if the authors of Celestial Servant wanted the feat to change HD and BAB, unlike the paladin's mount, they wouldn't have simply omitted that sentence and assumed everyone would know what that meant. I almost guarantee that they'd have added at least a parentheses stating it plainly.
That's what I meant by "hidden in a subtle and easily-missed way".
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Hmm, I think I did misinterpret your meaning, but if I'm reading you correctly now you're drawing an opposite conclusion from me.
The paladin ability quite explicitly only changes the type for the purposes of determining which spells affect it. I now understand that you're saying that it must have been intentional for them to change that wording when they wrote Celestial Servant, because they went out of their way to say "it still counts as an animal for spells and class abilities" so as to draw a contrast to the paladin ability.
Where I'm lost is that you seem to be drawing the conclusion that they drew the obvious comparison as a way to say "but in every other way these abilities are the same," whereas I'd draw the opposite conclusion ("the basis of this change is different, and thus so are the consequences").
A template that changed a creature's type to magical beast and didn't specify "do not recalculate hit dice or BAB" would automatically convert hit dice and BAB.
Also, (unless PF changed it), this is wrong judging by the last version of the game that specified exactly how templates worked (PF removed the entire section on "How to read a template"):
Templates often change a creature's type, and may change the creature's size.
If a template changes the base creature's type, the creature also acquires the augmented subtype unless the template description indicates otherwise. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature's original type. Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type.
Since HD-type and BAB are features rather than traits, the template has to specify that they change. Otherwise they don't.
(Yes, 3.5 isn't PF, but I don't know why this particular aspect would be changed)
Usually, though, templates specify in both cases (for both systems), since that makes life easier for everyone.
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That's definitely interesting, but as no such rule exists in Pathfinder the default assumption is that a creature of a given type follows the rules for that type. Exceptions exist but are always noted, which means the question of the non-animal companion is still not cut and dry.
Look, I'm happy to disagree on how we believe this particular feat this works. It just goes to show that there's a problem with the rules that needs addressing.
I admitted it was barely a drawback. (: I hear "ranger" and I just automatically assume they're best at hunting humans, probably followed by undead and/or evil outsiders.
Nevertheless it's a theoretical drawback, unless wraithstrike's interpretation of the wording is correct. I read "you" as "you, the players of the game," but he's reading it as "the character of the player selecting this feat."
Quite a few feats are written that way. That is why "you treat" and "is treated" are not the same when reading the rules.
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Not sure if people saw, but the specific Celestial Servant question has now been answered in the FAQ, setting a precedent for the question at large. Thanks, design team!
For those that dont feel like checking the table in the CRB is still in use as is.
Celestial Servant: Does this change my companion creature's HD, saves, skill ranks for changing its creature type?
No. All it does is change the creature's type to "magical beast" (which makes it immune to abilities from other creatures which only affect animals) and give it the abilities of the celestial creature simple template (which does not change anything other than what is exactly specified in the template).
For that matter, they're not 100% clear on how the template works since that animal companion doesn't have a CR as far as I'm aware, meaning the spell resistance it gains is somewhat of a mystery. But I digress...
Simple Template: Celestial (CR +0 or +1)
SR = CR + 5The AC is some animal, and that base animal has a CR. Add five.
Arguably, you can get the GM to calculate a CR based on what the AC has and use that as a base CR.
/cevah
Edit: had DR, not SR stuff.