The GM is allowed to set limitations on this (per the RAW).
I've always handled this by doubling the number of people needed per +2.
+2 : One person Aiding
+4 : Three people Aiding
+6 : Seven people Aiding
and so on.
Basically diminishing returns from throwing multiple people at it.
I have to go with mdt on this one. DM ruling...
Aid Another
You can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check. (You can't take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone. The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well.
emphasis by me. This is the ruling for skills.
Aid Another
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character's skill check.
again, emphasis by me. This says multiple characters, but nothing about one character with multiple action.
Are you asking from DM perspective or PC? You can always just ask you DM? I personally WOULD allow it in most situations.
Ok, maybe I misunderstood then.
Are you saying 'what is the limit that one character can do to aid another' in a single round?
Your example above is ab it confusing, he's using fighting defensively and aid another in the same round?
He shouldn't be; fighting defensively can be done as a standard action attack or as part of a full attack. It can't be combined with the Aid Another standard action.
That's what is confusing me.
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He shouldn't be; fighting defensively can be done as a standard action attack or as part of a full attack. It can't be combined with the Aid Another standard action.That's what is confusing me.
In his example, the character would be fighting defensively as a standard action and aiding another as a Swift action (thanks to Swift Aid feat). He'd also have the option of aiding another as an attack of opportunity using the Bodyguard feat. I've got a very similar character that can add up to +20 AC to an adjacent ally in one round. Here's the math of it:
Helpful Halfling makes your aid another checks +4 instead of +2
Swift Aid allows aid another as a swift action
Bodyguard allows aid another as an AOO when an ally is being attacked
Cautious Fighter plus Blundering Defense adds +2 Luck bonus to adjacent allies' AC. (+4 AC to me when fighting defensively, half that to my adjacent allies)
Cavalier Honor Guard archetype increases aid another to add AC to an ally by +1
Benevolent full plate armor +2 increases the Dodge bonus to AC by +2 from aid another.
My mount has the Bodyguard feat (from the Bodyguard animal archetype) and also has Helpful Halfing by taking Extra Traits (Adopted) <-- [This one is cheesy but legal.]
Fight defensively as standard action: +2 Luck bonus to adjacent ally's AC
Aid another as swift action: +7 Dodge bonus to adjacent ally's AC
Mount uses aid another as standard action: +4 Dodge bonus to adjacent ally's AC
When ally is attacked, use AOO to aid another: +7 Dodge bonus to ally's AC.
2 + 7 + 4 + 7 = +20 AC per round.
I still plan to get Benevolent armor for my mount and a Benevolent weapon for myself so that I can start aiding both AC and attacks in the same round by a lot. This build is awesome and makes GMs cry and other PFS players cry for joy.
Ok, I see it. The adopted thing would not fly at my table, and I'd be surprised if it's allowed for animals soon in PFS.
The thing is, this only works in PFS. A home game the GM would counter with all the different ways to counter (area of effect, swarms, etc).
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I think the thing is he is trying to use Aid other twice, the standard action AND the swift action. I could be wrong, but I thought Swift Aid allowed you to use your Aid Other as a swift action, not gain a second Aid other as a swift action. Also, while the numbers are impressive and useful, don't the bonuses on Aid Other only affect the next attack? Seems like a lot of build focus to get 1 single attack's worth of defensive bonus.
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Actually, looking over the assorted bits of that plan, I do not think you can use the Bodyguard AoO Aid Other on the same target at all, unless it was on a follow up attack... for example, you Aid Another on your turn, that adds to your ally's AC on the FIRST attack made, THEN on the second attack you use an AoA to aid another again to grant protection. However, I do not think they stack at all, and I certainly do not believe you can do a standard action Aid Other AND a Swift, but rather that feat allows you to perform an Aid Other while being able to perform other actions.
I would lump this into the "does it seem too good to be true? Then it most likely is" category.
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Directly from Pathfinder's SRD site:
Aid Another
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character's skill check.
The fact that it specifically says "and similar bonuses stack" means it works, period. My halfling helper uses his swift action to aid, giving the ally a +7 Dodge bonus to AC. He then uses his attack of opportunity on the first hit, giving the ally a +7 Dodge bonus to AC. Similar bonuses stack. Done and done.
Now, would I allow it at my own table outside of Pathfinder Society? Maybe not. BUT, since I'm playing in PFS, it's allowed by the rules.
I'd also like to point out that my character has Combat Expertise and an 18 Dex so he can do this for up to four attacks in a round. :-D
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order of the dragon ability doesnt stack with helpful. both replace the starting number. at high enough level the bonus from dragon is better than the +4 from helpful.
also if you take 1 level of battle herald, you can make everyone aid another for +1 more.
Yeah I had originally planned to pick up a level of Bard and then a level of Battle Herald to get that extra +1 and a few rounds of bardic performance, but I decided instead to go into Golden Legionnaire sooner, which will increase it by +1 at 4th level and again at 9th level.
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I had also considered Crane Style as an option, but I opted instead to focus on the Cavalier levels as much as possible to get into Golden Legionnaire faster.
I agree with Name Violation that the Order of the Dragon ability does not stack, it REPLACES what Helpful Halfling gives you. Now, at 20th level it would be a +5, so it would outstrip Helpful Halfling at that point, but I found that taking a different Order (order of the paw) made both more thematic sense and would give me better abilities that are useful at all levels.
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I'd also like to point out that my character has Combat Reflexes and an 18 Dex so he can do this for up to five attacks in a round. :-DYou get the one that everyone gets for free, and +4 more for having a +4 DEX mod.
Yep, I had that right on my character sheet but misspoke here.
Wow, I didn't even realize that the fighting defensively requires an attack, which means you can do it as PART of the standard action to aid another. That's awesome!
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I figured it just a mistype, but I figured I would err on the side of caution. As for Order of Dragon replacing, according to the wording it's on top of not in replacement of. If we use Helpful as a base, also the Pathfinder Chronicler prestige class ability Improved Aid specifically states it replaces.
Two items for precedence that IF it replaces, it specifically states such.
At 2nd level, whenever an order of the dragon cavalier uses the aid another action to assist one of his allies, the ally receives a +3 bonus to his armor class, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. At 8th level, and every six levels thereafter, this bonus increases by an additional +1.
Benefit: Whenever you successfully perform an aid another action, you grant your ally a +4 bonus instead of the normal +2.
In Aid Allies, your ally receives a +3 bonus to his armor class. The question here is, is this meant to be in addition to the normal +2 or REPLACE the normal +2? I definitely think it's meant to replace the normal +2 with +3, and eventually get up to +6 total at 20th level, though I suppose the text is a bit ambiguous.
In Helpful, your ally receives a +4 bonus to his armor class. It specifically says "instead of the normal +2".
So, no I don't think they stack. If it did stack, then that build just got even crazier, and I will be very sad that I took Order of the Paw instead.
EDIT: So, looking at it more, I'm even more convinced that the +3 in Aid Allies is meant to replace the normal bonus from aid another. This is because it doesn't give a type of bonus... if it said "the ally receives a +3 Circumstance/Dodge/Luck bonus to his armor class, etc..." then I would definitely say it stacks with the bonuses given by aid another. Having it written as a bonus without a type suggests to me that it replaces the untyped bonus that you're already giving your ally using aid another. Does that make sense?
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No no no, the +27 is WITHOUT Order of the Dragon. Order of the Dragon would bump it to a +36 at base. Another +3 for every four Cav levels you have.
Don't worry, you still get your +27.
I only give a +2 Luck bonus when fighting defensively (because I don't have the feats available to get Crane Style, so I only have a +5 Dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively, which rounds down when halved to +2)
Swift Aid: +4 Dodge bonus to AC (+1 base, +1 Honor Guard, +2 Benevolent armor)
Standard action Aid + Fighting Defensively: +7 Dodge Bonus to AC (+4 Helpful, +1 Honor Guard, +2 Benevolent Armor) + 2 Luck Bonus to AC
Aid as attack of opportunity: +7 Dodge Bonus to AC (same as with standard action)
Animal companion: Standard action +4 Dodge bonus to AC, AOO + 4 Dodge bonus to AC
= total of +28
:-D
Isn't there rule that say bonuses from same source does not stack? Like 2 dodge bonuses or untyped bonuses dont stack if come from same ability several times?
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Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.
ive always been under the impression you couldnt aid vs the same attack yourself multiple times with the same character with aid another.
so swift aid, then ready vs next attack, then bodyguard
multiple characters can aid or bodyguard.
my (now 12)pfs character (and mount) used bodyguard with +5 benevolent armor (and barding) and the helpful trait(yes both had it) the character aided for 11 and his mount aided for 10, and honestly adding 21 ac is more than enough MOST of the time.