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My GM already ruled on this and I don't expect his opinion to change, but I thought I'd see what other people do in such a situation.
I'll provide a hypothetical scenario (since the scenario hasn't happened in the campaign yet).
A ranger casts Charm Animal on a wild animal. The animal becomes Friendly. He then uses Wild Empathy, and the animal is now helpful. What happens when Charm Animal runs out?
I haven't seen any rules written for this, but if someone could provide some that could end this right here that would work, too. My GM has ruled that the animal's attitude drops 2 levels after Charm Animal runs out, down to indifferent. He has also ruled that I can't prevent this drop by using Wild Empathy before the Charm Animal spell runs out. No matter what I do, after the spell runs out, the animal will become indifferent.
I'm not expecting my GM to change his ruling regardless of opinions posted here, but I'm wondering what other people have done or would do in such a situation.
If taming or domesticating the animal using Wild Empathy and Handle Animal after using Charm Animal, it would not drop to indifferent after the spell ended.
Actually, I'm really not sure where he's finding that ruling, because it's not in the spell description or the errata. Maybe it's from another rule-set or game (or I'm missing something).
Handle Animal has rules for rearing an animal from infancy, but I don't see anything on domesticating the charmed adult animal.
My reasoning is that Wild Empathy is not Handle Animal. Wild Empathy is Diplomacy. Diplomacy neither tames nor domesticates an animal.
Okay, following Islore's reasoning, is there any way to tame an adult animal? I haven't seen rules for doing so, but I also haven't seen anything saying you can't.
Can you just use wild empathy after the spell runs out? The creature is indifferent, and likely in a position you want it in (a fenced in area with enough food to distract it probably, and preferably in some raised position where you can interact with it but it can't chomp you if GM decides to lash out).
I mean, looking at the description of wild empathy, wild animals start at unfriendly and domestic ones start at indifferent. You are usually ahead of the game. At worst this puts in a 24 hour delay if you are playing by the rules of diplomacy for shifting attitudes. Keep the thing calm and distracted for that long and there shouldn't be anything the GM could do to you without admitting he has an unspoken fiat against taming. It is not like the bear will be personally indignant that you used magic to manipulate it.
cannot find my animal archive companion book but pretty sure the answer you are looking for is within its pages
Unless animal archive contains different rules, it looks like most people that I've seen interpret the rules for Charm Animal and Wild Empathy incorrectly.
Sure, you can get the wild animal to 'helpful', but it isn't your pet, which is what most people I've run across seem to think of it. It is still just a wild animal. With no rules for taming adult animals (in real life, it is almost impossible to tame an adult, wild animal), the animal will have it's own priorities that will cause it to leave from time to time. It may have young that it needs to take care of or it may just not feel like accompanying you. It won't leave its own environment (that would be against its nature and therefore even when charmed it won't do this) and it won't accompany you into a dungeon or city (unless a city is its home already, but then it likely won't leave the city).
This is something Paizo should probably address in a rulebook, unless, as I said, it has been in Animal Archive (which I don't have).
A friend lent me Animal Archive. There is definitely nothing in there for domesticating or taming an adult animal. You definitely cannot charm an animal, use Wild Empathy and then get a new pet.
So how many people have been doing that wrong the whole time?
Rearing a wild animal is a Handle Animal 15+HD check and it can be used while the animal is charmed. Even though the rules say, "to raise from infancy", I have never seen them restricted only to infant animals (even in official play).
And, regardless, it does not become your "pet" like an animal companion. It just becomes a trained animal NPC.
Edit: After reading several threads and FAQs, apparently there are no rules for domesticating adult wild animals. Most DMs seem to allow teaching adult animals tricks if given enough time; however, they may or may not require domestication (depending on the DM).
So, by RAW, the animal would be helpful to you after the spell ended, but it wouldn't be necessarily domesticated or trained.
By RAI, the animal would be helpful and trained in whatever tricks you taught it.
That's a major interpretation. As far as I know, there are no cases of domesticating adult animals in real life. Certainly they can become tamer, but no matter what you do they remain extremely wild and raising from infancy is a necessity.
My guess is that any reference to adult taming and training of a wild animal is deliberately left out and most people have been stretching the rules. There is certainly no precedent for gaining a pet from Wild Empathy in any way. It would still be nice to get an opinion from Paizo, though. Anyone know if such a thing is possible?
It would still be nice to get an opinion from Paizo, though. Anyone know if such a thing is possible?
Read my edit.
Also, the Paizo staff tends to prefer to leave some nebulous rules up to DMs. My DM allows the domestication of adult wild animals in his game, but that could be because we live in the south and several of us have had "wild" adult pets (raccoons, foxes, etc). Your DM may rule differently, but it's up for interpretation.
I read your edit. Unless you link me to this FAQ, I have no idea what you're talking about. I haven't been able to find anything.
I'm not a rules expert (and I routinely have misconceptions on how rules should be), but I kind of think your DM is right.
I've read a bunch of forums in the past and never made the connection that others on this board have made. Since charm animal has a duration, Duration 1 hour/level, it makes sense that after the spell ends the animal returns to its normal state, which could be one mood better with wild empathy.
From there, the animal is no longer afraid (indifferent) and is in a better state to use wild empathy over a given time to increase its mood to allow a pet.
I think of the stories (and probably only stories) of man befriending a wolf. Once they are calm, they stay on the periphery but are interested (indifferent). Later, another wild empathy can be made to increase to friendly, and now the wolf comes into camp from time to time. He could b taught a trick, maybe defends the human form time to time. Helpful is when the animal now sees his as a member of the pack, maybe the alpha.
I know this is conjecture, but I think the rules follow this. I mean, this is a game of fluff and imagination and not just hard locking into rules.
But again... On these boards, I'm wrong all the bloody time, lol.
A ranger casts Charm Animal on a wild animal. The animal becomes Friendly. He then uses Wild Empathy, and the animal is now helpful. What happens when Charm Animal runs out?
There are no official rules, but if the enchantment increases the attitude by two steps (unfriendly to friendly), then I would have the attitude decrease by two steps after the enchantment wears off. In your scenario, if the animal's attitude becomes 'helpful' while an enchantment is active, I would decrease the attitude back down to 'indifferent' after it wears off.
Allowing the attitudes to remain 'friendly' or 'helpful' would be an abuse of the Charm Animal spell. The magic is temporary so any permanent enhancements breaks the mechanic of this 1st-level spell. It would become too powerful.