Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I had a first in 83 tables today.
A player in PFS wanted to steal from the merchant.
I don't know how to handle this, so I rejected it with "don't be a jerk".
How should I have handled this? Allow it and see if they go to jail?
If they go to jail are they effectively dead?
Puzzled DM.
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Can't really say what is the good way to handle it, but I would enable the PC to do so if he wishes. I would treat this gold gain as a bonus gold in scenario which wouldn't pass the maximum obtainable gold in scenario (as long as it's done once and it doesn't become common practice to be done for every scenario).
A few things worth of notice to the PC might be told however; If the PC is captured or arrested by the guards, it would damage his reputation in pathfinder carrier. Such felonies would also including sitting in a jail cell or cashing out the releasing fee if PC wishes to get back on his mission which would, all in all, provide a hefty distraction in their scenario especially if there is a time limit.
After you tell him the risks, most players will give up on this.
There are certain profanities that grant the player the feeling of gaining additional gold via Sleight of Hand checks in form of Day Job (Pathfinder Society Field Guide) or he can simply do Proffesion (pickpocket) checks for Day Job.
Hope this helps,
Adam
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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I guess for me it'd depend on what he was trying to steal. If he was hoping to pick his pocket, I'd roll it out and have him get a copper or two. If it was an item the merchant was selling, I'd again roll it out and if he got it, treat it as any other treasure found, but no increase in max gold.
If he was caught, I'd have the merchant call for the guards, but give the pc a chance to (barely) get away. Might have his superiors at the end of the scenario give him a talking to about tarnishing his faction/PFS's reputation.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Depending on the situation, stealing is either evil, chaotic, or both.
For example, you need item X to stop the town guard from turning into monsters at midnight. The merchant won't sell it to you, at least at a price you can afford. You steal the item, perhaps with the intent of returning it after you are done.
Fine, chaotic, but fine.
Counter Example: During the course of the adventure the party encounters a poor family. They have stumbled over the object the party needs. It is pure gold. They offer to sell it to the party, but only if the party will pay more than the local fence, as they have not eaten in several days and they desperately need the money. The rogue says "lets talk about this out side, guys." And then while everyone is distracted sneaks back inside, steals it, comes back out, and say "never mind, I got tired of you arguing and bought it, lets go."
Pretty evil.
As a one time thing, the first isn't going to get you kicked out. The later will probably mean people keep a close eye on you in future.
My big concern about the stealing from the merchant is that if he is just doing it gratuitously, and gets caught, he is effectively adding an extra encounter to the game. I think I might give the rest of the party the choice: Do you want to help him out? Or do you want to leave him to clean up the mess he made. In the latter case, he flees, chased by the guards, and if we have time we will play that out after the game. In the mean time the rest of the party goes on with the scenario. Or he can surrender, pay a fine (double the value of whatever he took) and continue with the party.
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I've seen this at least a few times, both as a player and GM. I don't want to turn this into a "video game vs. tabletop" thing, but there are players coming into Pathfinder from a video game experience where there is little to no consequence from pickpocketing NPCs. And there are also players who see the Rogue class as a mandate to grab everything that isn't nailed down.
I think the best way to handle it is to:
1) point out that PCs can't get more gold than the max allowed by the scenario plus any day jobs
2) ask the table if they feel like role-playing an arrest, trial, and jail-time
...and proceed from there.
Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD
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For example, you need item X to stop the town guard from turning into monsters at midnight. The merchant won't sell it to you, at least at a price you can afford. You steal the item, perhaps with the intent of returning it after you are done.
Fine, chaotic, but fine.
This is understandable, the idea is for a higher purpose etc etc
Counter Example: During the course of the adventure the party encounters a poor family. They have stumbled over the object the party needs. It is pure gold. They offer to sell it to the party, but only if the party will pay more than the local fence, as they have not eaten in several days and they desperately need the money. The rogue says "lets talk about this out side, guys." And then while everyone is distracted sneaks back inside, steals it, comes back out, and say "never mind, I got tired of you arguing and bought it, lets go."
Pretty evil.
My issue is that this would still be considered chaotic, maybe distasteful and not socially acceptable, however if the family is really that poor, they would accept money offered, and maybe food etc. the withholding of the item, for a higher price than the fence when the item is vital for the mission, is by itself not a moral act.
I think the problem is people are getting "criminal" and Moral and Evil all confused.
A criminal act is not necessarily a immoral or Evil act.
From reading the CRB and PFS Guide the only evil deeds I could find mentioned
Murder of an Innocent
Desecration of a Corpse
Torture
Wanton Destruction
Now when I play my new rogue (old one died, level drain at level 1 lol, something about a wraith not liking how I was able to get all the required items in his tomb while disabling the traps) he is playing the borderline Criminal, he is not evil by my reckoning, but defiantly morally neutral and would steal from a poor family if the matter required it, he might, if the matter warranted it leave fair compensation, provided of course there was a valid reason to why the NPC was holding out and they were not being by my reckoning evil or unreasonable in withholding the item.
my argument is "there are times when you have to do the wrong thing to do what is right".
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This is one of those examples of a player running into the "invisible walls" that circumscribe PFS adventures. In PFS, unlike other campaigns or even one shots, I feel that there is more of a "metagame social contract",if you will, that players know that there are bounds outside of which is a complete derail of the scenario and can't happen since DMs are tightly bound to what is on the page. If we are getting all "video game v. tabletop", PFS absolutely more video game than real tabletop campaign.
I would just inform the player of this and hope that they understand.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Like so many who started playing D&D in the 80s, with the popularity of The Hobbit as impetus, a halfling thief was my first character. I think, during all the times I have been considered "actively playing" RPGs, I have always had a halfling thief (pardon me...rogue, these days, right?). I still do, in fact.
So, I have a soft spot for players of true thieves. As long as they aren't outright thugs in my games, they're going to get away with it (dice willing, of course). But, yeah, you can't steal your way to more money than your chronicle says you get. Doesn't mean I can't put a note on that chronicle saying you've added something to your growing collection of other peoples' trinkets, however.
But if the player actually has the vanity where they can steal for their day job, well, all gloves are off. You'll get five minutes of face time to do your day job, and I hope you have fun with it, 'cuz I will. This, by the way, goes for anyone who wants to do their day job "in game." I've had dancers make money at parties, guides make money during travel between towns, and Calistrians make money...well, I'll leave that unsaid.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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you can't steal your way to more money than your chronicle says you get.What about if they wanted to steal in order to sell the proceeds to then buy a potion of cure light wounds that could be used.
Hm. That's tricky and speaks more to the social contract Saint Caleth mentioned.
Perhaps if they had made enough money from prior encounters I would play along with this, essentially shifting rewards around inside the game, but that chronicle is still binding. You can't steal your way to a freebie either.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Hamburg
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But if the player actually has the vanity where they can steal for their day job, well, all gloves are off. You'll get five minutes of face time to do your day job, and I hope you have fun with it, 'cuz I will. This, by the way, goes for anyone who wants to do their day job "in game." I've had dancers make money at parties, guides make money during travel between towns, and Calistrians make money...well, I'll leave that unsaid.
That's how I would handle it, too. If the player either uses Profession (pickpocket) or has the "Thieves' Guild" vanity and uses Sleight of Hand, I would inform him that he can steal at that moment, but it will count as his day job roll, so he won't get an additional day job roll at the end of the scenario.
If he neither has the "Thieves' Guild" vanity nor ranks in Profession (pickpocket) (or any other profession that could be applied to this situation), I would inform him that he may try to steal, opposed by Perception checks, and that he won't get any extra money out of this, but gains the risk of being caught, having to bribe his way out.If, on the other hand, he is trying to steal an item that is important for the plot, then I'd count that as a creative solution. I'd still inform him that there's the risk of being caught.
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I'm in agreement with most of the responses here. I'd typically allow it as long as it wasn't from a fellow party member or didn't endanger the group itself, since that is against the spirit of PFS. But if the rogue wanted to pop in to a magic shop, attempt to steal an item, and then make off with it I'd allow them the use of that item for the session. It would of course be donated to the Pathfinder Society at the end of the game. Hmm...the possibilities.
You shouldn't just summarily write off a skill a player has invested in because it is inconvenient. But, like the others, I'd warn the player that any negative outcomes to the event would be handled without the help of the group and could lead to fines, imprisonment, etc. being reported and calculated on the chronicle sheet.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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You shouldn't just summarily write off a skill a player has invested in because it is inconvenient.
I was concerned about the player getting "free consumables" that can be used without consequences.
But I think the best way I should have handled it was to allow them to get the item, then reduce their gold on their sheet by the amount.
I blocked it solely because it seemed to me to be a loophole and felt like cheating gold.
But maybe I rushed to judgement?
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I would say if he wants to do it for flavor .. roll it out, but there isnt an added bonus. If he wants to do it to try and get an added bonus -- he faces the threat of getting caught and jailed which would technically render the pc unplayable in my book.
He'd get one "are you sure" question from me as a gm and if he still wants to and the table doesn't stop him, it's on.
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Depending on how the scenario is written, you could say that if they fail, they go to jail and have to pay a fee to get out, with the fee being basically the gold they would have gotten from that chunk of the scenario. Like, if the scenario had "award players 500 gold for talking to this merchant successfully" they would lose out on that gold, but just that player.
If they succeded? I don't know. It's a potentially complicated situation. If they're just doing it to do it? Potentially evil act. If they're doing it to save a party member, like a potion of clw or remoe diease? Deduct it from the chronicle like they purchased and used it. If they're doing it to shortcut a scenario by stealing a quest item(I can think of at least one where this might come up)... i'd say seriously consider rewarding outside the box thinking.
This situation makes me feel more like a judge than a gm.
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I had this come up when running a scenario during a con. Certain items may or may not have been needed to complete the scenario.
The Midnight Mauler
The players needed some wolfsbane and were told that it was selling in town for 800gp a dose (the scenario outright says this). Normal selling price for Wolfsbane is 500gp a dose.
The Wolfsbane is not required to complete the scenario, but without it "the good ending" is not possible. This is unknown to the players of course.
There is an encounter in the scenario designed to let them get said items for free, however, they decided they wanted to steal some from a merchant.
I decided to let them try theft. They tracked down a merchant who had said item in stock. I put one in a safe behind the counter. Given the circumstances in town it is unlikely he would have had it in the open, nor would he have had more than one.
The PCs would need a distraction to get behind the counter and either a disable device check to open the safe, or sleight of hand to steal the key from the merchant. Once they got a look at this layout, they decided it wasn't worth the risk and moved on. If they had tried and succeeded, I would have given them an extra item to use by the end of the scenario (which in all likelihood requires multiple uses of said item). If they had failed, well, as it happens one of the following encounters is with a judge...
So yes, in certain circumstances, I'll let PCs try to steal from NPCs during a scenario. Of course, this won't affect the gold or items gained on the chronicle sheet. There may be consequences for getting caught and I'll be using some of the ideas presented in this thread to deal with them. I also won't let them go overboard (no stealing a +2 Evil Outsider Bane Greatsword from a merchant). But creative, out of the box thinking should be encouraged whenever possible.
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Also one thing to consider, depending on the law of the land, the penalty for stealing might be the loss of a hand.
I had one character, who was a pesky Andoran until the Grand Lodge became available and he then switched, who had to put up some fliers encouraging slaves to revolt. He was cought, put in jail and given several lashes for his seditious act then set free. No bonus prestige point for him.
Anyways my point is, depending on the region, the punishment maybe a fine, hard labor, the loss of a hand....etc there are all sorts of possibilities.......if he or she gets caught.
I think there also is lots of good advice up thread.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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This is also coming from a "new to PFS" player, who wants an edge [in wealth] because he feels PFS wealth rules are too restricting (like not being able to keep everything they find and not being able to sell all the Pre-Gen's gear and keep the gold.)
I assume most players ask these questions at first, some people don't like "because this is a fair system" in response. I've had other players in the past say they won't play PFS again because of the whole 'you don't keep what you find' thing and I don't understand why they hate that fact so much. But I'm me.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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...there are players coming into Pathfinder from a video game experience where there is little to no consequence from pickpocketing NPCs.
Like so many who started playing D&D in the 80s... a halfling thief was my first character. ...
So, I have a soft spot for players of true thieves.
I can't help chuckling at this. :)
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I think you should brace the player for your ruling before you do it.
I think it is horribly unfair if the PC expects one thing and the dm knows what they expect and plan something different for them.
If I had a PC want to do this I would have them make skill checks to determine the situation. Then depending on how well they did I would give them a range of worth they might steal.
If the PC sees a merchant selling small magical items it is unfair to let him succeed and get a few copper, while punishment is "technically render the pc unplayable in my book".
They should have a chance to understand the risk/gain before you cheat them with DM fiat.
If they were a new character I would have them do appraise or perceptions checks. Asking them is they want to case the place first. Then allow them to understand their options.
If you do not want to consider the benefit of stealing you could just make the risk/punishmment to high and the reward not worth it. There are ways to do this without seeming unfair. Have a guard/shopkeeper notice the pc scoping the place. Have the daughter/son of the shop keep infatuated with the PC so they follow them. There are tons of ways. Great DMs give PCs fluff that controls their characters, and give the PCs the perception they still control their characters and make thier own choices.
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Playing morality police isn't the job of a PFS GM. You gave not nearly enough information to determine if a PC was being a jerk. Was he trying to hog the spotlight and tell a story about how bad ass a thief his character was? Or was he seeking a creative solution to a problem that you squashed? Or was he simply trying to seek out a fair share of the spotlight? I don't know.
All I know is that he expressed a desire to pick an NPCs pocket. That's not even actually action. Let me clarifiy.
Example 1:
"I want to pick that merchants pocket. No one acts that snidely without paying a fee. Is there an opportunity to do so without much risk?"
Example 2:
"When the merchant moves to help my paladin friend I palm a few coins from his purse."
Example 3: "Frag the Pathfinders! I'm going on a looting spree across town."
Only example three is seriously disruptive and needs to be squashed in my opinion. Also example one and two are very different in that the first is asking the GM for person and the second is declaring his actions. It might be a fun exercise to think through how you would deal with each of these at your table.
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I can't help chuckling at this. :)Like so many who started playing D&D in the 80s... a halfling thief was my first character. ...
So, I have a soft spot for players of true thieves.
I thought it was interesting that Drogon, a real-life shopkeeper, seems to have a soft spot for people who steal from shopkeepers. ;-)
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I thought it was interesting that Drogon, a real-life shopkeeper, seems to have a soft spot for people who steal from shopkeepers. ;-)I can't help chuckling at this. :)Like so many who started playing D&D in the 80s... a halfling thief was my first character. ...
So, I have a soft spot for players of true thieves.
Well, I am certain it is vitally important to keep the gaming context in mind here. I am sure he would have little appreciation for someone who stole from his shop in life. :p
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I thought it was interesting that Drogon, a real-life shopkeeper, seems to have a soft spot for people who steal from shopkeepers. ;-)I can't help chuckling at this. :)Like so many who started playing D&D in the 80s... a halfling thief was my first character. ...
So, I have a soft spot for players of true thieves.
Well, I suppose from a relative hardness standard, a lime pit is a soft spot. As is a shallow grave... ;-)
My first character that I can remember was a thief. Chaotic evil. He didn't last long after he realized that the party was carrying more loot than he was getting paid to scout for them and tried to drop them to their death by cutting the rope they were climbing.
GM's really shouldn't let 7 year olds play chaotic evil thieves. (Except that I think that was what I was supposed to do, and was being primed. But after that his friends wouldn't play with me anymore. I don't think they trusted me for some reason. Silly college students.)
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...there are players coming into Pathfinder from a video game experience where there is little to no consequence from pickpocketing NPCs.I can't help chuckling at this. :)Like so many who started playing D&D in the 80s... a halfling thief was my first character. ...
So, I have a soft spot for players of true thieves.
And there are also players who see the Rogue class as a mandate to grab everything that isn't nailed down.I was by no means saying that video games are the sole source of this behavior. It really just comes down to a player
- not understanding that there are consequences to their actions, or
- not accepting that some of those consequences cannot reasonably be dealt with in the context of PFS.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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They should have a chance to understand the risk/gain before you cheat them with DM fiat.
Playing morality police isn't the job of a PFS GM. You gave not nearly enough information to determine if a PC was being a jerk.
A couple things I should make clear.
The player made his intentions extremely clear. He didn't say "I want to have the thrill of using my Sleight of Hand skill points." He said in "a matter of fact tone" that he wanted to find a place to steal some Cure Light Wounds potions because he didn't want to spend money on them but wanted to use them.
Also, I didn't outright tell him no. We talked about implications if he were caught, that the point of getting gold on the sheet was that he should use his gold to buy consumables, etc.
We left it at "I'll post and see what other DM's do so I can conform to what I should do" and left it at that.
This thread hasn't helped me in the least to know what I should do. It seems to be the general consensus that it is perfectly fine with most GM's for PC's to use thievery to to in effect increase the amount of gold per adventure, with the only penalty of needing to pay a bribe to get out of jail when caught. If that is campaign leadership's opinion I'll be a good soldier and GM it that way.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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James, actually the consensus is closer to (in my reading)
GMs may, if it is not disruptive, allow thieves who are members of the thieves guild (vanity) or who have an appropriate profession to use their slight of hand check to effectively make their day job check during the adventure instead of at the end.
Alternately, the GM can allow them to use their slight of hand to steal something needed for the adventure, however like all treasure found, it is surrendered to the pathfinders at the end of the scenario. Again this is only if it is not disruptive to play.
Third, the *minimun* punishment is to pay a fine (I would say twice to three times the value of the thing stolen, others might vary) however different markets will have different rules, and losing a hand* (and needing to pay for regeneration or leave play?) is not unreasonable. However, whatever the punishment, the player should be allowed to at least try to find out what it is before the attempt is made. Also, remember that most places have increasing penalties for repeat offenders.
Most importantly, it will *never* allow them to get more gold per adventure than the adventure max + day job.
*"We don't chop of their hand so that they don't steal again. We chop off their head so they don't *think* about stealing again" is probably excessive however. (stolen from Terry Pratchett)
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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This is also coming from a "new to PFS" player, who wants an edge [in wealth] because he feels PFS wealth rules are too restricting (like not being able to keep everything they find and not being able to sell all the Pre-Gen's gear and keep the gold.)
Well, technically, you do get to keep everything you find. the amount of gold you get for the adventure is basically the amount of gold you would get if you took everything you found, sold it, and split it amongst the party. That's why if you miss the treasure in a room, the amount you get at the end of the session is reduced.
As far as selling the Pregen's gear, the Pregen isn't your character. You get to play him for one session, then you go back to playing your character. If you sold all his gear, he would get to keep the money, not you.
And the rules aren't really any more restrictive than being in a home game. In a home game, the GM would just adjust the loot downward to keep you in the right wealth range. (well, if they are any good.) The only real restriction is that unlike a video game, you can't grind for more money, though even then usually the game if it's well designed dictates a limit of wealth per level in that if you grind for wealth, usually you will level up as well.
This thread hasn't helped me in the least to know what I should do. It seems to be the general consensus that it is perfectly fine with most GM's for PC's to use thievery to to in effect increase the amount of gold per adventure, with the only penalty of needing to pay a bribe to get out of jail when caught. If that is campaign leadership's opinion I'll be a good soldier and GM it that way.
I like the Day Job answer: if he wants to steal stuff, tell him that according to PFS house rules he gets one Day Job's worth of stuff per adventure (in the form of whichever goods he likes or cash, if he prefers).
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stuffs
I did not mean to acuse you of anything. By no means. By you just saying no I feel is an acceptable answer. Now there are better ways to handle it, but that is definately a very good answer.
My point was in general to PCs stealing. I would hate to see a DM mark a PC dead because they got caught stealing because they decided how the situation should be handled in an unfair manner. Pathfinders are often asked to do illegal activities. So to decide that since it is not in the script a DM wants to punish them for trying it is a poor DM. I was disagreeing with some others above.
Now there are no rules for PCs doing these kinds of things. I am not sure I heard any rulings for something this off track.
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The player made his intentions extremely clear. He didn't say "I want to have the thrill of using my Sleight of Hand skill points." He said in "a matter of fact tone" that he wanted to find a place to steal some Cure Light Wounds potions because he didn't want to spend money on them but wanted to use them..
Honestly I'd just tell him no.
That sort of action outside the scope of the sceniero isn't appropriate for PFS play. I'd let him make a case after the mod, but if his motive is just free consumables the he's outa luck.
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its a vague situation while its criminally wrong and in no way benefits the character long term, its not illegal. things to consider like was said getting caught, jail, fine, end of scenario for that character..etc
downside to the thief idea is that there isnt any purpose in pfs for it. officially it cant be ur day job, unless they take it as profession, other than he idea of offsetting missed gold. however you cant use a sleight of hand check for ur day job so id encourage em to play the hero instead of the villian.