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Also-- I pointed out the exact page and section where it clearly says that your manifester level is all classes that can manifest powers added together. I knew it was in there, it just took me a while to find. So again, page 66 in the description of overchannel it very clearly says exactly what my original assertion was.
You should also check manifester level in the glossory. It specifically states that they do not stack.
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It's funny how when you read Psionic rules it states Manifester levels don't stack on several occasions. But one little line in a feat that has the same text as it's 3.5 counterpart says differently. Obviously that one little feat is the Alpha and Omega Rule for Psionics. It couldn't possibly be that the feat is a hold-over error and incorrect.
Every one knows that when the world says 2+2=4 and then you have the one guy saying 2+2=House, the one guy is the correct one. He's obviously an untapped genius and we should disregard all the people before him to listen to his ideas.
[/sarcasm]
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The average AC for all Paizo CR 20 monsters is 37.
Now go look up some CR 20 monsters and check their AC. Then, once you do that, look at their spell-like abilities. Are there any AC buffs they can have? All right, now re-calculate their AC using their buffs. You will very often see a CR 20 creature capable of buffing themselves well over AC 40. Especially creatures that also have full spell-casting. For instance, the Pleroma Aeon casts spells as a 20th level Cleric, but without domains; that means the Pleroma can prepare new spells each day. So from day to day his spells might change, and during a combat day, he might come prepared to go all CoDzilla.
[Re-post] deleted the first one on accident. :(
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It's funny how when you read Psionic rules it states Manifester levels don't stack on several occasions. But one little line in a feat that has the same text as it's 3.5 counterpart says differently. Obviously that one little feat is the Alpha and Omega Rule for Psionics. It couldn't possibly be that the feat is a hold-over error and incorrect.
Every one knows that when the world says 2+2=4 and then you have the one guy saying 2+2=House, the one guy is the correct one. He's obviously an untapped genius and we should disregard all the people before him to listen to his ideas.
[/sarcasm]
It's a fair thing to point out regardless. Should it be what you take as the law of the land? Certainly not.
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All I can say is. Great?
Let's look at another CR 8 encounter. Scroll near the bottom of the post to the one that puts it all togetherDoesn't look so tough doesn't it?
But this fight can't be ended in two swings. At best it can be ended oh, in about 13 or fourteen swings. And they'll deal damage to your fighter, or better yet, his support crew.
Yay! ^.^
I feel special. J<(^_^)>|=
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Now go look up some CR 20 monsters and check their AC. Then, once you do that, look at their spell-like abilities. Are there any AC buffs they can have? All right, now re-calculate their AC using their buffs. You will very often see a CR 20 creature capable of buffing themselves well over AC 40. Especially creatures that also have full spell-casting.Fine, average unbuffed AC :P My post was mostly to counter the "AC 30 (fairly high for most things)" statement.
Yeah, Tels beat me to saying something about that too. A great example is the Pit Fiend who has a spell that grants it +4 to AC and saves at will. And the pit fiend is completely naked. Given the treasure value of a pit fiend you can also easily expect them to have some trinkets like ring of protection or amulet of natural armor, or even things like a circlet of charisma or similar things that adorn them.
But the real scary thing about pit fiends is they have a very horrible save or die effect. They can cast trap the soul without the need for a gemstone (presumably they create the gemstone out of your soul) as a SLA. This also makes pit fiends highly dangerous because you never know what sort of outsider they are going to unleash on you during the combat. If they have a trapped Efreeti, bam, they're all like "Ab'alzim, I choose you! Grant my desire and slay these fools and earn your freedom!", or "Behold the mightest being I have ever had the pleasure of enslaving. Qetlotetiel the Guardian of Saturn!" *poof, a Solar who biffed his save vs the pit fiend in an ancient battle*
PC #1: "Oh damn, so...the SOLAR is actually the highest CR creature in this encounter..."
PC #2: "I sure hope so..."
PC #3: "Uh, guys, we came here to kill Xzephotop the Soul Slaver...do you have any spells or abilities we can use to defeat a Solar?"
PC #4: "Um, I don't. I've got holy smite, dispel evil, magic circle against evil, holy word, and a bunch of that sort of stuff prepared."
PC #5: "Y'know what? Wizard, use your magics to hurl me towards that Solar, Cleric, buff me with death ward, Bard give me greater heroism as part of your inspire courage. I shall activate my boots of speed. Life-drinker HOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"
The average AC for all Paizo CR 20 monsters is 37.
Before they use any buffs they have to make it go higher.
This is not at Sane--> The rogue also has to deal with damage reduction, which can be done, but if the rogue does make sure to have a +5 enhancement bonus his DPR will be reduced. There is also miss chance, and other things rogues have to deal with in combat such as having a lower CMD and CMB. This matters when he is grappled. His AC is also lower which means if he closes in on a monster he will likely take a hit from the AoO, and if he tries to use acrobatics he will still likely take an AoO anyway. After that he eats a full round attack.
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the flanking rogue is doing +4d6 SA, not hitting as much, inferior Power Attack and not as much Str bonus.
This guy is doing 4-24 while Enlarged, +28 dmg ( I forgot the +2 from Enlarge). that's 42 points a swing without GPW.
Not really seeing that with a Rogue.
==Aelryinth
1. I called out a rogue with the same stats, and yes I have actually seen such a rogue (it was even an orc). so no inferior strength or power attack.
2. bonus while flanking means they have the same to hit. the rogue is just doing it every single round.
also, and I cannot stress this enough, this damage applies once per attack not attack roll, and it has a provoking full round action to prepare it again. honestly psionic shot is much more dangerous. it allows martials to nova, this is true, but braking the game, nah. this only abusable on one class, and one that's already being abused, the cavalier. Because the cavalier is the only class that that can mitigate that dangerous hit to action economy by having his mount move him to safety while regaining psionic focus.
And I called out Strength BONUS, not strength. He's a 2h Fighter, and gets 2x his Str, not 1.5, and -1/4 PA scaling, not 1/3.
Yes, I did read your counter. You need to read mine! ;)
And if the Rogue is flanking, why then the fighter gets to flank, too, and is again ahead on to hit. Strange how that works.
==Aelryinth
There's also the fact that concealment makes rogues cry in a corner.
There's also the fact that concealment makes rogues cry in a corner.
Really? Why? Shadow Strike is a feat in the APG that has the Rogue's name all over it. Total Concealment screws over everyone, not just Rogues.
Concealment is actually a Rogue's friend! If they have concealment, a Rogue can stealth and make sneak attacks without needing a flanking partner. So a Rogue with Shadow Strike could use Concealment to stealth (denying enemies the chance to strike her) while unleashing her sneak attacks on an enemy.
I once used a Rogue Shadowdancer in just that way to destroy my party. The best part? The Shadowdancer was a PC that happened to fall under the sway of the Enchantress BBEG!
There's also the fact that concealment makes rogues cry in a corner.Really? Why? Shadow Strike is a feat in the APG that has the Rogue's name all over it. Total Concealment screws over everyone, not just Rogues.
it's a feat tax rogues can't afford
at the low levels where they need it most, they have to delay a major combat boosting feat to ignore an irksome penalty.
it's a feat tax rogues can't afford
at the low levels where they need it most, they have to delay a major combat boosting feat to ignore an irksome penalty.
Which one?
There's also the fact that concealment makes rogues cry in a corner.Really? Why? Shadow Strike is a feat in the APG that has the Rogue's name all over it. Total Concealment screws over everyone, not just Rogues.it's a feat tax rogues can't afford
at the low levels where they need it most, they have to delay a major combat boosting feat to ignore an irksome penalty.
I disagree with the belief it's a feat tax. A feat tax is something that exists to make things work as they should. For instance, Weapon Finesse, a Rapier (at least as portrayed by Pathfinder) is inherently designed to used by agile, dexterous fighters. The whole art of fencing relies on agility, not strength. One of my close friends is a fencer, and attended a highschool in which the only sport was fencing and became capatain of his team. He told me fencing is about the fingers, you use your fingers to control the blade, not the wrist.
So we have a weapon that is designed, from the ground up, to be used by agile people, but they require a feat to use it as intended. That is a feat tax.
Concealment means it's someone that is hard to see. Typically, it's because of low-light conditions, heavy fog, or a blurring of the form. I don't know if you've ever rough-housed, let a lone fought, with someone in the dark, but I can assure you, it's difficult when all you can really make out is a dark, humanoid figure. Sure, you know where the heart is, where the lungs are, at least roughly, but one could thrust and miss the heart by only a few centimeters, and the person survives. Why? Because they can't be as accurate as normal (no sneak attack).
Someone who takes the time to train and practice to fight in less than stellar vision conditions is someone who has trained to overcome a real world condition.
Its a feat tax because they get screwed over big time by concealment and really need the feat if the campaign is going to use any concealment at all. I'm sorry, bad guy used blur. No precision damage for you Mr Rogue who's only combat support is sneak attack damage. Only rogues to my knowledge have precision damage built in and depend so much on it.
Rogues need moar luv.
There's also the fact that concealment makes rogues cry in a corner.Really? Why? Shadow Strike is a feat in the APG that has the Rogue's name all over it. Total Concealment screws over everyone, not just Rogues.it's a feat tax rogues can't afford
at the low levels where they need it most, they have to delay a major combat boosting feat to ignore an irksome penalty.
I disagree with the belief it's a feat tax. A feat tax is something that exists to make things work as they should. For instance, Weapon Finesse, a Rapier (at least as portrayed by Pathfinder) is inherently designed to used by agile, dexterous fighters. The whole art of fencing relies on agility, not strength. One of my close friends is a fencer, and attended a highschool in which the only sport was fencing and became capatain of his team. He told me fencing is about the fingers, you use your fingers to control the blade, not the wrist.
So we have a weapon that is designed, from the ground up, to be used by agile people, but they require a feat to use it as intended. That is a feat tax.
Concealment means it's someone that is hard to see. Typically, it's because of low-light conditions, heavy fog, or a blurring of the form. I don't know if you've ever rough-housed, let a lone fought, with someone in the dark, but I can assure you, it's difficult when all you can really make out is a dark, humanoid figure. Sure, you know where the heart is, where the lungs are, at least roughly, but one could thrust and miss the heart by only a few centimeters, and the person survives. Why? Because they can't be as accurate as normal (no sneak attack).
Someone who takes the time to train and practice to fight in less than stellar vision conditions is someone who has trained to overcome a real world condition.
the reason it's a feat tax to sneak attack a concealed foe, is because without it, it is impossible to represent the frightening circumstance of the rogue shanking your kidney or slitting your throat in a dark alley. something done by a lot of a real world gangsters throughout history, something that shouldn't require any real special training besides knowing anatomy. which is represented by sneak attack damage.
it's a feat tax on a class that could afford few feats.
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Uh, killing NPC classed characters isn't exactly difficult. A 1st level commoner gets 1d6+con in hp. Considering most people are unlikely to have a 12 Con or higher, the average hp is going to be 3 hp.
So a normal person could easily be killed by a single, non-masterwork, 10 strength dagger wielding commoner, let alone rogue.
Then when it comes to people surviving being stabbed by people, it's simple to say they either had more hp, the attacker rolled low on his damage, or the victim was higher level, or of a different class. For example, what if he was a 1st level warrior (like a guard or police officer). He averages 5 hp (maybe 6), and would take more than one stab to kill.
I'd suggest you read Calibrating your Expectations before trying to picture real-life scenarios using Pathfinder. It may have been written for 3rd edition, but it still very much so applies to Pathfinder. Seriously, it's a very good article and one that I know at least one person in this thread has already read and commented on (not naming any names).
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I do agree it's a feat tax. You basically must take it as a rogue if your GM uses any sorts of tactics. My tabletop group had a joke that the best way to ruin a 20th level rogue in combat was with 10 gold (to buy a smokestick :P).
Meanwhile, total concealment sucks but it affects most everyone. Rogues on the other hand are screwed by it more. I frequently take Blind Fight on my characters because being blinded sucks (and I mean being blinded by the condition or because you can't see your target or because you literally just can't see due to supernatural darkness or something), but the catch is that when other classes swing they deal with a miss % but get to keep their damage on a successful hit. The rogue has to deal with miss % AND loses their damage.
For example, an 9th level Ranger who spent 1 feat on Blind Fight might look like this:
+14/+9 (assuming 22 Str and a +2 weapon only with a -3 from PA) wielding his longsword in 2 hands. His damage looks like 1d8+20 or 24.5 per hit. In a fight with an Invisible Stalker he has a 50% miss chance and rolls twice when he would miss due to concealment.
Our 9th level Rogue might look like this:
+14/+9(assuming 22 Str and a +2 weapon with no penalties from PA) wielding his longsword in 2 hands. His damage looks like 1d8+11+5d6 or 33 per hit. However even with Blind-Fight and Shadow Strike he loses all of his sneak attack damage, dropping him to 15.5 damage.
If he's not a strength rogue it's worse and his damage becomes almost nothing, unless the GM allows agile weapons and he is wielding a +1 agile weapon instead (but the damage will still be lower since it's not multiplied by 1.5 when two-handing).
Feel free to replace "Invisible Stalker" with any enemy under the effects of greater invisibility, or in any situation where the rogue cannot see his enemy (such as attacking through a fog, smoke, illusionary wall, or when under the effects of a blindness spell).
At high levels it's not impossible to find enemies who randomly ignore your sneak attacks (such as through class features or fortification armors).
Uh, killing NPC classed characters isn't exactly difficult. A 1st level commoner gets 1d6+con in hp. Considering most people are unlikely to have a 12 Con or higher, the average hp is going to be 3 hp.
So a normal person could easily be killed by a single, non-masterwork, 10 strength dagger wielding commoner, let alone rogue.
Then when it comes to people surviving being stabbed by people, it's simple to say they either had more hp, the attacker rolled low on his damage, or the victim was higher level, or of a different class. For example, what if he was a 1st level warrior (like a guard or police officer). He averages 5 hp (maybe 6), and would take more than one stab to kill.
I'd suggest you read Calibrating your Expectations before trying to picture real-life scenarios using Pathfinder. It may have been written for 3rd edition, but it still very much so applies to Pathfinder. Seriously, it's a very good article and one that I know at least one person in this thread has already read and commented on (not naming any names).
commoners also get a favored class bonus if commoner is their favored class
so most commoners have 4 HP before constitution bonuses, and most tend to be either Farmers, Blacksmiths, Miners, Carpenters or similar labor heavy profession, which would hint at an increase to constitution and most NPCs, including commoners use the standard nonheroic array of
13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8
you average competent 1st level human Blacksmith, Dock Worker, Miner, Carpenter or Farmer has
Str 13
Dex 11
Con 14 (12+2)
Int 10
Wis 9
Cha 8
before feats and likely has the endurance feat and skill focus in their specialized craft or profession
giving the laborer 6 HP, outside of a dagger's damage range unless you have
a strength of 14+ and roll max damage, which hints at a human far stronger than most farmers
a character with the strength of an average farmer rolls average dagger damage with an average result on 1d6 of sneak attack damage
i don't see how these guys really fear dropping to one stroke of a dagger if they are guaranteed to stand after a max damage swing from a man without extremely exceptional strength
commoners also get a favored class bonus if commoner is their favored class
so most commoners have 4 HP before constitution bonuses, and most tend to be either Farmers, Blacksmiths, Miners, Carpenters or similar labor heavy profession, which would hint at an increase to constitution and most NPCs, including commoners use the standard nonheroic array of
13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8
you average competent 1st level human Blacksmith, Dock Worker, Miner, Carpenter or Farmer has
Str 13
Dex 11
Con 14 (12+2)
Int 10
Wis 9
Cha 8before feats and likely has the endurance feat and skill focus in their specialized craft or profession
giving the laborer 6 HP, outside of a dagger's damage range unless you have
a strength of 14+ and roll max damage, which hints at a human far stronger than most farmers
a character with the strength of an average...
Or they put their favored class bonus into skill points. Which is just as likely.
Or they put their human bonus in any 1 of the other 5 slots, like strength, certainly seems to me that would be important in their line of work. Or wisdom, don't want to be too foolish working with blazing fires and molten metal. Or charisma, since they have to sell the good they make. . .
+1
Seriously, a commoner specialized into toughening himself can take a dagger and live. I think I might of mentioned something along that point...
Then when it comes to people surviving being stabbed by people, it's simple to say they either had more hp, the attacker rolled low on his damage, or the victim was higher level, or of a different class. For example, what if he was a 1st level warrior (like a guard or police officer). He averages 5 hp (maybe 6), and would take more than one stab to kill.
Yep, I did.
Remember, an average blacksmith might not die to a single punch of a dagger, just as the average person doesn't either. More often than not, it wasn't the dagger that killed, it was the infection that did it.
For every character that rolled 6 on their dice, there is someone who rolled a 1. You might find a blacksmith who has 14 con and favored class into hp still only having 4 hp.
I don't know why it's so hard for you to believe that a rogue can kill someone without needing sneak attack, especially when we're talking about Non-Player Characters!
Rogue's don't need sneak attack to kill common people in a dark alleyway. Even in combat terms, the Rogue is going to get a surprise round stab, then another stab on the first round. Two stabs from a dagger could easily kill a common person, with or without the sneak attack.
This accurately reflects real life. Real life people aren't level 9 fighters, or level 4 bards, or level 12 wizards. They are commoners and experts, with a smattering of aristocrats and warriors. Most people can be killed by a single knife thrust, it just all depends on where you hit.
If I were to go get a knife and stab someone in the heart, I could kill them with a single blow. Does that mean I'm a rogue with sneak attack? No, it means I rolled high enough to kill them. Hell, I might have even got a critical.
Seriously, NPCs aren't hard to kill.
[Edit] Also, I think it's funny that you consider a 14 strength far outside of the range of most humans, yet you oh so casually decide to include a 14 Con. By your own logic, 14 con is "far out of the range of most human" and thereby, represents an anomaly, not normality.
This accurately reflects real life. Real life people aren't level 9 fighters, or level 4 bards, or level 12 wizards. They are commoners and experts, with a smattering of aristocrats and warriors. Most people can be killed by a single knife thrust, it just all depends on where you hit.
I deeply suspect most people aren't level 1 commoners either.
In fact the NPC codex has your average farmer being Expert 1/Commoner 1 suggesting that any npc with one level suggests a very young person just fresh into their profession which speaks more for a lack of experience rather than any physical nature.
Said farmer has ten hp. Easily kiled by a strong man wielding a sword, but takes a few good stabs or one solid sneak attack to effectively put down but at least two to kill.
But one shank with a dagger in the dark without the benefit of sneak attack damage? Unlikely.
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I agree. Killing normal people is pretty easy. Here's some statistics from my campaign that I was going to run this evening (but didn't due to circumstances) that are used for nonheroic NPCs.
Professional Magician CR 1/3 (135 XP)
N Medium Humanoid (human) adept 3; Senses Perception +3;
AC 10, touch 10, flat 10; Hp 10 (3d6); Fort +1, Ref +1, Will +3; Melee unarmed +0 (1d3-1) or club +0 (1d6-1); Ranged none or club +1 (1d6); Adept Spells Prepared (CL 3) 1st – comprehend languages, endure elements, cure light wounds, Orisons – detect magic, mending, read magic; Str 8, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 12; BAB +1, CMB +0, CMD 10; Feats Magical Aptitude, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Brew Potion OR Craft Wondrous Item; Skills Appraise +10, Craft (Alchemy) +8, Knowledge (Arcana) +6, Knowledge (Religion) +6, Knowledge (History) +6, Knowledge (Local) +6, Knowledge (Planes) +6, Spellcraft +14; SQ familiar (raven, +2 Perception, +3 Appraise, speaks a language); Equipment mwk tools (appraise), mwk tools (spellcraft), mwk tools (craft: alchemy), 110 gp worth of additional goods
Notes: These statistics are suitable for any professional magician who is otherwise nonheroic. This NPC makes a living through the creation of alchemical and magical items. Due to having no equipment for combat this NPC has a -1 CR adjustment, and an additional -1 CR adjustment for being unsuitable for combat.
Newlife Colonist CR ¼ (100 XP)
N Medium Humanoid (human) adept 2; Senses Perception +3;
AC 9, touch 9, flat 9; Hp 5 (2d6-2); Fort -1, Ref -1, Will +3; Melee none; Ranged none; Adept Spells Prepared (CL 1) 1st – cure light wounds, endure elements; Orisons – create water, mending, purify food and drink; Str 9, Dex 9, Con 9, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12; BAB +1, CMB +0, CMD 10; Feats 2 feats (usually Skill Focus and a +2/+2 skill feat); Skills 8 points (usually spent in Craft or Profession, Knowledge, and Spellcraft); SQ familiar (+2 Perception, familiar bonus); Equipment 65 gp worth of goods
Newlife colonists are trained in the arts of magic from a young age and are as accustomed to seeing and using magic as others are accustomed to using pots and jars. They undergo an extensive education and have a variety of useful skills. Their emphasis on mental development rather than physical labor has left most everlife colonists slightly weaker than their neighbors but slightly keener as well. Most keep familiars as pets and favor cats, hawks, lizards, ravens, vipers, and toads.
Notes: The above is a generic colonist. As a human a colonist gets a +2 to an ability score of choice. Typically Intelligence for Craftsmen or Experts (adding 2 more skill points), Wisdom for Doctors and Professionals, and Charisma for Diplomats and Performers. Due to having no equipment for combat this NPC has a -1 CR adjustment, and an additional -1 CR adjustment for being unsuitable for combat.
Generic Commoner CR 1/8 (50 XP)
N Medium humanoid (varies) commoner 1; Init +0; Senses Perception +4;
AC 10, touch 10, flat 10; Hp 3 (1d6), Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +0; Melee none; Ranged none; Str 11, Dex 11, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10; BAB +0, CMB +0, CMD 10; Feats 1; Skills 2 points (usually Perception plus Craft or Profession); Equipment 32.5 gp worth of mundane goods
The salt of the earth, commoners are the meekest examples of their species, with little more than a few skills to ply a trade. They have no skill in combat or adventure. They are normal everyday people.
Notes: The above is a generic commoner. Racial benefits have not been applied. The commoner has a base CR of ¼ for being a commoner and -2 ad-hoc adjustment (-1 for noncombatant, -1 for no combat equipment).
Generic Town Guard CR 1/3 (135 XP)
N Medium humanoid (varies) warrior 1; Init +1; Senses Perception +2;
AC 19, touch 11, flat 18 (+6 armor, +1 dex, +2 shield); Hp 6 (1d10+1); Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +0; Speed 20 ft. (30 ft.); Melee morning star +2 (1d8+1); Ranged shortbow +1 (1d6/x3); Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 8; BAB +1, CMB +2, CMD 12; Feats Alertness; Skills Intimidate +3, Perception +2, Sense Motive +2; CP -7; Equipment chainmail, morning star, heavy wooden shield, 95 gp in additional goods
These are generic guards found in most towns. They wear relatively inexpensive equipment and are keen to spotting most minor problems.Professional Magician CR 1/3 (135 XP)
N Medium Humanoid (human) adept 3; Senses Perception +3;
AC 10, touch 10, flat 10; Hp 10 (3d6); Fort +1, Ref +1, Will +3; Melee unarmed +0 (1d3-1) or club +0 (1d6-1); Ranged none or club +1 (1d6); Adept Spells Prepared (CL 3) 1st – comprehend languages, endure elements, cure light wounds, Orisons – detect magic, mending, read magic; Str 8, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 12; BAB +1, CMB +0, CMD 10; Feats Magical Aptitude, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Brew Potion OR Craft Wondrous Item; Skills Appraise +10, Craft (Alchemy) +8, Knowledge (Arcana) +6, Knowledge (Religion) +6, Knowledge (History) +6, Knowledge (Local) +6, Knowledge (Planes) +6, Spellcraft +14; SQ familiar (raven, +2 Perception, +3 Appraise, speaks a language); Equipment mwk tools (appraise), mwk tools (spellcraft), mwk tools (craft: alchemy), 110 gp worth of additional goods
Notes: These statistics are suitable for any professional magician who is otherwise nonheroic. This NPC makes a living through the creation of alchemical and magical items. Due to having no equipment for combat this NPC has a -1 CR adjustment, and an additional -1 CR adjustment for being unsuitable for combat.
Newlife Colonist CR ¼ (100 XP)
N Medium Humanoid (human) adept 2; Senses Perception +3;
AC 9, touch 9, flat 9; Hp 5 (2d6-2); Fort -1, Ref -1, Will +3; Melee none; Ranged none; Adept Spells Prepared (CL 1) 1st – cure light wounds, endure elements; Orisons – create water, mending, purify food and drink; Str 9, Dex 9, Con 9, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12; BAB +1, CMB +0, CMD 10; Feats 2 feats (usually Skill Focus and a +2/+2 skill feat); Skills 8 points (usually spent in Craft or Profession, Knowledge, and Spellcraft); SQ familiar (+2 Perception, familiar bonus); Equipment 65 gp worth of goods
Newlife colonists are trained in the arts of magic from a young age and are as accustomed to seeing and using magic as others are accustomed to using pots and jars. They undergo an extensive education and have a variety of useful skills. Their emphasis on mental development rather than physical labor has left most everlife colonists slightly weaker than their neighbors but slightly keener as well. Most keep familiars as pets and favor cats, hawks, lizards, ravens, vipers, and toads.
Notes: The above is a generic colonist. As a human a colonist gets a +2 to an ability score of choice. Typically Intelligence for Craftsmen or Experts (adding 2 more skill points), Wisdom for Doctors and Professionals, and Charisma for Diplomats and Performers. Due to having no equipment for combat this NPC has a -1 CR adjustment, and an additional -1 CR adjustment for being unsuitable for combat.
Generic Commoner CR 1/8 (50 XP)
N Medium humanoid (varies) commoner 1; Init +0; Senses Perception +4;
AC 10, touch 10, flat 10; Hp 3 (1d6), Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +0; Melee none; Ranged none; Str 11, Dex 11, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10; BAB +0, CMB +0, CMD 10; Feats 1; Skills 2 points (usually Perception plus Craft or Profession); Equipment 32.5 gp worth of mundane goods
The salt of the earth, commoners are the meekest examples of their species, with little more than a few skills to ply a trade. They have no skill in combat or adventure. They are normal everyday people.
Notes: The above is a generic commoner. Racial benefits have not been applied. The commoner has a base CR of ¼ for being a commoner and -2 ad-hoc adjustment (-1 for noncombatant, -1 for no combat equipment).
Generic Town Guard CR 1/3 (135 XP)
N Medium humanoid (varies) warrior 1; Init +1; Senses Perception +2;
AC 19, touch 11, flat 18 (+6 armor, +1 dex, +2 shield); Hp 6 (1d10+1); Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +0; Speed 20 ft. (30 ft.); Melee morning star +2 (1d8+1); Ranged shortbow +1 (1d6/x3); Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 8; BAB +1, CMB +2, CMD 12; Feats Alertness; Skills Intimidate +3, Perception +2, Sense Motive +2; CP -7; Equipment chainmail, morning star, heavy wooden shield, 95 gp in additional goods
These are generic guards found in most towns. They wear relatively inexpensive equipment and are keen to spotting most minor problems.
In fact the NPC codex has your average farmer being Expert 1/Commoner 1 suggesting that any npc with one level suggests a very young person just fresh into their profession which speaks more for a lack of experience rather than any physical nature.
Actually, the NPC codex also has a level 9 lawyer and a level 10 entertainer. It also has a level 2 sailor, so it may be skewed so that white collar jobs give more xp... [/paranoia] Apparently being an npc makes you better than you'd think.
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Because fighting orcs is for wussies. Real men are lawyers and Justin Beiber.
The NPC Codex, is, in my opinion, amongst the worst products Paizo has ever produced. You have barkeeps that kick the crap out of most PCs before 5th levels. You have bar wenches that could outfight some of the trained guards and mercenaries. Things like Lawyers that could slaughter a guy capable of mumbling a few words and producing an explosion of fire hot enough to melt the bag of gold the Lawyer was going to use to bribe the jury.
Yeah, not a very good book in my opinion.
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Because fighting orcs is for wussies. Real men are lawyers and Justin Beiber.
Well you have noted how a wizard can lay about him with a staff and put down loads of level 1 commoners. It sits rather nicely into this view. :)
it's not that i consider a 14 strength an anomaly, it's that i doubt your average Farmer, Dock Worker, Carpenter, Blacksmith, or Miner is not going to put their racial bonus in constitution, which helps them survive diseases more easily, work their jobs longer for more productivity, and so on
a 14 strength is also reasonable, but not as likely as a 14 constitution, because most strenuous labor is not about how strong you are, but how long you can adore.
the only 1st level published NPC classes are the most inexperienced of newbies
according to the game mastery guide,
your average barmaid has 7 hit points
your average farmer has 10 hit ponts
your average orphan has 9 hit points
your average beggar has 13 HP
your average miner has 16 HP
your average prostitute has 11 hit points
none of these career professionals would be dropped in 1 or 2 hits by a dagger. and some even take a d6 of sneak attack and laugh it off
to down a barmaid in one stab, you need 5 static damage, 14 strength and a d6 of sneak attack. a 20 strength, or 16 strength, and power attack with a bab of +1-+3
to down an orphan, you need 7 static damage, either 18 strength and a sneak attack die, a 14 strength, 1d6 sneak attack, and a bab of +1-+3 with power attack or 2d6 sneak attack
to down a farmer, as a minimum, you need 2d6 sneak attack and a 12 strength, 1d6 and a 20 strength, or 1d6, 16 strength, a +1-+3 bab, and power attack
to down a prostitute, you need 9 static damage, meaning 14 strength and 2d6 sneak attack, or sneak attack of 2d6, and power attack with a bab of +1-+3
to down a beggar, you need 11 Static damage, either 18 strength and 2d6 sneak attack, 3d6 sneak attack and a 13 strength, or 14 strength, 2d6 sneak attack, and power attack with a base attack bonus of +1-+3
to down a miner, you need 14 static damage, you need either 18 strength and 3d6 sneak attack, 14 strength, power attack with a base attack of +1-+3 and 3d6 sneak attack, 20 strength, 2d6 sneak attack and power attack with a base attack of +1-+3 or 16 strength, 2d6 sneak attack, and a base attack bonus of +4-+7
The NPC Codex, is, in my opinion, amongst the worst products Paizo has ever produced. You have barkeeps that kick the crap out of most PCs before 5th levels. You have bar wenches that could outfight some of the trained guards and mercenaries. Things like Lawyers that could slaughter a guy capable of mumbling a few words and producing an explosion of fire hot enough to melt the bag of gold the Lawyer was going to use to bribe the jury.
Yeah, not a very good book in my opinion.
Good or not it makes sense when viewed from the lense of the game.
Experience is a measure of how good you are at your job. The more experience you have the higher your skills, and feats. And if you consider every court case an encounter under the terms of the game then the lawyer gains experience.
However a side affect of this is that your BAB goes up, as does your hit points your saves etc. etc.
So it's easy to see the average footsoldier as just being a recruit more or less fresh from training. AP's seem to support this a bit since often when you run into trainees of one military organization or another they tend to have only one level of their respective npc or pc class.
It's not the faut of the book but a quirk of the system.
EDIT: As a side to this it's unlikely the lawyer would want to even fight the wizard in any case.
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Because fighting orcs is for wussies. Real men are lawyers and Justin Beiber.Well you have noted how a wizard can lay about him with a staff and put down loads of level 1 commoners. It sits rather nicely into this view. :)
Hm, I have noted? Was this recently? Don't get me wrong, a wizard totally can, but it's kind of relative. Even the CR 1/8 speedbump commoners I linked a while ago would not make a 1st level wizard with a stick feel very safe. I'm not even sure he'd feel very safe with some spells ready.
But my 20th+ level half-fiend tiefling wizard on the other hand could have easily laid waste to an army of 1 HD mooks without being hurt. But that's because she had tons of hit dice and high level gear. +10/+5 BAB, stat modifiers, lots of HP, plenty of AC, DR, resistances, and so forth make for a character that could spank around many a lowbie in melee with her stick with little fear of reprisal.
But I mean, at that point we're talking about something similar to a 10th level martial character in terms of combat skill.
Meanwhile, according to Paizo the average prostitute is a heroic-classed character with heroic stats, 2nd level, with tons and tons of great skills. I guess being a hooker is just for fun.
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Meanwhile, according to Paizo the average prostitute is a heroic-classed character with heroic stats, 2nd level, with tons and tons of great skills. I guess being a hooker is just for fun.
It was several months back but I remember it.
Well, I tend to think of that as jsut an example in a wide range of things.
Looking at the boon she grants it implies that she's an experienced prostitutue in a profession where she can be assaulted by a terrifying beggar at any time.
A madame at a brothel may be higher level still.
Now the heroic stats? Another quirk. Turns out a class feature of pc classes is the eilte array.
In either case I tend to look at the examples in the npc codex as jsut that; examples. Conveniences meant for ease of use. It's impossible to cover the full range of human experience.
it's not that i consider a 14 strength an anomaly, it's that i doubt your average Farmer, Dock Worker, Carpenter, Blacksmith, or Miner is not going to put their racial bonus in constitution, which helps them survive diseases more easily, work their jobs longer for more productivity, and so on
a 14 strength is also reasonable, but not as likely as a 14 constitution, because most strenuous labor is not about how strong you are, but how long you can adore.
the only 1st level published NPC classes are the most inexperienced of newbies
according to the game mastery guide,
your average barmaid has 7 hit points
your average farmer has 10 hit ponts
your average orphan has 9 hit points
your average beggar has 13 HP
your average miner has 16 HP
your average prostitute has 11 hit points
none of these career professionals would be dropped in 1 or 2 hits by a dagger. and some even take a d6 of sneak attack and laugh it off
to down a barmaid in one stab, you need 5 static damage, 14 strength and a d6 of sneak attack. a 20 strength, or 16 strength, and power attack with a bab of +1-+3
to down an orphan, you need 7 static damage, either 18 strength and a sneak attack die, a 14 strength, 1d6 sneak attack, and a bab of +1-+3 with power attack or 2d6 sneak attack
to down a farmer, as a minimum, you need 2d6 sneak attack and a 12 strength, 1d6 and a 20 strength, or 1d6, 16 strength, a +1-+3 bab, and power attack
to down a prostitute, you need 9 static damage, meaning 14 strength and 2d6 sneak attack, or sneak attack of 2d6, and power attack with a bab of +1-+3
to down a beggar, you need 11 Static damage, either 18 strength and 2d6 sneak attack, 3d6 sneak attack and a 13 strength, or 14 strength, 2d6 sneak attack, and power attack with a base attack bonus of +1-+3
to down a miner, you need 14 static damage, you need either 18 strength and 3d6 sneak attack, 14 strength, power attack with a base attack of +1-+3 and 3d6 sneak attack, 20 strength, 2d6 sneak attack and power attack with...
Wow. I'm sorry, this post is full of fail. You are condoning that crap!fest that is the NPC Codex for one. It doesn't strike you as wrong that the average beggar has the same HP as many PC Fighters? That a raging Barbarian might not be as resilient as your common miner? The average actor can take a veritable beating and keep on chugging. Not even your A-list actors either, I'm talking about the guy that has a resume full of bit-parts in 40 different shows.
Not only that, we have the total metagame statement that NPCs choose their own stats? Do you think every person just 'chooses' the most optimal physical scores for their job? That there isn't a dock worker that was forced into the job for the money, not because he wanted to be one? You seem to be of the mind that every dock worker, miner, black smith etc is going to have the exact same stats as the others!
If an NPC could actually choose his stats, don't you think many people would have chosen to be smarter? Or stronger? Or better with people?
No, people are born with the stats they have. A peasant doesn't get to choose his lot in life, he was born a peasant and will die a peasant. If he's a peasant that was born smarter, or wiser than others, it doesn't matter. If he wasn't born to be as strong as his brother, or as tough as his cousin, it doesn't matter. He's still a peasant.
People are not born already knowing where they are going to end up in their job. They're physical ability scores range far and wide. There are strong miners, and weak miners, ones that can swing all day, and ones that take frequent breaks. There are mines that whine about the work and try and get others to do their job for them, there are miners that make their real living selling stuff to other miners.
Miner is just as varied and different as anything else. Not ever miner has a 14 con, not every prostitute is going to be level 2. They are all different.
Not only that, the NPC Codex often flies in the face of what Paizo's designers and developers themselves claim. They often claim that NPCs fall in the 1-3 range, that they have an average score of 10 or 11. Yet you get a book full of NPCs that range well above their stated claims, and they use the heroic stat array instead of the basic array.
Like I said, the NPC Codex is probably the worst product Paizo ever published.
Not only that, the NPC Codex often flies in the face of what Paizo's designers and developers themselves claim. They often claim that NPCs fall in the 1-3 range, that they have an average score of 10 or 11. Yet you get a book full of NPCs that range well above their stated claims, and they use the heroic stat array instead of the basic array.
Actually they'll tell you most npc's fall within this range. And literally all the examples put up do fall in this range. More than that most people don't die in a single stab wound unless you manage to damage a vital organ. Even in those cases they won't drop immediately Most of the time they'll die of horrific infection or bleeding.
As to choose your own stats? Well, yes and no.
You do in fact get to choose your stats. You don't change what you're born with but you do get to choose your ability score increases, the items that enhance this.
And to add to this if and ever you take a class level suddenly all your stats get boosted up.
And believe it or not, you do get a choice on your profession as well. You don't have to stay a commoner, and presumably you don't stay a warrior your whole life. A commoner might join the army, become a guardsman, train under a craftsman, become a lwayer. None of these thigns means he suddenly gains a bunch of levels and can kick the crap out of you but they do mean he can improve himself either purposefully or through circumstance which is a reflection of reality. That he becomes tougher to kill despite all this is a quirk of the mechanics not a fault of the logic. You can just have him gain skills or feats or whatever without ganing hitpoints. Your call.
And really the essence of the heroic adventure is the thought of the common born homely person getting out into the world and exploring something grand. Conan started out his teen to early adult years as a slave. Elric a despondent and crippled emperor. Bilbo a predictable homebody. And even in those worlds they weren't unique. Extraordinary mena dn women existed everywhere with humble roots. Nothing says theres not thigns in between.
Ultimately you view the NPC codex as rubbish. I thought it too at first. But honestly it's just like any bestiary it provides an example to build on. The down and dirty prostitute doesn't represent the too young orphan girl taking up the profession to survive, or the hardened courtesan who has seen to the entertainment of many a man both rich and powerful. I see her for what she is, a hardened veteran of a toughened street life where at any moment an adventurer may be grabbing your arse or slitting your throat to prove how commoners can be shanked in one hit. I can adjust her as needs be or ignore her if want to. That's all their is to it.
Wow. I'm sorry, this post is full of fail. You are condoning that crap!fest that is the NPC Codex for one. It doesn't strike you as wrong that the average beggar has the same HP as many PC Fighters? That a raging Barbarian might not be as resilient as your common miner? The average actor can take a veritable beating and keep on chugging. Not even your A-list actors either, I'm talking about the guy that has a resume full of bit-parts in 40 different shows.
i don't like it either, but it is published material
Not only that, we have the total metagame statement that NPCs choose their own stats? Do you think every person just 'chooses' the most optimal physical scores for their job? That there isn't a dock worker that was forced into the job for the money, not because he wanted to be one? You seem to be of the mind that every dock worker, miner, black smith etc is going to have the exact same stats as the others!
If an NPC could actually choose his stats, don't you think many people would have chosen to be smarter? Or stronger? Or better with people?
No, people are born with the stats they have. A peasant doesn't get to choose his lot in life, he was born a peasant and will die a peasant. If he's a peasant that was born smarter, or wiser than others, it doesn't matter. If he wasn't born to be as strong as his brother, or as tough as his cousin, it doesn't matter. He's still a peasant.
People are not born already knowing where they are going to end up in their job. They're physical ability scores range far and wide. There are strong miners, and weak miners, ones that can swing all day, and ones that take frequent breaks. There are mines that whine about the work and try and get others to do their job for them, there are miners that make their real living selling stuff to other miners.
Miner is just as varied and different as anything else. Not ever miner has a 14 con, not every prostitute is going to be level 2. They are all different.
you may not be born knowing where you end up in life, but you can choose your path best on what you are best at, and if you aren't meant for that path initially, long periods of adaption to your new profession will give you the stats desired to function with your profession. so while a miner might not be born with the desired constitution, years of mining will adjust the miners constitution to something more suited to mining
either way, years of adaption before character creation, would logically modify a characters stats to benefit their profession. the stamina gained from mining would cause the miner to distribute one of their higher scores to constitution
Not only that, the NPC Codex often flies in the face of what Paizo's designers and developers themselves claim. They often claim that NPCs fall in the 1-3 range, that they have an average score of 10 or 11. Yet you get a book full of NPCs that range well above their stated claims, and they use the heroic stat array instead of the basic array.Like I said, the NPC Codex is probably the worst product Paizo ever published.
the NPC codex and Gamemastery guide are nothing more than glorified bestiaries with treasure rich humanoid foes. the idea is they are premade heroic NPCs designed for fighting PCs
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So. Them psionics sure are overpowered, aren't they.
(By all the other topics in this thread, that is.)
EDIT: Joke-posting aside...
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Psionics are far more balanced than any spellcasting class in either core nor the advanced player's guide.
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Out of all the spell-casting classes, I would say the Bard is probably the most balanced. A lot of that is because the Bard's spell list consists of mostly buffing and enchantment spells.
The two most destructive Bard builds I've ever seen, were both built by myself, and one of them cheated in two ways (32 point buy and a template), while the other one is completely rules legal (with one exception) and was only half bard, the other half being Dragon Disciple. Even then, the DD kind of cheated in that it has a major artifact (the exception). Both Bards were designed as possible ends to the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP.
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Agreeing with both Tels and Umbriere. Bards and Psionics are great.
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Out of all the spell-casting classes, I would say the Bard is probably the most balanced. A lot of that is because the Bard's spell list consists of mostly buffing and enchantment spells.
Just a fun little factoid.
The psychic warrior has a lot of parallels to the bard, but instead of buffing his friends, he buffs himself.
For those who don't believe me: average BAB, d8 HD, 6th level spells/powers, variety of class features, heavily buff-focused (self vs group).
I don't think that's just a coincidence when the psychic warrior was considered to be the most-balanced of the psionic classes in 3.5. :)