I'm looking at making a monk character who specializes in some maneuvers to work as a bodyguard. I'm also planning on taking some Brawler levels to help out with lack of a bruiser and to get the feats faster. ANd I was thinking of picking up some vows that really suit the character.
At level 7 the build is Monk4/Ftr3. The question is, should those monk levels be regular or Maneuver Master? Here's a look at the feats, and a list of what I've identified as pros and cons
Feats:
Human Monk (Maneuver Master) 4/Brawler 3
1 IUS, Imp Trip, Imp Grapple, Ki Throw, Stunning Fist
2 Imp Disarm
3 Binding Throw
4
5 Snapping Turtle Style, Snapping Turtle Clutch
6 Combat Reflexes
7 Greater Grapple
Human Monk 4/Brawler 3
1 IUS, Combat Ex, Imp Grapple, Imp Trip, Stunning Fist
2 Combat Reflexes
3 Ki Throw
4
5 Snapping Turtle Style, Snapping Turtle Clutch
6 Binding Throw
7 Greater Grapple
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Maneuver Master Pros:
Skip Combat Expertise
Can grapple on a full attack
Reliable Maneuver ability allows an attack reroll for 1 Ki point.
Non maneuver attacks don't suffer the -2 penalty
Cons:
Can't use Ki to make additional attacks
Greater Grapple and binding throw almost recreates the benefit of flurry of maneuvers
Reliable maneuver, binding throw and turtle clutch all require a swift action.
At later levels, Maneuver penalties are INSANE
No vows due to loss of Still Mind
Regular Monk Pros:
Flurry of Blows
1 Ki point to make an additional flurry attack
Trip and Disarm can be used in a regular flurry
Can benefit from Vows
Cons:
Grapple will require a standard action
Must take Combat Expertise (losing out on Imp Disarm)
Extra Attack, Binding throw, and turtle clutch STILL all take a swift action
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I was hoping you could help me decide which would be better, but I'm also open to advice on reworking the build flow, but I'm pretty set on the style and overall feat choices. But nothing is in stone.
Thank you in advance.
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I mean, short answer yes. 1 level splash, not 4, for +2 to all saves, a feat, and .... A FREE ATTACK! No other 1 level splashes just throw in a free attack, much less one that can possibly replace a standard action.
If I were to do the build, I'd go like this:
Lore Warden 6 / Manuever Master 1
MM1: Improved Trip, IUS, Improved Grapple, Ki Throw
LW1: Combat Reflexes
LW2: Combat Expertise, Improved Dirty Trick
LW3: +2 All Manuevers
LW4: Binding Throw
LW5:
LW6: Greater Trip, Swift Dirty Trick
So let's see what this guy does:
As a standard action (when he doesn't get his iterative), he gets to:
*Move up to someone
*Trip them. He should be really good at this.
*When that person is tripped, reposition them via Binding Throw (if medium size)
*Use the AOO from Greater Trip to Swift Dirty Trick them, rendering them blind.
*Vicious Stomp them, doing damage from his unarmed strike
*Grapple them via Binding Throw.
And that's when I had to move. If I do NOT have to move, I can:
*Trip Person #1
*Reposition them
*AOO them (generally for damage, but possibly disarm)
*Vicious Stomp as an AOO to do unarmed damage
*Trip Person #2 (@ -5, since this is less likely to succeed, I do it first)
*Reposition them
*AOO to disarm them (I take an AOO too, but meh); or damage them
*Vicious Stomp to deal unamered damage
*Trip Person #3 (flurry of manuevers, full bonus)
*Reposition them
*AOO to blind them
*Vicious Stomp to deal unarmed damage
*Grapple them via blinding throw.
Lore Warden lets you get Combat Expertise without 13 int, and gives huge boosts to your CMB as you level up (preventing the trap you otherwise fall into).
Wow, I've seen lore warden, but never really looked at it. If you intend to use a trip for the flurry taking the -2 every time, especially on all three attacks, and not a grapple though, what's the benefit to Maneuver master 1 over monk 1? I'm thinking that after I grab Lore Warden level 7, I may go back to monk until I get a ki pool. I'll be able to get the extra flurry attack for more trip/stomp action. That would preclude using my swift to Bind though.
Like this:
Monk 1/ Lore Warden 6
1 IUS, Combat Reflexes, Snapping Turtle Style, Vicious Stomp
2 Imp Grapple
3 Combat Ex, Imp Trip, Imp Disarm
4
5 Ki Throw, Binding Throw
6
7 Greater Trip, Snap Turtle Clutch
Also, the style of character doesn't really allow Dirty Trick. I don't think it would violate a Vow of Truth literally, but it'd be rather inconsistent.
The only benefit I see to maneuver master here would be the ability to wear light armor. Oh, and I guess you'd get +1 CMB for the flurry maneuvers. But if I go back to monk at level 3 that gets picked up anyway.
So whaddya think?
MM gives an additional maneuver each turn for free AND lets you do dirty tricks, grapple or bul rush right before fullattacking. That is just <3
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Flexibility. First, Binding throw doesn't work on creatures larger than medium, so versus a large creature, you may want to:
*Trip Them
*Blind them (swift blind) as an AOO
*Vicious stomp for an AOO
*Attack with your -5 (Hopefully vs their blind tripped AC)
*Grapple them with Flurry of Manuevers
It also lets you pull off blinding two people in one turn; or blinding AND nauseating someone with 2 seperate dirty tricks. Again, raw flexibility wins the day.
Even if you do have a medium person, you might miss the grapple from binding throw and want to try again.
Oh, and finally, when using Flurry of Manuevers, you get full CMB bonus from the monk LEVEL and manuevers don't affects attacks (unlike attack flurry), so you're coming out ahead on hitting.
Even "Light armor" is not just fluff; brawling armor is one of the most efficient buys in the game. +2 to unarmed damage and +2 to trip/disarm/sunder AND Grapple? For only 5K, that's a bargain by ANY standards.
Lore Warden is sadly almost necessary (straight manuever master with a solid wis can help as well). As you get around level 10, you will sometimes be expected to grapple something with a 35+ CMD to be useful, so that static +4 bonus REALLY helps (and the +4 to CMD keeps them in the grapple).
Manuevering sadly takes a good bit of optimizing to remain viable beyond level 7-8. Usually combining Lore Warden with Manuever Master is the most efficient way to pull it off.
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Should look at the feat Felling Smash.
I know people hate vital strike but it working good in combo with Felling Smash.
You can use Felling Smash anytime you do an attack as a standard action and Vital Strike is a stanard action attack.
Just a thought if your looking to do more dmage while doing manuevers.
A really go standard action combo is...
Vital Stike which allows Felling Smash
Free swift action trip from Felling Smash
AoO from greater trip
AoO Ficious Stomp
Would you lose the ability to flurry of maneuver if you wear armor? It is a replacement ability. Also, why do you need ki throw to trigger Vicious Stomp? Wouldn't a normal trip do?
MM is worth it, if you play it in the right campaign. Are you slaying epic monsters that grow too big to use maneuvers on? You're gonna regret being a MM, as your damage will otherwise be pitiful (a truly 3/4 BAB class that has no steroid).
On the other hand, in a campaign mostly against races with class levels? You can have a lot of fun.
I just started playing one at lvl5, and he specializes in trip/dirty trick right now. Grapple could definitely be fun (in concept. The grapple rules are just kinda too wordy for me to like), but I took Mantis Style to have better stuns instead.
A friend of mine played a MM and loved it. Eventually, we got to bigger and bigger monsters, and he instantly lost his usefulness. He did find a loophole to be able to Flurry of Blows as a MM though: Maintain grapple, deal unarmed strike damage. Over and over. It was MORE efficient than regular unarmed strike, because he was targeting their CMD instead of their AC. Obviously, he also lost this with the larger monsters though.