If, as you assert, all classes without spells have the same role, then all classes with spells have the same role as well (one role for casters, one role for noncasters)?
Because, I'm pretty confident that illusionists and evokers (who obviously have the same class) have different roles and those roles are different from a battle Oracle or a healing Cleric.
Again with being obtuse...
The different spell casters can and do fill different roles. Even in combat they can fill VERY different roles. Why? Because spells themselves are WILDLY diverse and can do just about anything. You can be anything from a blaster, a battlefield controller, a healer (rather sub-optimal choice but it is still a build), or a buff bot. Again, this is because spells CAN DO EVERYTHING.
The martial guys (i.e. the guys who do not cast spells)don't have that versatility. Yes there are different builds (the two-handed weapon guy, the two weapon figher, the sword and board, the grappler, ect.) but they all have the same aim, to do damage and/or act as a wall/punching bag. The reason for this is because the martials CAN'T do what the casters can. They CAN'T just create walls of dense fog to screw with everyone's vision. They CAN'T just put people to sleep on a whim (looking at you witch). They CAN'T reverse gravity. They CAN'T bring people back from the dead (for the most part. I know Monk of the healing hand can... but they are VERY bad at it). They CAN'T create walls of prismatic energy and force things to go where they want them to go. Everything a martial does has the same end goal, do HP damage or to keep something busy enough to give the caster the time to make the opponents into non-threats. How they get there is varied but the end goal is the same. With that in mind, you have to look at how the monk stacks up compared to everyone else at doing that. In the end, you will see they fall far behind at doing what a martial does. Ok, yes they are hard to hurt, but what good is that? The monster will just start ignoring you and go after the caster or glass cannon. If a martial can't hit and can't do much damage then he is near useless as a martial. The only thing a monk can do decently is combat manuevers (and fighters are still better than them at that (and you can argue barbarians are better than monks in very specific ones like sunder)). Out of combat, the monk still falls behind.
Out of combat the monk still falls behind. Why? Because the monk is the EPITOME of MAD. As it turns out, Int and Cha are the only two abilities the monk does not NEED. They cannot afford to have many points in Int. So yes, they have 4+int skill ranks (which is AVERAGE type), but they will often have less skills than most other classes due to having a low int.
Now that is not to say the monk CAN'T be good. The Zen Archer has obviously proven otherwise. Additionally, Lormyr has shown that monks CAN be powerful. But it requires the ability to cherry pick all the best equipment from every splatbook ever and having a level of system mastery beyond 99% of the people who play the game.
I would say there are four martial roles:
Melee damage
Ranged damage
Tanking - eg, surviving physical attacks
Combat manoeuvres
A martial character might be good at several of them, or only one or two. 'Moving around the battlefield' could also be considered a role, but generally a 'fly' spell does that better.
I would say there are four martial roles:
Melee damage
Ranged damage
Tanking - eg, surviving physical attacks
Combat manoeuvres
A martial character might be good at several of them, or only one or two. 'Moving around the battlefield' could also be considered a role, but generally a 'fly' spell does that better.
I'd say those do cover the four main martial roles, yeah. I would say it might be worth noting that there are a couple other secondary roles some martials can fill, such as intimidation-focused debuff builds, control builds that use reach weapon and dazing assault, Ranger skillmonkeying or Paladin backup healing. However, those tend to be bonuses added to the primary roles you mentioned.
My fighter hits things with a sword for damage. Having a debuff attached to the damage I inflict is nice, but it's really just a bonus. It's also worth noting that many of the debuffs a martial can inflict tie back in to tanking; leaving your enemy fightened, sickened, and staggered (let alone dazed) cuts into their ability to throw damage back at your character (or anyone else).
I would say there are four martial roles:
Melee damage
Ranged damage
Tanking - eg, surviving physical attacks
Combat manoeuvres
A martial character might be good at several of them, or only one or two. 'Moving around the battlefield' could also be considered a role, but generally a 'fly' spell does that better.
Well those are the build styles, but they are not necessarily "roles". They are different ways to aim at one of the "big roles" with the big roles being the Glass cannon (things like rogues and magi who can do large bursts of damage but are rather quishy), the BSF or "tank", the Battlefield controller, the buffer (insert bard here), and (if a party requires it due to GM challange/poorly optimized characters) the party healer.
Melee damage and ranged damage are more or less the same "role". They are focused on doing 1 thing, kill the guy as fast as possible by laying on as much hurt as possible. They just go about it a different way, with different strengths and weaknesses (flying vs not flying, wind wall or no wind wall, ect.). This would mostly fall into the role of the Glass Cannon (for archers and some melee guys) or the BSF/tank (mostly for melee). In this role the monk tends to lag behind VERY hard.
Tanking and Combat Manoeuvers are kind of related (in the way a square is related to a rectangle). The big goal of the "tank" is to make it unadvisable for the enemy to go after the squishies untill he has been answered. The combat manoeuvers are really effective at this (with things like a sword and board's bull rush or the grappler). The combat manoeuvers really help keep guys awya from the squishies (since there is no "aggro" mechanic). Granted, with certain exceptions, combat manoeuvers are not very good at doing damage (summoner and alchemist I am looking at you). This role is decent for the monk but certain classes (monk and alchemist -.-) can do is better.
Basically, he has been a solid #2 person at whatever was needed that was non-magical.
Actually for me that's a barbarian. He's #1 most of the time though. 40 foot movement speed, great durability, better saves and damage, and can do massive damage when needed(and probably will even when it isn't). Also, he can actually qualify for nice tings like critical focus or dreadful carnage. Those abilities that can inflict nice debuffs. Oh, and he's not MAD.
Was just looking through this thread and I have to ask: WHY can't monks use the Brawling armor property, again? It says it can only be on light armor. Fair enough, but where does it say Bracers of Armor aren't capable of having it? The bracers don't have a restriction on what enchants can go on them other than saying that the overall enhancement value can't exceed +8, you need a +1 on it before applying other types of enchants besides straight armor bonuses, and flat gold-piece value enchants can't be applied to them. The Brawling property states that it doesn't enhance natural attacks. Well, the Unarmed Strike feature for the monk specifically lists that their natural weapons are treated as both natural AND manufactured weapons for effects that enhance or improve EITHER of those. There seems to be a large gap in my understanding as to why in the world this couldn't be slapped on a monk's bracers for some helpful attack bonuses.
Why would I want a #2 if I had a #1? Especially if the #1 can do everything you can do, but better. He kills, he makes saves, and he doesn't die. He can 80 foot movement and can full attack on a charge. He might even have better skills and out of combat abilities.
I'm not certain how you can compare movement speeds and saves.
What is superstition line of totem powers? Starting with superstition? He also comes with fast movement and with one feat/rage power gets his barbarian level as a bonus to all acrobatics.
Was just looking through this thread and I have to ask: WHY can't monks use the Brawling armor property, again? It says it can only be on light armor. Fair enough, but where does it say Bracers of Armor aren't capable of having it?
The bracers of armor aren't light armor.
The bracers of armor aren't light armor.
So the wording doesn't mean that you simply can't put it on medium or heavy armor, you HAVE to put it on light armor only and nothing else? Wait...does that mean you can't put Keen on an AoMF and have it going with Snake Style?
The bracers of armor aren't light armor.So the wording doesn't mean that you simply can't put it on medium or heavy armor, you HAVE to put it on light armor only and nothing else? Wait...does that mean you can't put Keen on an AoMF and have it going with Snake Style?
I'm not particularly sure about keen myself. To my knowledge style feats change what damage types you do with your unarmed strikes so I would think they would qualify. I do know the bracers don't qualify as light armor for the purposes of brawling though. Its two different cases and how to handle it. An AoMF can have anything that can affect a weapon, but a bracer is like enchanting armor itself.
Can you clarify, please? I play Core, with some experience in Advanced.
Superstition is a rage power that super charges your saves. It leads to witch hunter, which gives you bonus damage against darn near everything in the game; Ghost Rager which lets you attack incorporeal opponents for full damage(ever get so angry you punch a ghost?); Eater of magic which gives you a second save; Spell Sunder which breaks ongoing spells like a sunder attempt, and a few more. All very nice for fighting off bad things and increasing your saves.
Beast totem line offers pounce at level 10. That's pretty awesome. lesser beast totem gives claws, beast totem gives a scaling natural armor, and greater beast totem gives pounce. With fast movement that means you can make an 80 foot charge and full attack someone, which very well may drop a lot of bad guys.
They also have access to Pathfinders version of Rombilar's Gambit and Shock Trooper's Headless Charge. Which were for some reason made into rage powers... for some reason. Come and Get Me is a very nice rage power to have, especially when you have an ability that shuts down people by hitting them, like dazing assault.
So the wording doesn't mean that you simply can't put it on medium or heavy armor, you HAVE to put it on light armor only and nothing else?Correct.
Well, that's an absurd ruling. It says, right in the description, "Bracers of armor surround the wearer with an invisible but tangible field of force, granting him an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor." The logic there just does not track at all. Just say, "Oh, we just meant that you can't put it on medium or heavy armor", Otherwise, this enchant is just thumbing its nose at those who need it the most.
Superstition is a rage power that super charges your saves.forces you to make saves against beneficial spells
not impressed
What's your point? The value of having 2+1/4 level in saves is pretty high and arguably better. You can ever push it further with the right favored class bonus. Better of raging than dead imo. Besides, you usually don't get that many buffs once combat starts and casters tend to have high initiative to buff you anyway.
Well, that's an absurd ruling. It says, right in the description, "Bracers of armor surround the wearer with an invisible but tangible field of force, granting him an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor." The logic there just does not track at all. Just say, "Oh, we just meant that you can't put it on medium or heavy armor", Otherwise, this enchant is just thumbing its nose at those who need it the most.So the wording doesn't mean that you simply can't put it on medium or heavy armor, you HAVE to put it on light armor only and nothing else?Correct.
I think there are plenty of people who think the same way.
Its nice, but its a garden shed compared to the monk's iron bunker of defenses
What garden shed are we talking about and what bunker are you referring to? Because the barbarian ends up with better base saves and can make some of them twice, and the monk... does not. A barbarian can also use crane wing, dazing assault, get half his level to DR, and stalwart all at once. The monk... does what exactly that the barbarian can't?
Barb's tend to rage all day. The number of rounds you can rage per day quickly hits a point where you can rage every round of every encounter your in.
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The logic there just does not track at all.
Actually, it absolutely does track.
It can only be applied to light armor. Bracers of armor are not light armor. They only grant an armor bonus as if he were wearing armor. That doesn't mean he is actually wearing light armor.
Paizo doesn't think the monk needs it. The rest of us disagree.
Its nice, but its a garden shed compared to the monk's iron bunker of defensesWhat garden shed are we talking about and what bunker are you referring to? Because the barbarian ends up with better base saves and can make some of them twice, and the monk... does not. A barbarian can also use crane wing, dazing assault, get half his level to DR, and stalwart all at once. The monk... does what exactly that the barbarian can't?
Barbarians have better base saves? Not following on that one.
Justin was probably referring to monks eventually being immune to disease and poison, which is nice but not exactly overpowered. Also, them getting Wisdom to AC/CMD, but then barbarians can actually wear real armor. Evasion is nice, but then barbarians get the Uncanny Dodge features when monks don't, so it breaks even. I'd say Spell Resistance, too, but that's a double-edged sword which is almost as likely to hinder the monk with his allies as it is to protect him from his enemies. Still Mind is very selective, Wholeness of Body sucks, and Perfect Self comes way too late in the game to be of any real note.So, no, not an iron bunker. Their saves do rock, though.
Barbarians have better base saves? Not following on that one.
Post superstition. The +7 you get overtime from superstitious means you total more than the monk on your weak saves and even more on your strong one. Its a morale bonus too, so it benefits from courageous weapons.
Not going to argue against monks having good saves though.
Which makes him absolutely vicious against his own party once he's charmed (which, despite clear mind and the +2 to will saves, will happen because will is a poor save for him and Wis is not a priority).
Poor will save? I don't have that on my barbarians. Superstition, that thing I keep talking about.
You are likely not raging at the start of an encounter nor while surprised. So, no, I don't believe it is true thatBarb's tend to rage all day.
I think your splitting hairs now...
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For the sake of the discussion, assuming a 10th level Barb with Superstition, your Will save is +7 +whatever you Wis is (probably zero). That's pretty bad.
Perception is Wis-based and also a Barbarian class skill. Don't forget cloaks of resistance and other save boosters. Heaven forbid it's a dwarven barbarian too.
Wisdom doesn't just help the Monk's AC. It helps a lot of Monk stuff. Evasion is nicer than Uncanny Dodge in any character with good mobility. All high saves and the fact that Dex and Wis are priority attributes is great.
No, it's pretty much their primary stat. I was referring JUST to the immediately defense-related side of Wisdom for a monk, though.
Evasion seems nicer than Uncanny Dodge...right up until the point you're caught flat-footed in an ambush, or fighting an invisible opponent, or stunned, or in any way denied your Dex to AC. Uncanny Dodge takes care of that, plus the improved version negates almost 100% of instances with people trying to flank you. Uncanny Dodge is really, REALLY good. Considering a monk's role is supposedly to jump into the middle of a group of enemies, stun vulnerable targets, and rely on their defenses to keep them safe, uncanny dodge would suit them much better than negating some of the damage from Evocation spells.
Oddly enough, when Rogues try to be Monks, Rogues fail.
Oddly enough, during an old 3e game, I had a rogue with improved unarmed strike who knocked another PC monk unconscious during their initial meeting. The rogue or "ninja" as she was ended up getting stopped by the monk in a dark room at night. The rogue could see in the dark but had concealment, so she basically sneak-attacked the rogue to pieces with her unarmed strikes before catching his leg and rolling over him before heading out the door leaving the unconscious monk behind.
Later, she was actually more resilient in combat because armor is a good thing, and sneak attack is scales faster than unarmed damage. Part of her shtick was that she was dangerous even without weapons, but she had a lot of randomly cool weapons she carried around (like blowguns) that were really nice.
Today in Pathfinder she would mostly be better than she used to be since sneak attack works against most everything and damage reduction means a lot less (Improved Unarmed strike suffered big when DR 20-30 was pretty common, but today 1d3+6+5d6 is pretty solid vs DR 5-15).
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The best use for monks I have found so far is the following
1.)Rogue's Flanking Partner:You can move faster than the rogue, and the rogue has a nice (and in a couple of corner-cases, ridiculously high) damage bonus when he flanks, so run into combat, tumble to the foes other side, fight defensively, and let the rogue do damage with you.
2.)Caster Killer:Rush in and Stun the caster before he can lay out buffs to the other foes, or debuffs to the party. Then grapple it to hold it in place so the fighter/barb can charge it and do their stupid-high damage.
The sad thing is, a fighter/barb can do this almost as good (or in some builds, better) than the monk.
As to the brawling armor thing, it will become slightly better if this gets an official ruling in the monk's favor.
THAT'S where I'm going with this. Other character types may have the utility of the monk. From what I've seen, that involves them playing somewhat out of their role.
Pounce charging and tanking are the barbarian role. That's not actually out of role for them to be darting around the battlefield smashing things.
Poor will save? I don't have that on my barbarians. Superstition, that thing I keep talking about.For the sake of the discussion, assuming a 10th level Barb with Superstition, your Will save is +7 +whatever you Wis is (probably zero). That's pretty bad.
The monk is also 7. That must be pretty bad too.
Honestly, the biggest thing I'd change about the monk is rework flurry of blows and change weapon proficiencies.
I'd change flurry of blows to have simpler rules and, at later levels, allow the monk to move while flurrying so the class can have the unique quality of being a mobile full-attacker.
I'd change his proficiencies so a player can choose X amount of monk weapons. A static list prevents the monk from benefiting when new weapons are introduced. It's ridiculous that the Asian-inspired class doesn't benefit from the introduction of Asian weapons.
Otherwise, I kind of like the monk as is.
For the sake of the discussion, assuming a 10th level Barb with Superstition, your Will save is +7 +whatever you Wis is (probably zero). That's pretty bad.
Poor will save? I don't have that on my barbarians. Superstition, that thing I keep talking about.
Human barbarians have
+3 class+2 rage
+4 superstition
+3 favored class
For a total of +12, not counting wisdom, feats and cloak of protection.
A 10th level monk with 20 in wisdom has +12 too (plus still mind vs enchantment, and feats and cloak of protection). However, vs a Fort save, the Barbarian has +16 plus Con Bonus, while the Monk has +7 plus CON, assuming feats and cloak are the same for both.
First off, I've said this a number of times, and I'll stress it again - I'm not saying other people can't do the same thing as well as or better, but that they are moving outside of their roles to do so.
Quick question - how many people in this thread have played Monks? There is a flavor to monks which, while situational, really feels unique. I think it's a "you have to play it" kind of thing. I will cite that I play a high point campaign with people that are fairly un-optimizers, so perhaps that is why my mileage has varied.
It's funny... it's not atypical for me to say "Okay, I'm flanked... how tall is that guy again? Okay, I'm going to jump over him to that clear square behind him. Good luck hitting that attack of opportunity".
Can a barbarian do that? Sure. But to pull off the investment needed I'd really wonder what that barbarian was doing and why.
The barbarian just gets Improved Uncanny Dodge, so he can't be flanked in the first place.
I think there is some good flavor in the monk class, and they can sort of pretend that they have a full BAB when they flurry or perform a maneuver. My experience, however, is that a monk can look better on paper than it actually is in practice.
Monster CMDs tend to swing wildly. At high level, they simply outpace most characters and the monk in particular because he has very little item support. A fighter tripping with a weapon gets his enhancement bonus, his weapon training, his fighter feats and his maneuver feats, and he has more feats to begin with... he also usually has a higher strength because a fighter doesn't suffer from MAD. I have seen fighters and barbs keep up with CMDs, but never a monk.
Monks, ultimately, suffer from a complete lack of focus. They aren't really good at anything, and MAD just further compounds this. The only silver lining here is that they have access to some of the better Archtypes and everyone can take Qingong.... but even if they use an archtype to specialize, they can't keep up with a true martial class.
First off, I've said this a number of times, and I'll stress it again - I'm not saying other people can't do the same thing as well as or better, but that they are moving outside of their roles to do so.
The fact they can do better and without trying very hard is exactly why there are complaints about the monk.
And yes, I can do that with a barbarian. If I'm level 12 I may want them to attack me. Hmm... Would 2 barbarians going at it look like Disgaea?
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I have seen fighters and barbs keep up with CMDs, but never a monk.
Not sure what monk you are playing, but my monks have less than no problem with CMD now, CMB is a bit of a problem, but not CMD. Monks are best as the following
Caster Killer:Super fast (gets to caster first), avoids AoO's (Casters are known for many things, CMD isn't one of them), Stunning Fist (Casters also aren't known for fort saves *shut up, scarred witch doctor*). They are pretty good at it. Of course, barbs and fighters, when trying, can do roughly the same (monk is better IMO, but still).
Champions of Irori:Infinite Smite Evil+Uber-Saves+Super Defense, its really nice.
Still, out of the things monks are good at, damage isn't one of them. I'm pretty sure that monks were invented purely to be what you play when you roll all 16-18's in stats before race/levels. Now, if you are one of the archetype (sohei/zen archer/tetori), you can do damage, but generally, don't use a monk as your primary damage dealer
I have seen fighters and barbs keep up with CMDs, but never a monk.Not sure what monk you are playing, but my monks have less than no problem with CMD now, CMB is a bit of a problem, but not CMD. Monks are best as the following
Caster Killer:Super fast (gets to caster first), avoids AoO's (Casters are known for many things, CMD isn't one of them), Stunning Fist (Casters also aren't known for fort saves *shut up, scarred witch doctor*). They are pretty good at it. Of course, barbs and fighters, when trying, can do roughly the same (monk is better IMO, but still).
Champions of Irori:Infinite Smite Evil+Uber-Saves+Super Defense, its really nice.
Still, out of the things monks are good at, damage isn't one of them. I'm pretty sure that monks were invented purely to be what you play when you roll all 16-18's in stats before race/levels. Now, if you are one of the archetype (sohei/zen archer/tetori), you can do damage, but generally, don't use a monk as your primary damage dealer
When I say CMD I mean keeping their CMB up there with monster CMDs. Monks do tend to have good CMDs... but as a class that seems pushed toward maneuvers, their CMB is hard to stack up.
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but even if they use an archtype to specialize, they can't keep up with a true martial class.
Zen Archer. Those guys are game-breakers. Sohei can specialize on weapons and get on-par attacks with naginata flurry (with a bunch of attacks and a good crit, and with the power attack bonuses, useful crit as well, and they get weapon training). I see your point about monk CMB<monster CMD, but just 1 question a
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One of the biggest issues with the monk is that it is a highly complex class whose flavor does not always match its mechanics.
I never suggest it for new players.
There's a common belief that monks should fill the fighter 'role' (whatever that is). Stick a sword in a Wizard's hands and its going to look pretty weak too.
The monk's only way to influence a combat is to fight, and he's not intrinsically very good at it. If he's not meant to be fighting, what IS he meant to be doing?
I keep seeing this statement, and I keep never seeing any answer to the obvious question of, if the monk isn't meant to fight, what's he meant to do?
Oddly enough, when Rogues try to be Monks, Rogues fail.
But when rogues try to be rogues they succeed. Monks can fail to even be monks (by the description of their role in the CRB).
However... when the sneaky types go to do sneaky things, the monk has been there to protect them.
When battlefield placement has been a must the monk has been the one to get to wherever they are needed fairly easily and do things.
Whenever saves are needed the monk is the one that no one worries about.
Basically, he has been a solid #2 person at whatever was needed that was non-magical.
In other words, he's the best sidekick in the game.
Problem is when you want to be a monk that is more than a sidekick...
Wait...does that mean you can't put Keen on an AoMF and have it going with Snake Style?
You can, but the reason you do not do that is because you have a +5 cap on the AoMF and Improved Critical as a free feat at 10th level anyway. You need every drop of enhancement you can get out of the AoMF because you have nothing else.
Superstition is a rage power that super charges your saves.forces you to make saves against beneficial spells
The monk's SR has similar disadvantages...
Basically, if you want a fast-moving mobile warrior with good defences, the barbarian does it way better than the monk. His defences are not AS good, but as I have previously demonstrated, when you deal out so much damage your enemies barely get a hot back at you, they do not need to be.
If you want the best saves and immunities, though, the paladin is it far more so than the monk.
Yes, but a Barb has to prioritize Str and Con.
Perception is Wis-based and also a Barbarian class skill.
And a monk has to prioritise strength, con, dex, and wis. He has d8 hit dice to the barb's d12. He can't dish out as much damage, so whatever he is fighting will get more attempts on him than on the barbarian. The barbarian doesn't have to be as good at saves as the monk to have a better chance of making one save to the monk making five in a row.
One of the biggest issues with the monk is that it is a highly complex class whose flavor does not always match its mechanics.
I never suggest it for new players.
Exactly so. May I recomend my monk amendments? They are play-tested and don't make the monk brokenly strong, while improving them enough to stay on the same playing-field as the real martial classes.
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Guys, the monk's best role is Buff and Support as no other buffer can give 3 standard actions to a fighter.
Guys, the monk's best role is Buff and Support as no other buffer can give 3 standard actions to a fighter.
Doesn't help much if the monk is the only martial in a party of casters. none of whom want to buff...
Edit: Now I see it, yes, that is doable, as long as you have a +5 Con mod to drink that much and not be blitzed. However, you can only do it once for one ki, and then it costs you 6 ki a time. It's nice, but it's not a game-breaker as you can hardly use it every encounter.
The monk's SR has similar disadvantages...Superstition is a rage power that super charges your saves.forces you to make saves against beneficial spells
And dropping out of rage is a free action, while lowering/raising SR is a standard.
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And dropping out of rage is a free action, while lowering/raising SR is a standard.Yes, it is a free action, that gives you a -2 penalty to str&dex, and prevents you from raging fora while. It is rather hard to do and still stay relevent in combat until you get a.)The rage power that lets you rage while fatigued, which is a 1 time thing, and you are burning it instead of getting beast totem, superstition, CAGM, etc. b.)Moment of clarity, same trouble as the previous, or c.)Start Rage Cycling. Now, I will admit that it is better than SR, but not "just" because it is a free action to drop.
Doesn't help much if the monk is the only martial in a party of casters. none of whom want to buff...
Edit: Now I see it, yes, that is doable, as long as you have a +5 Con mod to drink that much and not be blitzed. However, you can only do it once for one ki, and then it costs you 6 ki a time. It's nice, but it's not a game-breaker as you can hardly use it every encounter.
Well, yeah, but it makes a cooler buff/support character than your average buff bard or buff wizard IMO. And instead of the normal martial monk whose only attack buff is flurry, you can add a scaling +1 to attack and damage, that improved your attack more, once you get courageous.