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If you don't want a sword-and-board warrior, then you won't pick Viking as an archetype.
If you want to determine the value of something, you compare it to the closest alternative, not something completely different (there's a saying about that with fruit I think...)
Why don't you build your own sword-and-board fighter or barbarian, and see for yourself what happens when you switch it to Viking.
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A 10th level fighters who spend 10 feats in crossbow shoudl be on part with a 10 level fighter that spend 9 feats on archery, IMHo. They are not. Daggers and great sword are very diferents in the game, crossbows are just bad longbows.But this conversation is not appropiate for this thread.
I completely disagree that this an iappropriate conversation. It actually speaks volumes about the issue.
You're ignoring all of the other variables involved between a crossbow and longbow and what niche they fill.A crossbow is a simple weapon. It can be used by anyone. A longbow is a martial weapon requiring special training to use. It is available to smaller group of people because those trained to wield it have inherent advantages. Any cleric or can pick up a crossbow, but they can't effectively use a longbow. Similarly, a fighter who uses a crossbow will be better with it than the cleric, but not necessarily better than the fighter who went with the superior specialized weapon.
There's a similar idea underlying archetypes. Archetypes may not be as good at doing everything the base class can do, but they've got a niche that they fill that they are uniquely suited for. A Viking is uniquely suited to using a shield, gains access to Rage, can Demoralize at reduced action cost, etc.
This gives a unique subset of capabilities that allow him or her to be better in certain areas than the base class, amongst those being defense, saves, action economy, and skill use.
I have some time so I'll knock something out. If I can make it awesome, might even stick it in my TWF fighter guide.
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I never say I d not want a sword and boar warrior. if you can build A sword and baord viking that cancompete against a barbarian/fighter I would like to see it.
A viking is meant to do the same as fighter/barbarian, this is to kill and not get killed in the meantime. Is the Viking better or worse than those other calsses in general? is he balanced agaisnt those other alternatives?
You need to compare apples to apples not apples to oranges. You compare a Viking to a fighter or barbarian that uses the same parameters (in this case, fighting with a shield). Why is that so hard to understand? If you don't want to use a shield, you don't play a Viking. Saying "show me a Viking who does as much damage as a THF barbarian" is assinine. They're doing two different things.
The Viking has better defense than the THF Barbarian, better saves and versatility than the Fighter, and has a unique ability that allows him to utilize a skill more efficiently but he's not a better THF than the Barbarian, because he's not designed as a THF. There's a different archetype for that. Just because you can't cram an archetype into a niche it wasn't meant to fill does not mean it is a bad archetype.|
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That is the idea, I get it. But does the idea get reflected when you make a viking? I said no because I have tried several times to do it and failed. Of course, it can be that I just have bad system mastery, and I would be glad if someone prove me wrong, because this is an arcehtype I really would like to like.
My statement is, a viking is a bad fighter or a bad barbarian, never on par with those vanilla classes.
And I think it can only be disprove with actual builds.
And there's your problem. He's not a Fighter, and he's not a Barbarian. He fills a unique niche between the two. You don't play a Viking instead of a Fighter or a Barbarian, you play a Viking because you want to play a Viking. And he does the particular things he's designed to do better than either of the other base classes, because he's combining specific elements of the two classes.
Your whole premise is flawed in trying to say "Is a Viking a better Fighter than a Fighter or a better Barbarian than a Barbarian?" Of course he isn't. He's a better Viking, and he does the things Vikings are designed to do very well. Your whole "show me a build " premise is just bear-baiting foolishness, because you've already stated that you want to compare apples to oranges and discuss which makes a better peach.
So I'll see your "show me a build" and raise you one: You show me a sword and board Barbarian or Fighter who's better at being a Viking than a Viking, and then I'll match your build with a Viking that's a better Viking.
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Okay... here's a couple of stat blocks. Yes, I know they're not optimized but I think they'll show that if most things are equal, there isn't a significant difference in effectiveness between a Viking, and Barbarian/Fighter. Of the builds, the pure fighter has the best AC and the Barbarian likely has the best damage output (Pounce).
Also, yes... Dazzling Display ≈ Biting Shield. These are supposed to be Vikings... ;)
Barbarian CR 10
XP 9600
Human (Ulfen) Barbarian 11
N Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 13, flat-footed 19 (+6 armor, +3 shield, +3 Dex)
hp 104 (11d12+22)
Fort +9, Ref +6 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +3; +4 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities while raging but must resist all spells, even allies'
Defensive Abilities improved uncanny dodge (lv >=15), trap sense; DR 2/—
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +14/+9/+4 (1d6+3/x2) and
. . Masterwork Battleaxe +16/+11/+6 (1d8+3/x3)
Special Attacks rage (26 rounds/day), rage powers (beast totem +3 ac, beast totem, greater, beast totem, lesser, intimidating glare, superstition +4)
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Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +11; CMB +14; CMD 27
Feats Improved Shield Bash, Raging Vitality, Shield Focus, Shield Master, Shield Slam, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Battleaxe)
Skills Acrobatics +0 (+4 jump), Climb +0, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Intimidate +14, Knowledge (nature) +12, Perception +12, Profession (sailor) +13, Ride +0, Stealth +0, Survival +12, Swim +14; Racial Modifiers +2 Profession (sailor), +2 Swim
Languages Common, Skald
SQ fast movement +10, heart of the sea
Other Gear Mithral Chainmail, Masterwork Shield Spikes Heavy wooden shield, Masterwork Battleaxe, You have no money!
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Rage (26 rounds/day) (Ex) - 0/26
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Special Abilities
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Beast Totem +3 AC (Su) +3 Natural Armor while raging.
Beast Totem, Greater (Su) Pounce ability and 1d8 claw damage while raging
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 d6 claw attacks while raging
Damage Reduction (2/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Heart of the Sea +4 concentration to cast spells underwater, and you can hold your breath twice as long.
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=15) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 15+.
Intimidating Glare (Ex) While raging, use Intimidate to shake your opponents.
Rage (26 rounds/day) (Ex) +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Vitality +2 CON while raging, Rage does not end if you become unconscious.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Shield Master No off-hand penalties for shield bashes, add a shield's enhancement bonus to attack rolls.
Shield Slam Shield Bash attack gives a free bull rush on a hit.
Superstition +4 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs magic, but must resist all spells, even allies'.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
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Barbarian/Fighter CR 10
XP 9600
Human (Ulfen) Barbarian 2/Fighter 9
N Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 13, flat-footed 21 (+9 armor, +2 shield, +3 Dex)
hp 95 (2d12+9d10+22)
Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +3 (+2 vs. fear); +2 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities while raging but must resist all spells, even allies'
Defensive Abilities bravery +2, uncanny dodge
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +16/+11/+6 (1d6+4/x2) and
. . Masterwork Battleaxe +18/+13/+8 (1d8+7/x3)
Special Attacks rage (8 rounds/day), rage powers (superstition +2), weapon training abilities (axes +2, close +1)
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Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +11; CMB +14; CMD 27
Feats Bludgeoner, Dazzling Display (Shield, Heavy), Enforcer, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Raging Vitality, Shield Master, Shield Slam, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Battleaxe), Weapon Focus (Shield, Heavy), Weapon Specialization (Battleaxe)
Skills Acrobatics +1 (+5 jump), Climb +1, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Intimidate +14, Perform (oratory) +6, Profession (sailor) +11, Ride +1, Stealth +1, Survival +9, Swim +12; Racial Modifiers +2 Profession (sailor), +2 Swim
Languages Common, Skald
SQ fast movement +10, heart of the sea
Other Gear Mithral Full plate, Masterwork Shield Spikes Heavy wooden shield, Masterwork Battleaxe, You have no money!
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Rage (8 rounds/day) (Ex) - 0/8
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Special Abilities
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Bludgeoner Inflict nonlethal damage with bludgeoning weapons
Bravery +2 (Ex) +2 to Will save vs. Fear
Dazzling Display (Shield, Heavy) Intimidate check to demoralize can affect those within 30' who see you.
Enforcer If you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, make a free Intimidate check to demoralize.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Heart of the Sea +4 concentration to cast spells underwater, and you can hold your breath twice as long.
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Rage (8 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Vitality +2 CON while raging, Rage does not end if you become unconscious.
Shield Master No off-hand penalties for shield bashes, add a shield's enhancement bonus to attack rolls.
Shield Slam Shield Bash attack gives a free bull rush on a hit.
Superstition +2 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs magic, but must resist all spells, even allies'.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
Weapon Training (Axes) +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Axes
Weapon Training (Close) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
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Fighter CR 10
XP 9600
Human (Ulfen) Fighter 11
N Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 27, touch 14, flat-footed 23 (+9 armor, +4 shield, +4 Dex)
hp 92 (11d10+22)
Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +3 (+3 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +3
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +16/+11/+6 (1d6+4/x2) and
. . Masterwork Battleaxe +18/+13/+8 (1d8+7/x3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (axes +2, close +1)
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Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +11; CMB +14; CMD 28
Feats Bludgeoner, Dazzling Display (Shield, Heavy), Enforcer, Greater Shield Focus, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Shield Focus, Shield Master, Shield Slam, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Battleaxe), Weapon Focus (Shield, Heavy), Weapon Specialization (Battleaxe)
Skills Acrobatics +3, Climb +2, Escape Artist +3, Fly +3, Intimidate +14, Perform (oratory) +5, Profession (sailor) +11, Ride +3, Stealth +3, Survival +8, Swim +13; Racial Modifiers +2 Profession (sailor), +2 Swim
Languages Common, Skald
SQ heart of the sea
Other Gear Mithral Full plate, Masterwork Shield Spikes Heavy wooden shield, Masterwork Battleaxe, You have no money!
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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. . -none-
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Special Abilities
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Bludgeoner Inflict nonlethal damage with bludgeoning weapons
Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Dazzling Display (Shield, Heavy) Intimidate check to demoralize can affect those within 30' who see you.
Enforcer If you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, make a free Intimidate check to demoralize.
Heart of the Sea +4 concentration to cast spells underwater, and you can hold your breath twice as long.
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Shield Master No off-hand penalties for shield bashes, add a shield's enhancement bonus to attack rolls.
Shield Slam Shield Bash attack gives a free bull rush on a hit.
Weapon Training (Axes) +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Axes
Weapon Training (Close) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
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Viking CR 10
XP 9600
Human (Ulfen) Fighter (Viking) 11
N Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 13, flat-footed 22 (+6 armor, +6 shield, +3 Dex)
hp 92 (11d10+22)
Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +3; +4 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities while raging but must resist all spells, even allies'
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +15/+10/+5 (1d6+3/x2) and
. . Masterwork Battleaxe +16/+11/+6 (1d8+5/x3)
Special Attacks fearsome (swift action), rage (20 rounds/day)
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Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +11; CMB +14; CMD 27
Feats Dazzling Display (Shield, Heavy), Gory Finish, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Raging Vitality, Shield Focus, Shield Master, Shield Slam, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Battleaxe), Weapon Focus (Shield, Heavy), Weapon Specialization (Battleaxe)
Skills Acrobatics +0, Climb +0, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Intimidate +14, Perform (oratory) +5, Profession (sailor) +11, Ride +0, Stealth +0, Survival +8, Swim +11; Racial Modifiers +2 Profession (sailor), +2 Swim
Languages Common, Skald
SQ heart of the sea, rage powers (superstition +4), shield defense +3
Other Gear Mithral Chainmail, Masterwork Shield Spikes Heavy wooden shield, Masterwork Battleaxe, You have no money!
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Rage (20 rounds/day) (Ex) - 0/20
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Special Abilities
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Dazzling Display (Shield, Heavy) Intimidate check to demoralize can affect those within 30' who see you.
Fearsome (swift action) (Ex) More quickly make Intimidate checks to demoralize foes.
Gory Finish Make an Intimidate check if you reduce an opponent to negative hit points
Heart of the Sea +4 concentration to cast spells underwater, and you can hold your breath twice as long.
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Rage (20 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Vitality +2 CON while raging, Rage does not end if you become unconscious.
Shield Defense +3 Additional shield bonus when wielding shield and not wearing heavy armor.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Shield Master No off-hand penalties for shield bashes, add a shield's enhancement bonus to attack rolls.
Shield Slam Shield Bash attack gives a free bull rush on a hit.
Superstition +4 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs magic, but must resist all spells, even allies'.
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So I'll see your "show me a build" and raise you one: You show me a sword and board Barbarian or Fighter who's better at being a Viking than a Viking, and then I'll match your build with a Viking that's a better Viking.
Those were my thoughts as well... so when I built a couple different ones I tried to stick to "axe and board intimidator" as much as possible.
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It looks to me like you captured the flsvour well. I like the perform oratory. They all seem about par with eachother.
I used to think like you. But a Dev told me that Somethings are just designed to be plain superior and some other things are just designed to be inferior.
Probably I am just overreacting, but this is how i feel since this thread
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pvkj?False-Options-in-Pathfinder#1
Ah. That was an interesting thread to read, though dispiriting in some ways. I do remember the outcry on these forums after Paizo published a deliberately awful version of the mystical ascetic/vow of poverty trope, and I had hoped the philosophy had changed somewhat after that.
Thanks for the link, anyway. The thread also made me want to try to write a decent crossbowman archetype, maybe doing away with any form of speedy reload whatsoever in favor of the one big shot approach.
And there's your problem. He's not a Fighter, and he's not a Barbarian. He fills a unique niche between the two. You don't play a Viking instead of a Fighter or a Barbarian, you play a Viking because you want to play a Viking. And he does the particular things he's designed to do better than either of the other base classes, because he's combining specific elements of the two classes.
What I/you want (or not) to play do not say much about the mechanics of the particular archetype.
Still, here is a quick build
** spoiler omitted **...
Why change to 12th level?
just because, what level would you like? 10th, 15th?Why change to 12th level?Still, here is a quick build
** spoiler omitted **...
I don't care. I was just curious because you said 10th, then someone posted four 10th level builds, then you posted a 12th level build. So I was just curious.
Criticism for this one?
The idea is to Main Hand a LARGE SHIELD and offhand a cestus.
That allows you to 2handed shield bash when you move or AOO, thus getting the 1 to 3 PA Ratio.
Race:
Human- Skilled race feature
Traits- Optimistic Gambler, Defender of the Society
1-Improved Shieldbash, Power Attack
2-Weapon Fcs:Shield,Fearsome
3-Shield Defense +1, TWF
4-Weapon VersatilityBerserker
5- Combat Reflexes
6- Shield Slam, H-Skill Focus:Intimidate
7- Shield Defense +2 Improved TWF
8- Gtr Weapon Focus : Shield
9- Arcane Heritage:Orc Bloodline (lasts 1+1d4rds from trait)
10-Superstition
11- Shield Defense +3,Shield Master
12-Pin down , Retrain Weapon Versatility for Dazing Assault , Skill Focus:Survival
13- Quicken SLA: Touch of Rage
14 Witchunter
15-Shield Defense +4
16-Reckless Abandon, Retrain Pin down for Come and Get Me
17- Improved Eldritch Heritage
18- Doubleslice
19- Armor Mastery Two Weapon Rend
20- Weapon Mastery, Inspire Ferocity
20point buy
STR 16 (14+2human) 5 POINTS (stat bump 12, 16 for 18)
DEX 15 , 7 POINTS (stat bump 4, 8 for 17)
CON 14, 5 POINTS
INT 10, 0 POINTS
WIS 10, 0 POINTS
CHA 13, 3 POINTS (stat bump 20 for 14)
Favored bonus goes to skills= 2class+1Human+1favored= 4per level
Assuming WBL
He would have 0/-2 penalties for TWF a Shield/Cestus
BAB 20+10(18Str+Belt of Physical Perfection+Improved Eldritch Heritage)+5 (Reckless Abandon)+1 (Wpn Fcs)+5+3 (+5 Courageous, Furious, Cruel Large Bashing Shield)+4 (Rage, Furious)-6(Power Attack)-5(Dazing Assault)= Attack of 37 main hand.
Pretty sweet considering Dazing Assault and Power Attack are on.
That's without adding TOUCH OF RAGE.
Your shield is priced inaccurately.
You need to price it as a +5 Bashing Shield, then as a +1 Courageous, Furious, Cruel Large (spiked?) shield. The Armor and weapon enhancements are priced seperately.
It'll effectively be +5 as a weapon when bashing. On top of this, you eventually want to make it a +5 Defender weapon, so you can add +5 Defending AC and still keep it a +5 Enhancement on the defense side, i.e. an Uber Shield.
So, 36k for +6 Armor, +32k for +4 Weapon= 68k. That's only marginally higher then the 64k you thought it was worth as a +8 weapon. But the weapon enhancements start getting really pricey hereafter.
==Aelryinth
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The viking is intended to get only the base rage ability, not greater rage, tireless rage, or mighty rage, which are separate barbarian class abilities. A viking is a fighter who can rage; it is not a fighter who picks up the full progression of another class's primary feature. And as others have said, rage provides more than just a +2 to hit and damage.
giving up all of weapon training, to gain one (incomplete) class feature of another class, is a lot to trade away. and then the character must continue to choose to trade away fighter bonus feats, in order to take rage powers.
if you only ever want a couple of rounds of rage per combat, and you're not looking for higher level rage powers, you can already do that by multiclassing, then you get to combine weapon training, rage, and having loads of feats.
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I don't care. I was just curious because you said 10th, then someone posted four 10th level builds, then you posted a 12th level build. So I was just curious.just because, what level would you like? 10th, 15th?Why change to 12th level?Still, here is a quick build
** spoiler omitted **...
I know you didn't ask me, but I built mine at 11th to allow for Shield Master, and some better Rage options for the pure Barbarian.
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The viking is intended to get only the base rage ability, not greater rage, tireless rage, or mighty rage, which are separate barbarian class abilities. A viking is a fighter who can rage; it is not a fighter who picks up the full progression of another class's primary feature. And as others have said, rage provides more than just a +2 to hit and damage.giving up all of weapon training, to gain one (incomplete) class feature of another class, is a lot to trade away. and then the character must continue to choose to trade away fighter bonus feats, in order to take rage powers.
if you only ever want a couple of rounds of rage per combat, and you're not looking for higher level rage powers, you can already do that by multiclassing, then you get to combine weapon training, rage, and having loads of feats.
However, if you want more than a couple rounds of Rage per combat and access to higher level Rage powers without breaking your Fighter progression, Viking is better. You also progress your Shield Training while progressing your fighter levels and effective barbarian levels, so you end defensively superior to a multiclassed character.
I know you didn't ask me, but I built mine at 11th to allow for Shield Master, and some better Rage options for the pure Barbarian.I don't care. I was just curious because you said 10th, then someone posted four 10th level builds, then you posted a 12th level build. So I was just curious.just because, what level would you like? 10th, 15th?Why change to 12th level?Still, here is a quick build
** spoiler omitted **...
Missed that completely. I saw CR 10 and changed it to Level 10 in my mind. Just ignore everything I've said in this thread!
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Actually, a fighter/barbarian can use towershields and heavy armor, unlike the viking. He could defensively match him (unless the viking spends feats on training or multiclasses)
In exchange for being the idiot running around with a tower shield taking the gigantic armor check penalty and a hit to attack, making the Viking look even better by comparison. A Viking can wear Mithril Full Plate and still benefit from all of his abilities, so no real loss there.
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Except of course that the fighter/barb has weapon training (and also the option to use duelist gloves) to make up for the penalty to to-hit from the tower shield. AlsoA character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.I might be missing something, but that seems like -3 to attack rolls to me unless you spend a feat on heavy armor proficiency.
He has Weapon Training, which is being burned to compensate for the Tower Shield, which pushes him back behind the Viking....
The Mithral Full Plate was a good point, I'd forgotten about that exception. Change that to mithral "any heavy armor except full plate" and we're good again though.
I think Unseelie did a pretty awesome job of illustrating the variances in his builds though, and it does a good job of illustrating the balance.
The Mithral Full Plate was a good point, I'd forgotten about that exception. Change that to mithral "any heavy armor except full plate" and we're good again though.
Full plate is not the exception - all mithral armor except elven chainmail still requires proficiency in the original armor type.
celestial doesn't require the original armor proficiency, so there is that plate version floating around somewhere.
all armor requires the original proficiency.
The Viking's bonus from his shield is mechanically superior to the straight line fighter, because the straight fighter almost never is able to maximize his higher dex bonus, while the Viking simply gets the AC bonus.
It's weird to think of the Viking as the highest AC fighter Archetype, yet that's exactly what it is.
==Aelryinth
all armor requires the original proficiency.
The Viking's bonus from his shield is mechanically superior to the straight line fighter, because the straight fighter almost never is able to maximize his higher dex bonus, while the Viking simply gets the AC bonus.
It's weird to think of the Viking as the highest AC fighter Archetype, yet that's exactly what it is.
==Aelryinth
Are you sure? I checked the text in my book and it says its light armor. I did assume that the heavier version would have similar verbiage though.
Celestial Armor
Aura faint transmutation [good]; CL 5th; Weight 20 lbs.; Price 22,400 gp
DESCRIPTION
This +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fly, creator must be good; Cost 11,350 gp
Just posting the text from the pfsrd because its identical to what my book says.
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Actually, a fighter/barbarian can use towershields and heavy armor, unlike the viking. He could defensively match him (unless the viking spends feats on training or multiclasses)
True, but you can't bash with a tower shield... so now we're talking a fairly different type of character. There's a reason I didn't build one that way. I did go with mithral heavy armor for the barbarian/fighter though.
Of course, now it occurs to me that there's no real reason why you couldn't build a barbarian/viking... hmm.
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all armor requires the original proficiency.
The Viking's bonus from his shield is mechanically superior to the straight line fighter, because the straight fighter almost never is able to maximize his higher dex bonus, while the Viking simply gets the AC bonus.
It's weird to think of the Viking as the highest AC fighter Archetype, yet that's exactly what it is.
==Aelryinth
It's why the Viking is actually a good candidate for TWF... in addition to his shield bonuses, they're more likely to be dex maximized on AC since, by necessity, their dex is decent.
Wouldn't it make more sense to start out with a lower dexterity and pick up the higher twf feats when you get your dexterity enhanced?
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Okay, I can see why you *wouldn't* build a Barbarian/Viking now... they have almost as good of AC as the Fighter, and slightly better than the pure Viking... but losing all of that weapon spec neuters them on their to hit.
All told, the Viking isn't quite as good at hitting as a Fighter, but their AC is as good or better and they have a b%&#+in' intimidate ability at 10th level. I'd play one. It feels right for the archetype... axe & board, and just as fine with taking someone as a thrall as killing them (if necessary).
Barbarian/Viking CR 10
XP 9600
Human (Ulfen) Barbarian 2/Fighter (Viking) 9
N Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 13, flat-footed 23 (+9 armor, +4 shield, +3 Dex)
hp 95 (2d12+9d10+22)
Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +3; +2 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities while raging but must resist all spells, even allies'
Defensive Abilities uncanny dodge
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +12/+7/+2 (1d6+3/x2) and
. . Masterwork Battleaxe +13/+8/+3 (1d8+5/x3)
Special Attacks fearsome (move action), rage (20 rounds/day), rage powers (superstition +2)
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Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +11; CMB +11; CMD 27
Feats Bludgeoner, Dazzling Display (Shield, Heavy), Enforcer, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Raging Vitality, Shield Master, Shield Slam, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Battleaxe), Weapon Focus (Shield, Heavy), Weapon Specialization (Battleaxe)
Skills Acrobatics -1, Climb -1, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Intimidate +14, Perform (oratory) +6, Profession (sailor) +11, Ride -1, Stealth -1, Survival +9, Swim +10; Racial Modifiers +2 Profession (sailor), +2 Swim
Languages Common, Skald
SQ fast movement +10, heart of the sea, shield defense +2
Other Gear Mithral Full plate, Masterwork Shield Spikes Heavy wooden shield, Masterwork Battleaxe, You have no money!
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Rage (20 rounds/day) (Ex) - 0/20
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Special Abilities
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Bludgeoner Inflict nonlethal damage with bludgeoning weapons
Dazzling Display (Shield, Heavy) Intimidate check to demoralize can affect those within 30' who see you.
Enforcer If you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, make a free Intimidate check to demoralize.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Fearsome (move action) (Ex) More quickly make Intimidate checks to demoralize foes.
Heart of the Sea +4 concentration to cast spells underwater, and you can hold your breath twice as long.
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Rage (20 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Vitality +2 CON while raging, Rage does not end if you become unconscious.
Shield Defense +2 Additional shield bonus when wielding shield and not wearing heavy armor.
Shield Master No off-hand penalties for shield bashes, add a shield's enhancement bonus to attack rolls.
Shield Slam Shield Bash attack gives a free bull rush on a hit.
Superstition +2 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs magic, but must resist all spells, even allies'.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
Yes, if you don't have the original armor proficiency, you take the penalty on attack rolls. Being made of mithral or celestial doesnt' remove that. It's a big change from 3.5.
A Viking's dex isn't likely to be any higher then a fighter's.
But he gets the AC bonus even if his dex is in the TOILET. Big change. The fighter needs massive dex to ever have a chance of maxing out his class ability, while the Viking can just buy armor that allows him to do the same.
Plus, the Viking has access to the Rage Powers of Improved Natural Armor, which scales, and Guarded stance, which is a scaling dodge bonus.
His AC can be totally nutso.
Yes, no weapon training can hurt him. Blowing 4 feats to try to keep in the race is supremely annoying. On the other hand, he can take AC penalties the other classes can't, like Reckless Offensive, and it merely takes him back down to their AC.
Interesting and strange mechanics.
==Aelryinth
Yes, if you don't have the original armor proficiency, you take the penalty on attack rolls. Being made of mithral or celestial doesnt' remove that. It's a big change from 3.5.
A Viking's dex isn't likely to be any higher then a fighter's.
But he gets the AC bonus even if his dex is in the TOILET. Big change. The fighter needs massive dex to ever have a chance of maxing out his class ability, while the Viking can just buy armor that allows him to do the same.
Plus, the Viking has access to the Rage Powers of Improved Natural Armor, which scales, and Guarded stance, which is a scaling dodge bonus.
His AC can be totally nutso.
Yes, no weapon training can hurt him. Blowing 4 feats to try to keep in the race is supremely annoying. On the other hand, he can take AC penalties the other classes can't, like Reckless Offensive, and it merely takes him back down to their AC.
Interesting and strange mechanics.
==Aelryinth
Mithral Full Plate of Speed
Aura faint transmutation; CL 5th; Weight 25 lbs.; Price 26,500 gp
DESCRIPTION
As a free action, the wearer of this fine set of +1 mithral full plate can activate it, enabling him to act as though affected by a haste spell for up to 10 rounds each day. The duration of the haste effect need not be consecutive rounds. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 25%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +3, and an armor check penalty of –3. It is considered medium armor, except that you must be proficient in heavy armor to avoid taking nonproficiency penalties.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Cost 18,500 gp
See the difference in the wording Aelryinth? mithral calls for proficiency, celestial does not.
Exactly.
The rule is that you need proficiency, unless it says otherwise. I'd be using your example as proof of my position, not yours, Trogdar. the language is there because of how misleading mithral has been in the past, not because Celestial breaks the rules.
==Aelryinth
Eh, sounds like crazy talk to me. Whatever floats your boat.