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As a GM who has always hated the Paladin Class, love the AP for it's potential to truly grind them down, force them to make moral decisions, and ultimately punish them vigorously with things that find them irritating-but-tasty!!!
I love the premise of the AP, and the idea is solid.
That said, I have done some tweaking as all GM's do when running an AP, to better customize the experience.
Mendev and the Worldwound, what comes to mind when thinking of the crusade? I know! A Meat Grinder.
Putting it simply, I established that the players could play their 10th level heroes from the start, and have one 4th and 1st level character each. Now this sounds like a terrible idea! Well follow along now, this is where it gets interesting.
When the wardstone falls, the high level PC's are in the thick of the action, and systematically get shredded along with the silver dragon! So yes the players are devastated, this is good! They also feel they soiled themselves. After all, what can a 4th level PC do that a 10th level couldn't? Except die well.
Now believe it or not I had some amazing RP interaction, 10th level guys and gals trying to save others, igniting the true feel of desperation, only to be cut down by a Demon.
Making the lower level characters panic as they sat in the tavern when the wardstone fell, each party was divided geographically, so they couldn't help one another. Some actually lasted long enough to interact with the lower level heroes, gear was pretty much abandoned in panic. Trying to grab that +2 longsword often resulted in being someone's dinner.
(this is how many of the 4th level PC's died)Simply because I baited the ones I knew would dive for higher level gear, allowing them the honor of feeding-a-demon day at the zoo.
Some survived long enough to make it to certain places that were still standing later in the adventure (they didn't know what locations they were, so it was a hoot!). Some were picked off by NPC foes, like:
1) LE Cavalier trying to get the attention of a demon or two.
2) Killed by Crusaders who lost their minds.
3) Wandering Demons.
Remember this takes place while the 1st levels are swallowed up by the earth. So they really are cut off from one another. Upon re-emerging from the catacombs, the formerly 1st levels are now dealing with what the 4ths have been fighting.
(only 1 of the 4th level pc's survived)
So largely I did follow the AP, but felt the magnitude of a wardstone falling was too light, and the horror of what they faced was glossed over. If surviving a low level dungeon crawl warrants one to "deserve" mythic tiers, then I felt they should understand just how much they did earn it. A lot of PC's died, simply because I refused to run the surface battle the same as the battle down in the catacombs. It just felt wrong awarding them mythic for something so unspectacular.
I'm trying to say simply, that this is the Worldwound pouring out, Kenabres is lost, and all I get to do is run the PC's through a dungeon Crawl to freedom, and the nightmares they witness afterwards.
Apparently the Worldwound has only so many demons in it. I mean, let's face it, it didn't feel like the abyss was opened up much at all. So I improvised with a surface battle that was not only horrific, but definitely caught the flavor of the Worldwound. Or at least I think so.
No disrespect to all of the wonderful staff at Paizo, but I felt this should be a higher level adventure path, taking you from 4th to 20th.
Or something like that.
Also Paladins, thank you for putting out the complexity of what goodness is in Champions of Purity. I now have an Asmodean Demon Hunter, Hellknight who is more virtuous than the paladin. Hey they can be LG. Heck even the Ranger and the Rogue are more pure of heart than the paladin. So when Iomedae gives her blessing she passed up the Pally for the Cavalier. HUZZAH!
Technically the Paladin already has Iomedae's blessing. So I refuse to empower that specific class further. Largely due to the player being more self-righteous than most tele-evangelists. Which brings me to the 2nd point...
Homosexuality in the game, doesn't bother me, but some players are way too sensitive IMO. The beauty of the AP is that it helps players and GM's put a more realistic spin on the game.
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A part of me feels that you (& from the sounds of things your players...) are seriously missing the point of this AP & might have more fun playing/running something more along the lines of Way of the Wicked...
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Not at all, we've really enjoyed the AP so far. With and even Without problem players (who happen to play a Paladin). I just feel the dire situation in the beginning needed to be more... well "Dire".
The rest of the adventure plotted along and was both fun and exciting. Though it was fun to find a wounded 4th level player who survived topside. Saving who they could (the low level party), and adding a more dramatic effect to the kickoff. Now into book 2 they don't feel like "heroes" as much as the rogue said, "Poster Children and Propaganda for some bloody crusade".
So he and the Queen don't see eye to eye.
No they definitely are getting it, and will be faced later with the transformed versions of fallen beloved 10th level pc's they had. (but that's a side note, not a major plot or hook)It's a great motivator though. Each will probably bee a lesser guard for a greater demon or such.
If anything the AP is always meant to be played as-is with a few tweaks for your group, as every group is different. I've played AP's and ran them as-is and enjoyed them both ways, with and without tweaking.
The party is split over the "can a demon be redeemed?" question.
I say in this game anything is possible.
I like mythic, but it just felt like for my players I had to go the extra mile.
Now finished with book one they read what they were allowed, and found they liked the add-ons. So yay.
Every group is different though.
So what works for us may not work for everyone. But it was a blast!
To be honest, I plan on running the initial combat up top. But rather than have the PCs fighting any really powerful demons, I was going to let them save people's lives, while slowly constraining them and moving them into one central location... where the rift opens and they end up below ground.
This will be with 1st level PCs. And most of the encounters will be environmental rather than deadly combat. That way the players can feel like they did SOMETHING up above... and can even have a few moments of heroics before appearing below ground. (And yes, this means I'll be able to include such things as a certain elvish Riftwarden being hit by the Storm King's whip and flung into a PC (who'll roll a Reflex save to try and catch him) and a certain Rogue using up most of her arrows firing them at demons! (And maybe even a certain noble losing his Rapier as he actually fought up above.)
To me, this is the better way to run this rather than two groups of PCs and killing off most of the higher-level group due to greediness and the like. You have the PCs knowing what happened above and having lived through the first moments... and even having a chance to try and be heroes before falling through the cracks.
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See, I like that too! It's a good adventure when it leaves enough wiggle room to customize.
Also, good motivation. Award 20 xp to Tangent101.
Actually the greed was only in one player who seemed to bring on his own end. Essentially they had hit 10th and wanted to go to the Worldwound, I granted this wish. Also the loss of life, the innocents slain, and the horrors they witnessed while topside.
After all the abyss isn't pretty-and definitely not supposed to be a cakewalk. Right?
Oh the 10th levels were the zealots intent on purging the abyss, they asked for this believe it or not, and I delivered.
It was more survival instinct than greed.
Oh they definitely knew what happened topside from survivors, and one of the 4th level's who survived but was pinned under debris, that a 1st level had to save him from a oncoming beastie. Oh how the respect for low level PC's flew that night.
Thank you both for your thoughts, and I just hope everyone enjoys, and survives what is to come! :)
*snip*
I say, I like your style. I may have to appropriate parts of that idea. I'm planning on running Wrath when I get done my current RoW campaign and was pondering how best to set up the opening. Having the "sacrificial lion" party to demonstrate how deadly this path will be may be a fun little exercise.
I will also say I share your dislike of paladins, or rather paladins played poorly. Everyone I've ever seen played has been played straight out of "Lawful Stupid" hand book. This path seems like a good opportunity to actually stretch the interpretations of that class a bit.
atheral, you've never run into one of my Paladins. ;)
Then again, I toss alignment out the window mostly and instead sic consequences and responsibility for one's actions to the characters. And the paladins in question are Paladins of the Goddess of Death and Healing in my campaign world, with a viewpoint of killing one's foes... but if a foe surrenders then honor that surrender unless they prove themselves dishonorable. (Except for undead. Undead are to be destroyed at all costs (unless doing so would result in more undead being made). Even good undead.)
Or to put it another way, before I decided to move my entire campaign into Golarion, I had a Paladin of said Goddess as a GMPC. Rokhar in RoW was NOT going to admit to being a necromancer upon learning of the religion of said Paladin, as he'd ignore the surrender and kill a necromancer out-of-hand (it's one of the Church Dictates - necromancers are to be put to death so to prevent them from creating more undead).
To me, Lawful Good for a Paladin means "you obey the dictates of the church. The laws of mankind do not hold greater sway over you than the rules of the church."
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Many thanks. The "Sacrificial Lion" is such an adequate name for it. Also you appreciate how special a Paladin is, played poorly they are the bane of any game.
"I crush the red dragon egg" Just because...
"It's the right thing to do."
Not a tear, or with a heavy heart believing he will spare the world of some great evil to come. But "Just Because".
Well said, this will stretch the lengths of Lawful Good interpretations.
Fairness, Hope, Courage, Valor, Honor.
Oh wait I'm being my Cavalier again!
I always thought that Paladins are more Cavalier with a pinch of Cleric added. Minus the snazzy spell selection.
Pallys can be a great class. If you play them right.
Played wrong they become Dudley-Do-Right.
Indeed.
I agree with both of you.
A well played paladin should have struggles in determining if he's doing what is right. They may be forced into moral quandaries over their acts as part of a group that may not necessarily align 100% with what they or their code thinks is right. They should be tested against their code and come out a stronger character for the testing or fall as their struggle overwhelms them.
A Paladin should be an example member of whatever church/order/sect whatever they belong to but not "smite 'em all and let the gods sort it out" automaton characters. (Of course after reading Chronicles of the Righteous it appears that is exactly what an "example member" of Ragathiel's church would be...).
This is why I cringe whenever one of my players mentions the web show "JourneyQuest" and it's paladin character. It's a blatant parody of the lawful stupid archetype but oh is it painful to watch it play out.
A Paladin should be an example member of whatever church/order/sect whatever they belong to but not "smite 'em all and let the gods sort it out" automaton characters. (Of course after reading Chronicles of the Righteous it appears that is exactly what an "example member" of Ragathiel's church would be...)
Which is a big part of why I am inclined to take a very close look at any character created as a worshiper of Ragathiel. As much as I really have no interest in him personally, I feel that more needs to be written to better explain why he qualifies as Lawful Good as opposed to Lawful Neutral at best.
This of course is entirely aside from the OP of this thread so that is where I'm leaving it. From Cavalier Lord's further statements, I suspect that it was simply a combination of bad signal-to-noise ratio on the OP, combined with a player who, it seems to me, doesn't 'get' Paladins. Glad to hear you & your guys are enjoying the AP, Cavalier Lord.