I like the imperial units. They give the game a measure of quaint medievalness. People use copper coins, ride horses and weigh pounds.
Sissyl wrote: SI units are so much easier. Prefixes always mean the same thing. By comparison, imperial units are clunky and silly. The only reason to use imperials is that you have been exposed to them for a long time.
That said, I can deal with feet and pounds. It is no big deal, and I CERTAINLY don't want autochanged pdfs, and if I feel the need for a conversion list, I am perfectly capable of printing one out myself.
What is the autochanged PDF?
That is not what I suggested. I apologise if my post suggested that to anyone. I was simply talking about how to do produce 2 documents that are essentially the same except for the measurements, and how to do it from a technical point of view so that it has a minimal amount of work to perform.
Then you purchase the one that you want at Point of Sale. Or maybe they'd be nice enough to just let you have either when you make the purchase.
Woolfe wrote:
Then you purchase the one that you want at Point of Sale. Or maybe they'd be nice enough to just let you have either when you make the purchase.
If it happened, I'd say getting both would be the preferable option. You never know if you're going to want to switch to be able to play with a different group at a later date, and having to repurchase everything just for a few measurements would suck :)
At the moment, we tend to get two or four options for each download (by-chapter and normal/lite variants), so it'd fit into that nicely.
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And doing so would require laying out rt he book again.
Time which would be almost certainly more profitably spent on new products.
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Bigotry will always be with us. The sooner we meet alien life, the sooner all humans will learn to get along with each other. Bonded by their hatred of those dirty f--king Martians.
Now Canada has signed a significant trade deal with Europe, I think only border towns will have much use of old imperial. As the trades people all retire as the generation boomers all stop being the site supers too.
It's not like the measurements in the game are particularly good or accurate anyway. Just ignore the imperial bits if you need to make your game feel a different way.
May I suggest:
Flarb- Unit of length equal to one side of a tactical map square.
Flarbi- 1/5 of a Flarb, used to replace the word "foot" in game text.
Flirbi- 1/12 of a Flarbi, used to replace the word "inch" in game text.
Flub- Amount of liquid that fits into a standard waterskin.
Floob- 2x of a Flub, used to replace the word "gallon" in game text.
Fleebi- Weight of a game coin.
Fleb- 50x of a Fleebi, used to replace the word "pound" in game text.
Fleeb- 1/16 of a Fleb, used to replace the word "ounce*" in game text.
That seems much simpler...
*does this word ever appear in game text?
Ounces can go die in a corner.
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Sissyl wrote: Ounces can go die in a corner. I'd prefer a fire, but it'll take us a week to decide whether the heat of it should be measured in celsius or fahrenheit :)
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Matt Thomason wrote: Sissyl wrote: Ounces can go die in a corner. I'd prefer a fire, but it'll take us a week to decide whether the heat of it should be measured in celsius or fahrenheit :) Kelvins
Sissyl wrote: Ounces can go die in a corner. But, but its so much easier to say I'll take a 12oz can then a 354mL one.
What we need is metric time!
Start by dividing the day into 10 parts. 1/100th of these become the temporal unit, which for ease we'll call a minute. So a day will be 1000 minutes long. Seconds will become the centiminute. An hour will be called a hectominute. A Kilominute for the day.
Or I could've just googled metric time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Having grown up with pounds and miles, for me it's second nature. But I've used quite a bit of metric calculations too and it's actually quite nice in my opinion. I certainly wouldn't mind switching to it. Of course I really don't want to pay the taxes to have all those road signs changed over.
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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Woolfe wrote: I find it odd that with today's technology it is not possible to simply create a script that identifies and modifies the documents to have metric system values instead of imperial. Especially as I understand the German version has already done this.
You've never been in the output area of publishing. I can tell. The German version "doesn't do that". It's essentially a totally seperate publication. You can't just go blindly sustituting text within 2 to 300 page document and expect it to come out. It's a virtual guarantee that kerning, paragraph structure, even whole pages will probably go to whack during the process.
The book would have to be reauthored and re-edited twice, as well as re-outputted. Which would also mean two print streams for the separate book, and all the supply problems it would entail. "I've got three cases of Pathfinder Metric that no one wants to buy!"
And we haven't even touched on the impact on scenarios, modules, setting books, and adventure paths.
I tried explaining that but I got told that... no wait, let me go find the exact quote.
Woolfe wrote: It is very simple, and no I have not done it with a PDF. But that is because I am not a fan of the format, I have however done it with Word. Any word processsing tool that can handle xml/xhtml/html scripting extensions would be able to do it with ease. I would be very surprised if you couldn't do it natively in PDF, altho maybe I shouldn't as Adobe are well known for their idiocy. Despite that it wouldn't be hard to simply create the document in another format and then convert to PDF for the finalisation. This is honestly the simplest form of "if then else" you could ever do. ... yeah the two are absolutely nothing alike, working with one is so different from working with the other that it's ridiculous to try to compare the two.
What you want, Woolfe, is for basically every document on the site to have a separate Metric version for sale. You do not seem to realize just how much work this will involve, and keep brushing aside anyone who attempts to tell you just how much work - and time, and distraction from other, more important projects - it will involve with comments like the above.
Lazar has it in a nutshell. Between formatting, alignment, design, and editing, your request would basically require every document to be done TWICE. Every. Single. Product. Paizo. Offers. Past, present, and future. And that's not even getting into 3rd party. You want, essentially, to double their workload - that of the designers, the writers, and the editors - for almost nil profit.
THAT is why we reject your request - not because of any dislike for the Metric system, but because what you request is by definition unfeasible, illogical, and a terrible business decision.
buy a calculator. problem solved.
Kthulhu wrote: Bigotry will always be with us. The sooner we meet alien life, the sooner all humans will learn to get along with each other. Bonded by their hatred of those dirty f--king Martians. I'm not sure how this post wound up in this topic. It was intended for the Inclusion of any other politics stuff in paizo products intended / planned? topic. It doesn't even really make sense here. However, I won't argue with the 6 favorites. :P
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Kthulhu wrote: Kthulhu wrote: Bigotry will always be with us. The sooner we meet alien life, the sooner all humans will learn to get along with each other. Bonded by their hatred of those dirty f--king Martians. I'm not sure how this post wound up in this topic. It was intended for the Inclusion of any other politics stuff in paizo products intended / planned? topic. It doesn't even really make sense here. However, I won't argue with the 6 favorites. :P Obviously you upset the Martians. I do believe they get a racial +2 bonus to annoy Earthling rolls.
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Xzaral wrote:
Obviously you upset the Martians. I do believe they get a racial +2 bonus to annoy Earthling rolls.
Damn those OP Martians! Nerf! Nerf!
Matthew Downie wrote: Old-fashioned units probably work better for fantasy world atmosphere. Replacing 1lb with 500g would be like replacing gold pieces with Euros.
<Takes a 150cm step away to avoid provoking.>
I have to agree with this. It may seem off-point, but imperial sounds more "fantasy-like." Metric works for modern or futuristic stuff.
To that end, Star Wars d20 used metric. A person could probably pick a used copy up for a few bucks, take a look at it, and get everything they need to just wing metric in their Pathfinder or D&D game without the need for a whole new line of books being printed.
While Metric is much better for the real world, leagues, furlongs, inches, pounds and yards are the stuff of Tolkien, Lewis, Robert and the rest, and belongs in Fantasy RPGs, IMHO.
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As others have said, this isnt just a matter of find and replace. It would change the layout of the entire product. '60ft Cone' doesnt take up the same amount of space as '18m cone'. Meter and Foot, or Meters and Feet take up different space. That might not seem like much, even over the course of a 20 something page document its enought to throw off page counts, and even more so in the multihundred page hard covers. Paizo would have to make such changes to an english version of the product and then re-examine the layout to make sure everything still fits since they work very hard to make everything fit a certain way (like how the spreads work in the bestiary). If it was a flat text or word document it wouldnt be an issue. But as a product with art, specific layouts and is meant to look the same as a particular printed book, its not a simple task.
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Here in 'Merica, we exercise our freedom to select an objectively inferior measurement system. And by select, I mean "remain too lazy to bother changing." :P
Besides, I'm pretty sure that metric system is Socialist. Think about it -- every unit of measurement is exactly 1/10 the size of the next larger unit. Talk about equality of outcome!
Matt Thomason wrote: Woolfe wrote: Then you purchase the one that you want at Point of Sale. Or maybe they'd be nice enough to just let you have either when you make the purchase. If it happened, I'd say getting both would be the preferable option. You never know if you're going to want to switch to be able to play with a different group at a later date, and having to repurchase everything just for a few measurements would suck :)
At the moment, we tend to get two or four options for each download (by-chapter and normal/lite variants), so it'd fit into that nicely. That would certainly make sense.
LazarX wrote: Woolfe wrote: I find it odd that with today's technology it is not possible to simply create a script that identifies and modifies the documents to have metric system values instead of imperial. Especially as I understand the German version has already done this. You've never been in the output area of publishing. I can tell. Correct. However I have converted documents of technical details from Imperial to Metric, for use within an organisation. This included Tables and Formatting etc. However these documents were all Virtual, and furthermore staying in a technical group, that knew that they were converted documents.
Do you have experience in this area, if so I will be keenly interested to hear what you have to say.
LazarX wrote: The German version "doesn't do that". It's essentially a totally seperate publication. You can't just go blindly sustituting text within 2 to 300 page document and expect it to come out. It's a virtual guarantee that kerning, paragraph structure, even whole pages will probably go to whack during the process. And I haven’t suggested that either. At no point have I said this wouldn’t require work to do. I have only stated that it is simple to do. My point with the German edition is that it exists. Therefore not only is it possible, but there is a market for it.
Why would paragraph structure change?
Kerning fair enough, but that is also relatively simple to fix, and would not affect everything.
Whole pages going out of Whack? Maybe, this sort of thing does happen, but they are not exactly insurmountable problems.
Many of the above issues actually can be managed to a lesser degree with a smartly written script. Although you may find the effects are much smaller than you think. Especially if you ignore Story “Fluff” and only focus on Rules and Game mechanics.
LazarX wrote: The book would have to be reauthored and re-edited twice, as well as re-outputted. Re-authoring, why? The only thing changing is the system of measurement. The Rules related to those measurements, the story fluff, the actual Game mechanics. These things do not change. They stay the same no matter the measurement used.
Re-editing would of course be required, but you would be able to easily identify the areas that needed editing, and then compare each chapter with the original “master” document.
LazarX wrote: Which would also mean two print streams for the separate book, and all the supply problems it would entail. I have already clearly stated that when it comes to the print side of things, there is a major cost, and this is not something that should be done without first knowing your market exists.
However the Virtual product is a completely different thing. If a virtual product fails to sell, then all you have lost is the output to create it. There are no “stock Problems” with virtual.
LazarX wrote: "I've got three cases of Pathfinder Metric that no one wants to buy!" Or it could result in “Hey we’ve just sold out of our run of Pathfinder Metric” Strawman arguments work both ways. Neither of us can honestly say we know if or if not they would sell.
Personally if they started with a virtual run, I can’t see how they wouldn’t sell. The vast majority of the rest of the world uses the metric system, and of course English is the most widely distributed language spoken around the world.
LazarX wrote: And we haven't even touched on the impact on scenarios, modules, setting books, and adventure paths. Sure, but if you were to say start with the core rulebook, and provide a table like Klaus created for conversion of existing material. You would easily cover this off. If the Metric version did well, then it would make sense to begin converting, if it failed then obviously you would stop there.
Orthos wrote: I tried explaining that but I got told that... no wait, let me go find the exact quote.
Woolfe wrote: It is very simple, and no I have not done it with a PDF. But that is because I am not a fan of the format, I have however done it with Word. Any word processsing tool that can handle xml/xhtml/html scripting extensions would be able to do it with ease. I would be very surprised if you couldn't do it natively in PDF, altho maybe I shouldn't as Adobe are well known for their idiocy. Despite that it wouldn't be hard to simply create the document in another format and then convert to PDF for the finalisation. This is honestly the simplest form of "if then else" you could ever do. ... yeah the two are absolutely nothing alike, working with one is so different from working with the other that it's ridiculous to try to compare the two.
How? I was talking about simplifying the methodology used by making use of scripting capabilities within many modern document systems. If your baseline formatting supports that, then it will work.
Orthos wrote: What you want, Woolfe, is for basically every document on the site to have a separate Metric version for sale. Well yes, of course I do. I thought that was pretty obvious. Of course I am not expecting that to happen overnight. My assumption would be that they would do a test book, which really could only be the Core rulebook, and then providing it actually is used/sells grow it from there.
Orthos wrote: You do not seem to realize just how much work this will involve, and keep brushing aside anyone who attempts to tell you just how much work - and time, Actually the only thing I have rejected outright is that the cost of Virtual publishing being compared to physical publishing.
Otherwise I have suggested that a lot of this work could be scripted and built in such a way as to not require 2 documents. This is true, you could do it. I know because I have. Obviously not on the same scale though, but the base concept it sound.
Of course it may be more efficient and economically sound to simply create a secondary document that sits off the Master. Once you have done it once, you will know most of where your headaches will be and creating a new spawn from the Master would take less time and effort. If you had the resources you could certainly manage the master in such a way that some of the changes would be less manual.
As I have said repeatedly the measurement changes would not affect anything actually creative. You could hire a competent document writer to do it.
Orthos wrote: and distraction from other, more important projects - it will involve with comments like the above. Ah, so you are concerned that you won’t get what you want, so who cares about the potential new customers, or the existing customers that might like Metric.
Orthos wrote: Lazar has it in a nutshell. Between formatting, alignment, design, and editing, your request would basically require every document to be done TWICE. Every. Single. Product. Paizo. Offers. Past, present, and future. And that's not even getting into 3rd party. You want, essentially, to double their workload - that of the designers, the writers, and the editors - for almost nil profit. And how would you know it is nil profit? What do you base that on? Current existing sales of metric… Oh wait…
Perhaps you should stop and consider the sales potential of this. It is a change that requires no rules/game mechanics/fluff work, simply recalculation and re-formatting. However it has the potential to open up several other markets. First are the countries like Australia, Canada, etc whose primary language is English and who use the Metric system. Then you have the countries like in Europe, where there is a large percentage of English as a secondary language users, who use metric. And then you have those countries where Imperial holds sway, but there may be people who choose to use metric.
Are you suggesting that there is no potential for sales there?
Orthos wrote: THAT is why we reject your request - not because of any dislike for the Metric system, but because what you request is by definition unfeasible, illogical, and a terrible business decision. Unfeasible? – Not at all, it is a simple conversion from one system to another. This doesn’t require original content, simply the modification of existing content. Of course it is feasible.
Illogical? – No. If people are asking for it, as I am. If people are saying “Hey I’d like that” which several posters have. And if it doesn’t hurt your business, then why exactly is it illogical?
Terrible business decision – Why? Do you have proof that this wouldn’t sell? Of course there would be risks. But then there are risks in every business decision. In this case let’s look at the pros and cons.
Con – Requires work to do conversion.
Con – Might create version difficulties with potential forking of metric vs imperial systems.
Con – Sheer volume of Paizo product means that the total conversion would take a long time.
Con – Takes away from new Paizo content.
Pro – Work done is purely document management, there is no new content being created story/rules/mechanics.
Pro – Master document can be kept in whichever format, with the Metric version always coming off it, thus removing forking potential.
Pro – Starting virtual means that you can produce for a small number of books, see how they sell, then decide later if you wish to convert the rest.
Pro – Work can be performed by document writer who has no understanding of content. They do not need to create new content(story/rules/mechanics).
Pro – Opens up markets that have traditionally been poorly served in this area.
Pro – Has no effect on existing market.
Pro – Creates a “point of difference” between competitors.
Pro – Starting Virtual means that the only potential “lost” cost is in the initial workload. There are no stocking/physical print issues.
Now I could be way off in the workload that this requires. I don’t have the direct experience in these areas. But surely based on the list of Pros, it would at least be worth looking at, as opposed to being a “terrible business decision”.
So imo feasible, logical, and potentially profitable if managed correctly.
Don’t get me wrong, I am doing this for somewhat selfish reasons. But don’t confuse that with it being a bad decision.
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Bruunwald wrote: To that end, Star Wars d20 used metric. I hear womp rats aren't much bigger than two meters.
Kolokotroni wrote: As others have said, this isnt just a matter of find and replace. It would change the layout of the entire product. '60ft Cone' doesnt take up the same amount of space as '18m cone'. Meter and Foot, or Meters and Feet take up different space. That might not seem like much, even over the course of a 20 something page document its enought to throw off page counts, and even more so in the multihundred page hard covers. Paizo would have to make such changes to an english version of the product and then re-examine the layout to make sure everything still fits since they work very hard to make everything fit a certain way (like how the spreads work in the bestiary). If it was a flat text or word document it wouldnt be an issue. But as a product with art, specific layouts and is meant to look the same as a particular printed book, its not a simple task. Sure, this might happen. I think it would be much less than what is suggested.
Tables etc would have been authored in such a way that they could handle larger numbers, because well you know what if there is a larger number. You should be able to make tables fit the same space.
So its really only the in text stuff. I don't have a copy, but how often are measurement's used on any specific page outside of "table like" sections? Especially if you ignore the story "fluff".
So I assume in spell descriptions and Beastiary, and charactr creation, and equipment that there would be references to measurements. But I also assume most of them are in a table like format, which would allow for different sizing etc.
Is that incorrect? (I wish I had a copy to look at)
So if you actually look at the "text" areas, so descriptions or items, descriptions of rules and game mechanics etc. How often do the measurements exist?
Does the PDF version allowing searching of "text".
And even then.
If the pages do get out of whack, you deal with it. OR you do it at the point of the next release. I see it is at "6th printing" so there is obviously some degree of versioning changes done on a large enough basis to require a new set of printing. At which point you manage them in such a way that these differences don't affect the page counts etc.
Each print version (ie, 1-5) maintain page integrity from the last version. That way someone with the 3rd print of the CRB doesn't have different pagination of someone with the 1st or the 5th. This is important because supplemental books will often reference earlier books (BY PAGE NUMBER) so they don't have to reprint materials that are already available. When the reader is told the info they need is on page 344 of the CRB, it needs to be there.
BigDTBone wrote: Each print version (ie, 1-5) maintain page integrity from the last version. That way someone with the 3rd print of the CRB doesn't have different pagination of someone with the 1st or the 5th. This is important because supplemental books will often reference earlier books (BY PAGE NUMBER) so they don't have to reprint materials that are already available. When the reader is told the info they need is on page 344 of the CRB, it needs to be there. Impressive, how do they manage with adding Errata in to newer versions, or do they not do that?
What if there is a significant rule change or an additional component? Or does that generally not happen?
Woolfe wrote: BigDTBone wrote: Each print version (ie, 1-5) maintain page integrity from the last version. That way someone with the 3rd print of the CRB doesn't have different pagination of someone with the 1st or the 5th. This is important because supplemental books will often reference earlier books (BY PAGE NUMBER) so they don't have to reprint materials that are already available. When the reader is told the info they need is on page 344 of the CRB, it needs to be there. Impressive, how do they manage with adding Errata in to newer versions, or do they not do that?
What if there is a significant rule change or an additional component? Or does that generally not happen? The design team has been on record several times indicating that errata is limited by pagination. This also prevents major system changes. Recently errata was implemented to the stealth rules which was much more abbreviated than the design team wanted but it is what was permitted by the space on that page. (I personally prefer the errata stealth rules to the play test alternate stealth rules.) Also, a bunch of errata is the removal of text rather than the addition.
Just for more game info, here are a series of web articles for 3.5 D&D. I'm sure they could be useful for PF as well for the most part.
Going Metric (Part One)
Going Metric (Part Two)
Going Metric (Part Three)
Going Metric (Part Four)
BigDTBone wrote: Woolfe wrote: BigDTBone wrote: Each print version (ie, 1-5) maintain page integrity from the last version. That way someone with the 3rd print of the CRB doesn't have different pagination of someone with the 1st or the 5th. This is important because supplemental books will often reference earlier books (BY PAGE NUMBER) so they don't have to reprint materials that are already available. When the reader is told the info they need is on page 344 of the CRB, it needs to be there. Impressive, how do they manage with adding Errata in to newer versions, or do they not do that?
What if there is a significant rule change or an additional component? Or does that generally not happen? The design team has been on record several times indicating that errata is limited by pagination. This also prevents major system changes. Recently errata was implemented to the stealth rules which was much more abbreviated than the design team wanted but it is what was permitted by the space on that page. (I personally prefer the errata stealth rules to the play test alternate stealth rules.) Also, a bunch of errata is the removal of text rather than the addition. Ah see now that makes a huge difference. I wasn't aware of that as a decision. It's a massive undertaking, and must be very restrictive for them.
That completely changes the situation, this is something that they have obviously made a conscious decision on, and so they obviously don't want to go back on that decision if they can avoid it. I still think the tables and "Table like" areas would be fine. But certainly any edits to the body text would be very painful, obviously not impossible, but probably hard enough to make it "less worthwhile".
Thank you for explaining that. As I have stated I am new here and have not been following Paizo's efforts for very long. Things like this might be obvious for some of you but are new to me.
The only reason I am on here asking about this is that the customer service people suggested it.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Woolfe wrote: Do you have experience in this area, if so I will be keenly interested to hear what you have to say. I worked at Copytone a graphics company in Manhattan for twenty years and the bulk of that was in it's Quadratone pre-press division as Technical Manager. We did a variety of output, print, multi-media, for corporate customers including Tommy Hilfiger, more banks than I can remember as well as various legal firms. We maintained a complete Adobe font library plus other collections, including custom created corporate fonts. The bulk of our output involved postscript processing which required precise placement as well as color reproduction for the purposes of our clients.
Letter counts are not the only issue. different letters, symbols kern differently which again throws in slight adjustments in paragraph structure which become major when cast over a single page, not to mention chapter work. You're also overlooking that the various measurements are not only spelled differently but constructed differently in grammar as well. Foot, Feet, Meter, Kilometer, and english measurement will use different terms. Fathoms for ocean depth, instead of feet or yards, whereas metric uses the same terms irregardless of context.
You also don't take into account that blind substitution would also not account for words used in multiple context. "Foot" is not only a measure of length, it's the description of the terminal appendage of a leg. "Meter" is not only the name for a unit of measurement, but also a measuring device.
Paizo's on demand customisation is nothing more than the adjustment of a watermark, which is inserted in a blank spot of page on a completely separate graphics layer which does not interact with text. What you would propose involves a search and replace of body text within the text layer, which is considerably more complicated and fraught with minefields.
Before any of this could be sensibly done, yon Americans would need to learn the correct spelling of 'metre'.
Metre is a measure of length.
The car had enough petrol to drive two hundred kilometres.
Meter is a measure of the arrangement of syllables in verse.
Sonnets contain fourteen lines in iambic pentameter.
:b
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This is the type of silliness up with which we will not put.
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Sissyl wrote: This is the type of silliness up with which we will not put. Yes, foregrounding the object can lead to silly sentences.
However, 'We will not put up with this type of silliness' is fluent and elegant. Diverting from SVO should be done with purpose.
Chemlak wrote: Klaus van der Kroft wrote: Alright, got the document finished. I tried to be as exhaustive as possible, while focusing on the most relevant stuff.
Here's the download link (it's a PDF, about 400kb. Host is WeTransfer, pretty safe to use): PFSRD Metric Conversion Guide
I'll see how to add it to the d20pfsrd promptly.
I hope it helps!
Nice conversion guide. Just to point out a typo: there are 10mm to the centimeter, not 100. Ohh, you are quite correct. Thanks!
I also noticed some mistakes (I failed to apply the proper approximations on the weapon/spell ranges tables), plus I added a table for square-to-metre conversions.
Here's the updated version of the Metric Conversion Guide: Download Link
Any feedback to improve it is more than welcomed!
Woolfe wrote:
Sure, this might happen. I think it would be much less than what is suggested.
Tables etc would have been authored in such a way that they could handle larger numbers, because well you know what if there is a larger number. You should be able to make tables fit the same space.
So its really only the in text stuff. I don't have a copy, but how often are measurement's used on any specific page outside of "table like" sections? Especially if you ignore the story "fluff".
Excluding tables, there are 375 instances of foot and 837 of feet in the core rules (this was done with a quick copy and paste via the lite pdfs so I make no promises about accuracy, but I'm fairly confident). Forgeting about how the numbers would shift simply changing foot to meter, and feet to meters would create an additional 2049 characters. Thats more then enough to screw up layout.
Quote:
If the pages do get out of whack, you deal with it. OR you do it at the point of the next release. I see it is at "6th printing" so there is obviously some degree of versioning changes done on a large enough basis to require a new set of printing. At which point you manage them in such a way that these differences don't affect the page counts etc.
Versioning yes, but as others have said, paizo's layout is super important to it and revisions to the rules that the devs actually wanted were limited due to page count maintenance. So no, dealing with it isnt an issue, and doing it without affecting page count is REALLY hard when paizo takes great pains both to completely fill each page. Seriously, crack a paizo book. You wont see alot of empty space where there are words. Chapter titles sure, but when the text starts, between the art, the words and tables, they cover the whole page, pretty much every time. Even slight shifts in character count could mess that up and require significant revision.
Doing what you ask would be about as much effort as it took to do the 'lite pdfs' which is something pretty much the whole community had to ask for for several years, and required a major technological trend (the rise of tablets) to mandate.
LazarX wrote: Woolfe wrote: Do you have experience in this area, if so I will be keenly interested to hear what you have to say. I worked at Copytone a graphics company in Manhattan for twenty years and the bulk of that was in it's Quadratone pre-press division as Technical Manager. We did a variety of output, print, multi-media, for corporate customers<More than adequate experience snipped>
Letter counts are not the only issue. different letters, symbols kern differently which again throws in slight adjustments in paragraph structure which become major when cast over a single page, not to mention chapter work. That makes sense. Who tended to perform that sort of work? Was it something everyone learnt or was it a specialist activity?
LazarX wrote: You're also overlooking that the various measurements are not only spelled differently but constructed differently in grammar as well. Foot, Feet, Meter, Kilometer, and english measurement will use different terms. Fathoms for ocean depth, instead of feet or yards, whereas metric uses the same terms irregardless of context. No didn't overlook that. Assumed this would be the main spot that human intervention was required, but these are all "english" rules that can be managed. If scripted controls get a high percentage of the work, then the other is handled by exception. But this sort of thing is not hard. It is "work" but it isn't hard. This is kind of the point I was making. If you can script something then generally it doesn't require complex thought. Often elements that can't be scripted fail, not because of complexity, but because the script has no context, and can't make decisions. (Which incidentally you can build in, but it would be a long and slow process to account for every crazy permutation of the english language)
LazarX wrote: You also don't take into account that blind substitution would also not account for words used in multiple context. "Foot" is not only a measure of length, it's the description of the terminal appendage of a leg. "Meter" is not only the name for a unit of measurement, but also a measuring device. Again, yes I do. I keep saying that running the script alone is not enough. There would be work required. But this only requires a knowledge of the English language, it doesn't require the knowledge of the RPG system.
My point is that with the technology available today this has got to be simpler than it was say 15 years ago.
LazarX wrote: Paizo's on demand customisation is nothing more than the adjustment of a watermark, which is inserted in a blank spot of page on a completely separate graphics layer which does not interact with text. What you would propose involves a search and replace of body text within the text layer, which is considerably more complicated and fraught with minefields. I wasn't even aware of the "On demand" thing until it was mentioned in this thread. It is not something that factored into my considerations.
I come from a technical background, system administration in IT to be exact. I look at these problems with an eye to automation. Because on a day to day basis this is what I do.
Language is a controllable factor, as are measurements. To me it is logical that you should be able to use the available tools to not only identify the areas that would need change, but to build scripting utilities that make the changes as well. Of course there are always exceptions, ALWAYS. But you build in the facility to address that in your processes.
So a simple search and replace is not actually what I was suggesting. Others assumed that and read it that way. Right from the start I have been talking about script based controls. I am sure a search and replace would be a component of that, but certainly not the only element.
This sort of scripting stuff normally goes through several revisions with manual input before it gets to even an 80/20 point. (That being handling the 80%, and treating the 20% as exception)
My big point was that once you had laid the framework for having both an imperial and a metric version, you should be able to build your master document so that it can be modified between the two in a more efficient manner. For example being less specific in the language used around distance. Not stating distances in the text but having it in the "table" etc.
I don't know the kerning etc requirements around this sort of publishing, this is something that I thought would have been mostly automatic nowadays, because it seems relatively set in its variables etc. But you give the impression that it is much more of a visual/artistic element than purely technical.
Thank you for explaining it.
Most importantly, in all of this, I was not aware of Paizo's decision regarding the pages being the same between revisions. That actually does make it near impossible to do, and is a valid, logical, reason why not to do it.
However if at some point they decide to do a new Version that is going to change the numbering. (Which, assuming they are having that much trouble fitting things like errata in, might not be totally unreasonable)
Then building it to support 2 distance systems right from the outset would be worthwhile. For all the reasons I have already listed.
Kolokotroni wrote: Excluding tables, there are 375 instances of foot and 837 of feet in the core rules (this was done with a quick copy and paste via the lite pdfs so I make no promises about accuracy, but I'm fairly confident). Forgeting about how the numbers would shift simply changing foot to meter, and feet to meters would create an additional 2049 characters. Thats more then enough to screw up layout. Agreed and now that I know how important the layout is to Paizo, it makes sense.
But my point stands, if Paizo were NOT as concerned by the layout, it would be feasible, logical, and possibly even good business sense. ;)
Kolokotroni wrote: Quote:
If the pages do get out of whack, you deal with it. <Snip>.
Versioning yes, but as others have said, paizo's layout is super important to it and revisions to the rules that the devs actually wanted were limited due to page count maintenance. So no, dealing with it isnt an issue, and doing it without affecting page count is REALLY hard when paizo takes great pains both to completely fill each page. Seriously, crack a paizo book. You wont see alot of empty space where there are words. Chapter titles sure, but when the text starts, between the art, the words and tables, they cover the whole page, pretty much every time. Even slight shifts in character count could mess that up and require significant revision. I don't have a Paizo book to crack :( (my whole reason for ending up here is that I asked Paizo Customer Support about a metric version before I bought anything.:LOL:), but I am fast getting exactly that impression.
Kolokotroni wrote: Doing what you ask would be about as much effort as it took to do the 'lite pdfs' which is... What are the 'lite pdfs'? Are they just the PDF version of the physical editions?
Can we agree to use metric in Sci-Fi and imperial in fantasy? In real life the metric system is much better but in Ye Olden Tymes (that's The old times) people measured with what they had on hand, including hands in the case of horses and feet in the case of land. Personally I'd prefer more of that style of measurement because it makes the setting seem more lively to see that antiquated and outdated system in action.
Now admittedly picturing something in your head without being a bit familiar with the system can be difficult, knowing that something is within 20ft of you might mean the same thing as hearing it's 6 meters, but then I suppose some things that are more difficult can be fun. I mean you can't go to a star trek convention without stumbling across someone that put in the effort to learn Klingon or a fantasy convention without someone that's at least tried to learn one of the elven languages. All things considered leaning Imperial is probably not as hard.
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Guy Humual wrote: Can we agree to use metric in Sci-Fi and imperial in fantasy? In real life the metric system is much better but in Ye Olden Tymes (that's The old times) people measured with what they had on hand, including hands in the case of horses and feet in the case of land. Personally I'd prefer more of that style of measurement because it makes the setting seem more lively to see that antiquated and outdated system in action.
Now admittedly picturing something in your head without being a bit familiar with the system can be difficult, knowing that something is within 20ft of you might mean the same thing as hearing it's 6 meters, but then I suppose some things that are more difficult can be fun. I mean you can't go to a star trek convention without stumbling across someone that put in the effort to learn Klingon or a fantasy convention without someone that's at least tried to learn one of the elven languages. All things considered leaning Imperial is probably not as hard.
It's more than just learning the numbers; the system of measure you use is fundamental in the way you picture reality and visualize things.
For instance, while all of my players have at least a rough understanding of the basic Imperial units, telling them they have encountered a twenty-foot tall giant doesn't really get the message through quite as telling them it's six metres tall, because while they might be able to do the conversion, they can visualize something in metres much more naturally than they can with something in feet.
That's one of the reasons why, even though I have no particular problems dealing with Imperial units myself, I convert everything -and after so many years of doing it, now it's kind of automatic anyway-.
Woolfe wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote: Doing what you ask would be about as much effort as it took to do the 'lite pdfs' which is... What are the 'lite pdfs'? Are they just the PDF version of the physical editions?
Originally with PFRPG paizo was pretty adamanet that their pdfs would be identical to their printed books. in Particular they had the art and color at the highest quality. THis makes the pdfs friggan huge, even broken up by chapter, they load slowly, especially on tablets, which are getting more and more use at the gaming table. After a few years of requests, paizo finally released a 'lite' version of their harback rulebooks that have scaled down graphics, making them work better on tablets or slower computers. And even on full computers, they scroll and change pages much faster. There was clearly some effort put into layout as they differ fairly significantly from the printed books, but they still appear to follow many of the layout standards of paizo's other products.
Removed a post. Please leave personal insults out of the conversation.
I suppose I should not be surprised to see chris lambertz in a contraversial thread about the metric system.
re: Lite PDFs:
Kolokotroni wrote: There was clearly some effort put into layout as they differ fairly significantly from the printed books, but they still appear to follow many of the layout standards of paizo's other products. We really just simplified the page background.
Much of this rambling is partly for myself :) I too want a metric version of Pathfinder rules, so bear with me.
The most fundamental problem involved in converting Pathfinder’s 5-foot square to a metric one has nothing to do with the actual system involved, but with the number of squares involved. A human moves at 6 squares per round, a dwarf at 4 squares per round. During combat, every square matters, so we cannot really change the number of squares used.
Using the Imperial metrics a 5-foot square at 6 squares per round equals 30 feet. In one minute that becomes 300 feet, and then an hour becomes 18,000 feet (rounded to 3 miles-which is one league), and then in a 9 hour day we get to 162,000 feet which is 30.6 miles, rounded to 30 miles. BTW this is elegantly displayed as 30 – 300 – 3 – 30.
Now using Metric we have two possible options. First we can designate a square as 1 meter, second we can designate it as 1.5 meters. 2-meters will be obviously too much as we will see.
At 1-meter per square we get 6 meters per six seconds, which becomes 60 meters in a minute. Then we get 3,600 meters in an hour (round to 4 kilometers). In a 9 hour day we get 32,400 meters or about 32 kilometers. In the 1-meter situation our adventurer travels the equivalent of only 20 miles in a day. That is obviously much too slow.
The more optimum scale seems to be 1.5 meters per square, which at 6 squares a round is 9 meters per round. 9 meters per round equals 90 meters per minute, which becomes 5,400 meters per hour (5km), and in a 9 hour day becomes 48,600 meters (50km). At 48,600 meters it is 30.1 miles; almost exactly the distance of the 5-foot square. It also looks pretty cool, 9 – 90 – 5 – 50. The only real problem is we are moving at 1.5 units per square. This means instead of counting movement as 5 – 10 – 15 – 20 – 25 – 30, we count our movement as 1.5 – 3 – 4.5 – 6 – 7.5 – 9. Easy enough until you have to start adding in 1.5 squares for every other diagonal move! In that case the only real way to play the game is to count squares instead of actual distance. Then it just becomes a board game… it’s rather hard to role-play squares!
But I have been wanting a metric version of Pathfinder myself, and while writing this it seems, to me, that the optimum conversion is 1.5 meters per square should be used for each 5-square. During combat count in squares rather that meters, or more ideally, use hexes instead of squares! lol
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Sorry people, but whilst I live in a country that's been officially metric since before I was born, and I teach physics so I have a passing familiarity with the whole metric system thingy anyway, there is no way I can accept Pathfinder converting to metric units until an agreement can be reached on spelling metre correctly.
Reggie.
Krome wrote: The more optimum scale seems to be 1.5 meters per square, which at 6 squares a round is 9 meters per round. 9 meters per round equals 90 meters per minute, which becomes 5,400 meters per hour (5km), and in a 9 hour day becomes 48,600 meters (50km). At 48,600 meters it is 30.1 miles; almost exactly the distance of the 5-foot square. It also looks pretty cool, 9 – 90 – 5 – 50. The only real problem is we are moving at 1.5 units per square. This means instead of counting movement as 5 – 10 – 15 – 20 – 25 – 30, we count our movement as 1.5 – 3 – 4.5 – 6 – 7.5 – 9. Easy enough until you have to start adding in 1.5 squares for every other diagonal move! In that case the only real way to play the game is to count squares instead of actual distance. Then it just becomes a board game… it’s rather hard to role-play squares!
But I have been wanting a metric version of Pathfinder myself, and while writing this it seems, to me, that the optimum conversion is 1.5 meters per square should be used for each 5-square. During combat count in squares rather that meters, or more ideally, use hexes instead of squares! lol
I can't speak for every metric out there, but for my group and myself the conversion has become pretty commonplace, and that considering I have an unhealthy aversion to using the term "square" when playing, so it all gets converted straight into metres.
While objectively there is a bit more of math involved, in the end it's a matter of getting used to it, I think.
Reggie wrote: Sorry people, but whilst I live in a country that's been officially metric since before I was born, and I teach physics so I have a passing familiarity with the whole metric system thingy anyway, there is no way I can accept Pathfinder converting to metric units until an agreement can be reached on spelling metre correctly.
Reggie.
I seem to remember James Jacob mentioning that the writing policy for all Pathfinder (or Paizo material, for that matter) is to use US English for language uniformity, in which case the term would have to be "meter".
I see some of you are very passionate about this riveting point of rule.
So, I thought, wouldn't it be much simpler to convert "foot" into "meters", just like this:
"I'm a 5 feet gnome named Quiche Lisp."
would become
"I'm a 5 meter gnome named Quiche Lisp."
Voila ! Simple enough, no need to change any page layout, plus it would do wonders for my self-esteem !
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