Hi all,
I recently started playing PFS and enjoyed the mission we did :)
Before I started playing I went a bit crazy and made several characters.
One of those is an alchemist, which I would like to play somewhere in the near future, but I have some questions concerning Alchemists in PFS.
I hope someone can help me with these :
1) I had an idea for my character and was wondering if the archetypes Mindchemist & Beastmorph can be combined? With that I mostly wonder if the effect of the beastmorph archetype can be added to the cognatogen discovery.
2) Which bonuses can be applied to a dayjob roll for an alchemist using Craft(Alchemy)? I know that at the very least Skill Focus(Craft(Alchemy)) should help, but what about the following :
- the Alchemy class feature of the alchemist?
- Alchemical Adept
- other traits that give a Craft(Alchemy) bonus (if alchemical adept does not apply)
- crafter's fortune
- other things I'm not aware off?
3) Which bonuses can be applied to the Craft(Alchemy) check when using a Hybridization funnel?
I know that at the very least Skill Focus(Craft(Alchemy)) should help, but what about the following :
- the Alchemy class feature of the alchemist?
- Alchemical Adept
- other traits that give a Craft(Alchemy) bonus (if alchemical adept does not apply)
- crafter's fortune
- other things I'm not aware off?
These were the questions I currently have.
Thanks for looking and hope you can help :)
1) Yes. They can be taken together, as they do not replace or modify any of the same class features. The cognatogen description says that other than buffing mental stats instead of physical ones, "this ability works just like the mutagen ability." So, the beastmorph's mutagen-buffing abilities would also apply.
2) There was a big debate about this pretty recently on this same forum, you can probably find it with the search function.
3) I'd say anything that applies to the general 'craft alchemical items' check also applies to the Hybridization Funnel. All of the above.
1) Yes. They can be taken together, as they do not replace or modify any of the same class features. The cognatogen description says that other than buffing mental stats instead of physical ones, "this ability works just like the mutagen ability." So, the beastmorph's mutagen-buffing abilities would also apply.
They do exactly that. Mindchemist replaces mutagen with cognatogen (the Mindchemist can take mutagen as a discovery, I think would be proof they don't have it.) and Beastmorph modifies mutagen by giving you extra abilities.
I'm going by the Alchemist SRD, which does not list the Beastmorph archetype as changing or modifying the mutagen class feature. Beastform Mutagen doesn't have the usual "this ability replaces X" or "this functions as X, but" clauses. In fact, it replaces an entirely different class feature.
I'd rule Beastform Mutagen as a separate ability that cues off of, but does not actually 'modify' Mutagen, which makes it valid with Mindchemist.
Even if you want to argue that adding abilities to a mutagen does not modify it, you're still left with the fact that Mindchemist does not have mutagen. They have cognatogen and have to use a discovery to take mutagen. Beastmorph mutagen wouldn't work with cognatogen.
So if I get it right, the archetypes can be combined, it's just not clear wether or not the effects from the "beastfrom mutagen" can be applied to a cognatogen.
I mostly wanted to combine the two because the character wants to learn more about creatures and their abilities/weaknesses (will at some point have all the knowledge skills he needs for creature identification), but he personally thinks that by taking on aspects of those creatures he will be capable of understanding them better.
But like I said before, the beastmorph part can be taken out if it doesn't combine with the cognatogen. (Not like I was planning on drinking to many cognatogens in short succession [as I read somewhere that there is no limit on the amount you can brew in a single day, just on how many you can have on you, which is one], with the ability damage that comes with it.)
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There is no limit (except for brew time) that says how many you can brew, but only 1 can be "active". You cannot carry a stockpile of 20 mutagens. Once you brew a second one, the first one becomes inert. At higher levels, in theory you could drink one (with the effect lasting >60 minutes) and brew another while still under the effects of the one. So you would have one active, and one in reserve. But you would not have a lot of time remaining on that one. Other ways you can get more "uses" of your mutagens per day are either the infuse mutagen discovery (but that costs 1k gold and 2 int damage to make each new one), or the master chymst prestige class (which gives you the "mutate" power 2/day). Cognatogen states
Otherwise, this ability works just like the mutagen ability (including the natural armor bonus). Anytime the alchemist would prepare a mutagen, he may instead prepare a cognatogen. All limitations of mutagens apply to cognatogens as if they were the same substance—an alchemist can only maintain one mutagen or cognatogen at a time, a cognatogen that is not in an alchemist’s possession becomes inert, drinking a cognatogen makes a non-alchemist sick, and so on. When the effect of the cognatogen ends, the alchemist takes 2 points of ability damage to the ability score penalized by the cognatogen. The infuse mutagen discovery and the persistent mutagen class ability apply to cognatogens.
So I would rule that Beastmorph effects would work under Cognatogen.
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*SNIP*
So I would rule that Beastmorph effects would work under Cognatogen.
You're emphasizing words that, taken out of context, sound like they would apply to Beastmorph.
Otherwise, this ability works just like the mutagen ability (including the natural armor bonus).
This just explains the mechanical benefits granted by the cognatogen ability, so players know the baseline. It does not say it counts AS mutagen - it just says it gives similar powers.
Anytime the alchemist would prepare a mutagen, he may instead prepare a cognatogen. All limitations of mutagens apply to cognatogens as if they were the same substance—an alchemist can only maintain one mutagen or cognatogen at a time, a cognatogen that is not in an alchemist’s possession becomes inert, drinking a cognatogen makes a non-alchemist sick, and so on.
This does not say that cognatogen is mutagen, nor does it say that things that modify mutagen modify cognatogen.
When the effect of the cognatogen ends, the alchemist takes 2 points of ability damage to the ability score penalized by the cognatogen. The infuse mutagen discovery and the persistent mutagen class ability apply to cognatogens.
These two mutagen-only abilities apply to cognatogens. If all mutagen-only abilities applied to cognatogens, it would say so.
Mindchemist loses the mutagen ability and gains a similar ability. He does not modify mutagen, he replaces mutagen.
If you want a Mindchemist Beastmorph, take the Mutagen discovery, and get Mutagen back.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I'm going by the Alchemist SRD,
You realize that's just a fansite, right? It's got about as much authority as any random user's post on the messageboards.
Anything on the SRD that isn't a verbatim copy-paste from actual rulebooks is just the opinion of a fan who volunteered to write something up and post it to the site. For that matter, even things that ARE (presented as) actual rules can be suspect, as it's not unheard of for volunteers to re-word things (or even write their own stuff) but leave them labeled as having been published that way by Paizo.The SRD is a great compendium of content, but is far from a dependable rules resource.
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I'm going by the Alchemist SRD,You realize that's just a fansite, right? It's got about as much authority as any random user's post on the messageboards.
Anything on the SRD that isn't a verbatim copy-paste from actual rulebooks is just the opinion of a fan who volunteered to write something up and post it to the site. For that matter, even things that ARE (presented as) actual rules can be suspect, as it's not unheard of for volunteers to re-word things (or even write their own stuff) but leave them labeled as having been published that way by Paizo.The SRD is a great compendium of content, but is far from a dependable rules resource.
You're just as likely to have an out of date rule book or something without the latest erratta.
And there are difference in the qualities of the poster. You're not exactly random, either is PFSRD.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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You're just as likely to have an out of date rule book or something without the latest erratta.
Yes, and people trying to determine how something works should take heed. Just like they should take heed of the nature of the SRD. Any time you're using anything other than "the latest errata and FAQ", you're risking misinformation. I just want people to be making informed decisions about how much risk they're okay with. :)
And there are difference in the qualities of the poster. You're not exactly random, either is PFSRD.
Thanks, but "I'm just going by what Jiggy said" won't cut it at my tables, and neither will "I'm just going by PFSRD" (or HeroLab, for that matter).
Sure, the SRD isn't Paizo gospel, but in the absence of said it's at least a useful barometer.
So if I get it right, the archetypes can be combined, it's just not clear wether or not the effects from the "beastfrom mutagen" can be applied to a cognatogen.
I'd let you run the combo at my table. "Works just like the mutagen ability," means it is subject to same restrictions, as well as the same advantages, of the normal mutagen. Archetype descriptions shouldn't be expected to list off every single corner case interaction, the infuse and persistent mutagen discoveries are just the most important.
Not everyone sees it this way, however, so run the combo at your own risk. If you play mostly within a local circle, ask your GM(s) and go from there. You're not risking much by just taking Beastmorph anyway. For a PFS Mindchemist, swift alchemy and swift poisoning are both useless, so if you're okay giving up poison resistance, you can roll with it and hope most of your GMs are accommodating.
@Jiggy, I know that what is on the PFSRD isn't always 100% correct, but I usually reference it because I personally find things on there better ordered than on the paizo prd in 90% of the cases and easier to reference, because when referencing an archetype will only give you that one archetype and not the 3-4 others that were in the book where it came from :)
Usually when I am at home, I check multiple sources to see if there's a difference between what is written in the online resources and in the books.
@Zahmahkibo,
Well good to know it would work at your table, although I am not certain if I will ever have the opportunity to be at that table ;)
I am mostly going to be playing locally with my characters, but our group currently only plays once a month. I was looking into getting trying my luck at PbP's with some of my characters, and this was one of them. (Luckely he is the only character with an uncertainty about its rules ;))
I had been considering the fact of just adding the beastmorph and see if the GM I would play with would allow it to work on the cognatogen. It's not like I am planning on using my cognatogen all the time, more like a trump card for when we're in a difficult spot ("boss fight",some place where his heightened intellect might help, ...).
Just out of curiousity, do I have to decide to take the beastmorph archetype before I hit lvl 2 or before the actual changed ability comes up (lvl 3)? Seeing as he is lvl 1 and 0 xp, I still have some time to decide I suppose :)