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Does momentary glimpse (Oracke time domain) REALLY require standard action? Because spending a standard action to get a +2 AC/to hit for one round... is so bad
Yes. It's actually pretty useful for skill checks when stacked with guidance, but compared to some other revelations it's tepid.
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Momentary Glimpse (Su): Once per day, you can gain a glimpse into your immediate future. On the round after you use this ability, you gain a +2 insight bonus on a single attack roll, saving throw, or skill check or to your Armor Class until the start of your next turn. At 5th level, and every four levels thereafter, you can use this ability one additional time per day.
I dont see where it says it takes a standard action. Its undefined, so it does not take any of your actions.
Its standard by default. My problem is that is has the whole "+ AC". Like, why would I want 2 ac if it costs me so much.
Anyone?
Momentary Glimpse (Su): Once per day, you can gain a glimpse into your immediate future. On the round after you use this ability, you gain a +2 insight bonus on a single attack roll, saving throw, or skill check or to your Armor Class until the start of your next turn. At 5th level, and every four levels thereafter, you can use this ability one additional time per day.I dont see where it says it takes a standard action. Its undefined, so it does not take any of your actions.
Because supernatural abilities are standard unless defined.
It doesn't say what kind of action thus standard.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If this was intended as a no-action at the moment of the check, then "on the round after you use this ability" and "until the start of your next turn" would be meaningless, as the check would happen immediately and be done with. Therefore, it's likely intended to be a declared action used when you expect to need a bonus on the following turn, and the action is used to look ahead and see what to adjust to improve your chances. So, standard action, since no alternate time is specified.
A standard action to get a bonus on a saving throw is pretty weird. The cases where you could even do that are vanishingly rare. It seems likely that they screwed up and it ought to state an exception to the "Su = standard" rule and be a free/immediate action.
But given what it says ... standard action. Of course, I'd house-rule otherwise at the drop of a hat.
I can think of many such cases where a boost in saving throw on the following round would be invaluable.
- You're about to open a trapped chest or door and have no way to disable the trap.
- Your party is about to ambush a basilisk.
- You are trying to fight off poison or other fast-acting affliction.
And so on. Think outside of mid-combat action economy and it becomes much more useful.
This has been a fun thought exercise; it's made my opinion of the revelation improve a bit. As I'm playing a deaf time oracle this evening, I may have to reconsider this revelation.
If this was intended as a no-action at the moment of the check, then "on the round after you use this ability" and "until the start of your next turn" would be meaningless, as the check would happen immediately and be done with. Therefore, it's likely intended to be a declared action used when you expect to need a bonus on the following turn, and the action is used to look ahead and see what to adjust to improve your chances. So, standard action, since no alternate time is specified.
Therefore, the steps of using Momentary Glimpse are:
1) Declare a standard action to use Momentary Glimpse.2) During the standard action choose and state whether Momentary Glimpse's insight bonus will apply to an attack roll, saving throw, skill check, or Armor Class.
3) One round later, it is the beginning of your next turn.
4) If you chose attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, you use the single-use bonus that turn. if you chose Armor Class, the bonus lasts until the beginning of your next turn after this turn.
I hope that any FAQ clarifies whether step 2 is necessary or whether the choice can be made during step 4.
I can think of many such cases where a boost in saving throw on the following round would be invaluable.
- You're about to open a trapped chest or door and have no way to disable the trap.
- Your party is about to ambush a basilisk.
- You are trying to fight off poison or other fast-acting affliction.And so on. Think outside of mid-combat action economy and it becomes much more useful.
This has been a fun thought exercise; it's made my opinion of the revelation improve a bit. As I'm playing a deaf time oracle this evening, I may have to reconsider this revelation.
Yes, outside of combat, using a standard action to activate Momentary Glimpse is a trivial cost.
However, these effective uses of Momentary Glimpse seem out of flavor. In order to use a revelation that is supposed to mimic precognition, the player has to be able to predict the events on the next round himself before using the ability. This ability would be better named "Plan Ahead."
I also wonder why Momentary Glimpse has a once-per-day limit, when it largely has the same effect as Aid Another, which has no such limit.
The Luck Domain powers are similar to Momentary Glimpse and provide a template for improving Momentary Glimpse without significantly changing it:
Momentary Glimpse Revisited (Su): Once per day, as a standard action, you can gain a glimpse into your immediate future. Until the end of your next turn, you can add a +2 insight bonus to a single d20 roll that you have just made before the results of the roll are revealed, or to your Armor Class. At 5th level, and every four levels thereafter, you can use this ability one additional time per day.
The two major changes in the revisit are moving the "immediate future" to immediately after using Momentary Glimpse and delaying as late as possible the choice of where to use the +2 insight bonus.
A standard action to get a bonus on a saving throw is pretty weird. The cases where you could even do that are vanishingly rare. It seems likely that they screwed up and it ought to state an exception to the "Su = standard" rule and be a free/immediate action.
But given what it says ... standard action. Of course, I'd house-rule otherwise at the drop of a hat.
I can think of many such cases where a boost in saving throw on the following round would be invaluable.
- You're about to open a trapped chest or door and have no way to disable the trap.
- Your party is about to ambush a basilisk.
- You are trying to fight off poison or other fast-acting affliction.And so on. Think outside of mid-combat action economy and it becomes much more useful.
This has been a fun thought exercise; it's made my opinion of the revelation improve a bit. As I'm playing a deaf time oracle this evening, I may have to reconsider this revelation.
In all of those situations, for pretty much every class I've played, I would rather have a Readied Action available rather than +2 to one save.
That's the problem with it. You would only use it when you know you'll be in danger precisely on the next turn, but if you know that then why are you not readying an action to not even need that bonus?
If you know a trap is about to be sprung, then ready an action to use acrobatics or 5 foot step. Or ready an action to cast Teleport or Dimension Door. Ready an action to counter-spell. Etc.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I dont see where it says it takes a standard action. Its undefined, so it does not take any of your actions.
Core p186 "Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability’s description)."
rather than +2 to one save.
Why is this entire thread saying +2 to one save when the ability can be to attack roll, saving throw, or skill check or to your Armor Class.
1) Try to save party by killing big bad Goblin (attack roll)
2) Set off a trap intentionally since no rogue (saving throw)
3) Try to diplomacy the mayor (skill check)
4) BBEG is next to you and about to full attack you while you can't get away (armor class)
I dont see where it says it takes a standard action. Its undefined, so it does not take any of your actions.Core p186 "Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability’s description)."
rather than +2 to one save.Why is this entire thread saying +2 to one save when the ability can be to attack roll, saving throw, or skill check or to your Armor Class.
1) Try to save party by killing big bad Goblin (attack roll)
2) Set off a trap intentionally since no rogue (saving throw)
3) Try to diplomacy the mayor (skill check)
4) BBEG is next to you and about to full attack you while you can't get away (armor class)
The bonus to skill checks is a bit strange since diplomacy and many more skill checks are at least a standard action.
I guess it still works for skills such as stealth, perception, etc.
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The two major changes in the revisit are moving the "immediate future" to immediately after using Momentary Glimpse and delaying as late as possible the choice of where to use the +2 insight bonus.[QUOTE= Quote:
Momentary Glimpse Revisited (Su): Once per day, as a standard action, you can gain a glimpse into your immediate future. Until the end of your next turn, you can add a +2 insight bonus to a single d20 roll that you have just made before the results of the roll are revealed, or to your Armor Class. At 5th level, and every four levels thereafter, you can use this ability one additional time per day.
And adding the +2 after you have seen what you rolled on the dice but before knowing if it is a success or failure.
Way more powerful.|
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A standard action to get a bonus on a saving throw is pretty weird. The cases where you could even do that are vanishingly rare. It seems likely that they screwed up and it ought to state an exception to the "Su = standard" rule and be a free/immediate action.
But given what it says ... standard action. Of course, I'd house-rule otherwise at the drop of a hat.
I can think of many such cases where a boost in saving throw on the following round would be invaluable.
- You're about to open a trapped chest or door and have no way to disable the trap.
- Your party is about to ambush a basilisk.
- You are trying to fight off poison or other fast-acting affliction.And so on. Think outside of mid-combat action economy and it becomes much more useful.
This has been a fun thought exercise; it's made my opinion of the revelation improve a bit. As I'm playing a deaf time oracle this evening, I may have to reconsider this revelation.
In all of those situations, for pretty much every class I've played, I would rather have a Readied Action available rather than +2 to one save.
That's the problem with it. You would only use it when you know you'll be in danger precisely on the next turn, but if you know that then why are you not readying an action to not even need that bonus?
If you know a trap is about to be sprung, then ready an action to use acrobatics or 5 foot step. Or ready an action to cast Teleport or Dimension Door. Ready an action to counter-spell. Etc.
Because readying an action don't do anything useful in most of those situations?
- If you ready an action in an ambush you get a standard action, exactly the same standard action that you get during a ambush, no gain.
- if you are the guy that is springing the trap you can't have a ready action to avoid the trap effect,a s you are acting;
- how a readied action will help you fight off a poison?
Remember, when you ready an action you use a standard action to ready a standard action and change your initiative result, so you don't get more actions, you get the same quantity. You are trading away a standard action in which you can make whatever action you want to get a standard action in which you can make only the readied action.
Well its standart acton to Aid Another for +2 ac against 1 opponen and you have to make attack roll.
I guess it needs errata to make it free action.
Well its standart acton to Aid Another for +2 ac against 1 opponen and you have to make attack roll.
I guess it needs errata to make it free action.
That's apples to oranges.
Not sure why a perfectly functional ability requires an FAQ entry besides someone not being able to "think outside the box" or just plain not liking what it does.
The ability actually works as written, FAQs being requested because you don't like how they work is a waste of dev/design team time, because they could be working on something that actually doesn't make sense or rules that conflict. I'm honestly shocked this has 7 FAQs hit already.
And people complain when things go for months without answers....*sigh*
You right, rolled 1 on my reading check.
Aid another was just an example of trading standart action for +2 to AC or attack roll, as justification.
Not sure why a perfectly functional ability requires an FAQ entry besides someone not being able to "think outside the box" or just plain not liking what it does.
The ability actually works as written, FAQs being requested because you don't like how they work is a waste of dev/design team time, because they could be working on something that actually doesn't make sense or rules that conflict. I'm honestly shocked this has 7 FAQs hit already.
And people complain when things go for months without answers....*sigh*
This posting is my fault. Regen had asked the Advice Forum for recommendations of a time oracle character who would be a solo adventurer for first level. I recommended that he focus on abilities that did not consume standard actions, due to the action economy. I mistook Momentary Glimpse for such an ability.
The reason for my mistake was fourfold. First, I read the ability in haste. Second, the ability does not mention what kind of action it requires. Third, abilities I recall that alter die rolls off one's turn are immediate actions. And fourth, my misreading was at the correct power level for a revelation.
Regen him- or herself corrected my mistake, saying, "I thought momentary glimpse DOES cost a standard action." The statement that many people above have repeated, that supernatural abilities take a standard action unless stated otherwise, makes clear that Momentary Glimpse requires a standard action. (Thus, it is not desirable for Regen's lone adventurer.)
Yet my corrected interpretation of Momentary Glimpse is weird. It requires a standard action to set up a +2 insight bonus, then it delays a round, and requires a non-action to apply the bonus. This unusual timing and the other limits on it render Momentary Glimpse much, much weaker than other revelations.
I apologize for the fuss, but the perfectly functional ability feels like it is malfunctioning. Maybe I am still misinterpreting Momentary Glimpse.
Momentary Glimpse Revisited (Su): Once per day, as a standard action, you can gain a glimpse into your immediate future. Until the end of your next turn, you can add a +2 insight bonus to a single d20 roll that you have just made before the results of the roll are revealed, or to your Armor Class. At 5th level, and every four levels thereafter, you can use this ability one additional time per day.
The two major changes in the revisit are moving the "immediate future" to immediately after using Momentary Glimpse and delaying as late as possible the choice of where to use the +2 insight bonus.
And adding the +2 after you have seen what you rolled on the dice but before knowing if it is a success or failure.
Way more powerful.
Yes, it is way more powerful. It would be almost as powerful as most 1st level revelations.
The moment after I have seen what I rolled on the dice but before knowing if it is a success or failure is as late as possible to apply the +2 insight bonus. The current wording of Momentary Glimpse does not say when I chose to apply the bonus to a single attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. By moving the choice to after the die roll, I reduce the chance that a once-per-day ability is totally wasted. A d20 role has only a 10% chance of rolling a value where a +2 bonus makes a difference. A once-per-day ability that fizzles 90% of the time is no fun.
Compare it to the 1st level Luck Domain power:
Bit of Luck (Sp): You can touch a willing creature as a standard action, giving it a bit of luck. For the next round, any time the target rolls a d20, he may roll twice and take the more favorable result. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Best of two rolls averages to similar to a +3 bonus. Bit of Luck applies to every d20 roll during the one-round active period, it can be used more often, and it could target an ally instead of just oneself. It is more difficult to apply to one's own attack rolls though.
1) Try to save party by killing big bad Goblin (attack roll)
2) Set off a trap intentionally since no rogue (saving throw)
3) Try to diplomacy the mayor (skill check)
4) BBEG is next to you and about to full attack you while you can't get away (armor class)
And this is why i think it needs to be changed to maybe a swift action
1) Use it to gain +2 to attack roll? Why not just hit the goblin twice?
2) That is legit, but how often do you come across a trap that you KNOW is there, but cant disarm or walk around now that you know its there?
3) Yeh, out of combat it IS helpful.
4) That BBEG will STILL get to attack me, because he IS already next to me, and I dont get the bonus til next turn. Alternatively I could cast some spell that will make him save or suck.
Well its standart acton to Aid Another for +2 ac against 1 opponen and you have to make attack roll.
I guess it needs errata to make it free action.That's apples to oranges.
Not sure why a perfectly functional ability requires an FAQ entry besides someone not being able to "think outside the box" or just plain not liking what it does.
The ability actually works as written, FAQs being requested because you don't like how they work is a waste of dev/design team time, because they could be working on something that actually doesn't make sense or rules that conflict. I'm honestly shocked this has 7 FAQs hit already.
And people complain when things go for months without answers....*sigh*
+1
The ability isn’t great but it still works as written.Lot of Cleric domain abilities are just as weak or weaker.
If the player don’t like the ability he/she shouldn’t take it. If the GM is cool with it the GM could make it a swift action to activate or let the bonus apply to skill checks that takes longer than a full round action to perform: Climb, disable device, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Stealth etc.
If this was intended as a no-action at the moment of the check, then "on the round after you use this ability" and "until the start of your next turn" would be meaningless, as the check would happen immediately and be done with. Therefore, it's likely intended to be a declared action used when you expect to need a bonus on the following turn, and the action is used to look ahead and see what to adjust to improve your chances. So, standard action, since no alternate time is specified.Therefore, the steps of using Momentary Glimpse are:
1) Declare a standard action to use Momentary Glimpse.
2) During the standard action choose and state whether Momentary Glimpse's insight bonus will apply to an attack roll, saving throw, skill check, or Armor Class.
3) One round later, it is the beginning of your next turn.
4) If you chose attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, you use the single-use bonus that turn. if you chose Armor Class, the bonus lasts until the beginning of your next turn after this turn.I hope that any FAQ clarifies whether step 2 is necessary or whether the choice can be made during step 4.
It has been twelve posts and one week since I posted those lines and no-one has bothered to clear up my misconceptions.
Instead, Alarox, James Risner, Zark, and Diego Rossi continued the speculation on the rare cases where a +2 insight bonus that requires a standard action in advance could be useful. DarkPhoenixx mentioned Aid Another, Skylancer4 and Zark tried to declare Momentary Glimpse as perfectly functional. And Renen (Sorry about calling you Regen in one comment) and I tried to return to the original question.
Therefore, I had to clear up my remaining misconceptions myself by examining all the other 1st-level revelations and seeing the patterns in how they represent their mystery. Since other people will find this thread in a forum search on "Momentary Glimpse", let me report the answer in how to use this revelation.
Momentary Glimpse (Su): Once per day, you can gain a glimpse into your immediate future. On the round after you use this ability, you gain a +2 insight bonus on a single attack roll, saving throw, or skill check or to your Armor Class until the start of your next turn. At 5th level, and every four levels thereafter, you can use this ability one additional time per day.
It is set into motion as a standard action, but does nothing during that standard action. Instead, if the oracle makes an attack roll, saving throw, or skill check before the end of his or her next turn, he or she may apply a +2 insight bonus to that single roll as a non-action. Or instead, if someone else is going to make a die roll opposed by the oracle's Armor Class, before that same end-of-next-turn deadline, that +2 insight bonus may be added to the Armor Class and that bonus lasts until the end-of-next-turn deadline.
The phrase, "On the round after you use this ability," fooled me. I mistook it for "On the round after the round in which you use this ability," when really it should be read as "On the round beginning when you use this ability". I thought that the time delay I read into it was a attempt to make the ability feel like it was glimpse the future instead of the present, but really the lack of activity during the standard action is enough to accomplish that.
Momentary Glimpse is just like the cantrip Guidance except that Momentary Glimpse Is a supernatural ability instead of a spell, gives a +2 insight bonus instead of a +1 competence bonus, could be applied to Armor Class instead, and has a much shorter duration during which it can be applied.
Three times as strong as a cantrip is awfully weak for a revelation, so I was mystified why it required a limit of once per day, expanding to twice a day at fifth level, etc. By examining other revelations, I learned that that limit is actually pretty standard for revelations, whether they need it or not.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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James Risner ... continued the speculation on the rare cases
Works only this round as opposed to next round
Sorry, my read of it was activate this round, use benefit next round.
Your current understanding is that it only works the round used I think is wrong. Can you elaborate why you think that is how it works?
1st round: Use standard action (have move & swift to play with).
2nd round: Act as normal, but get a bonus on some singular roll or a bonus to your AC until the start of your "next" turn.
3rd round: Effect on AC ends right before your turn begins. If you didn't use the bonus last round you lose it.
Not quite sure how this is problematic as written, again.
Sorry, my read of it was activate this round, use benefit next round.
Your current understanding is that it only works the round used I think is wrong. Can you elaborate why you think that is how it works?
The full round is defined in the Core Rulebook in Chapter 8, Combat, under the heading The Combat Round.
When the rules refer to a full round, they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
Momentary Glimpse says, "On the round after you use this ability,...". This is unusual phrasing. The usual phrasing for duration of an activated revelation says, "For 1 round," or "For a number of rounds equal to ...." Since a typical round starts on a turn and ends before the matching turn on the next combat round, people have interpreted the "after" as a delayed start on the ability to make it begin during the next combat round on the oracle's turn, becasue as seebs explains:
Most of those things, you can't do in the round when you use the ability, because you just used your standard action. But you could do them the round after you use it.
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But seebs' explanation is wrong. Saving throws, skill checks, and Armor Class are often used outside of a player character's standard and full-round actions. Even the attack roll could be made as an attack of opportunity. The round after the standard action for the Momentary Glimpse is the usual round that begins after the standard action and ends at the beginning of the oracle's next turn.
But we don't want to interpret a weak ability as even weaker; therefore, we assume that the designers want the oracle to have a standard action available during the duration to make a planned attack roll or skill check. The word "usually" in the definition of full round gives us a little wiggle room. There are three simple possibilities: (1) The word "after" does not simply mean after the standard action, it means the new round after the current round, or (2) the round starts immediately and ends at the beginning of the next turn, and that round does not have a standard action in which to use the +2 insight bonus, or (3) the round starts immediately and lasts a little longer than usual to encompass the standard action in the next turn.
Explanation (2) is the one that best fits the rules as written. If Momentary Glimpse cost a swift action instead of a standard action or lasted longer than one round, we would all use that interpretation.
I favor explanation (3) over explanation (1) for three reasons. First, it fits the flavor text of the ability better: the "immediate future" begins immediately. Second, this interpretation is easier to track: instead of a delay and then remembering to use the +2 insight bonus before the end of the duration, we only have to remember to use the +2 insight bonus before the end of the duration. Third, it is slightly more useful to the player. Under explanation (1) the first thing the player character can use the +2 insight bonus for is the attack roll or skill check in his or her standard action. This means it will almost never be available for the saving throw that happens afterwards as the enemy wizard casts a spell, unless the player has exceptionally good foresight. Also, it is good for enhancing Armor Class without delay. A one-turn delay on Armor Class could be fatal.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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people have interpreted the "after" as a delayed start on the ability to make it begin during the next combat round
It does start the round after. There are 14 examples of the use "round after" in the Core:
A spell that takes one round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell.
Round 1: You take a standard.
Round 2: Just before you start the turn you have Momentary Glimpse. You do whatever you want and get +2 to what you want.