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continuing a discussion brought up in the Old Gods thread
listed in a table of gods in the Core Rulebook, The Inner
Sea World Guide, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Gods and
Magic, or any other source listed as an official Additional
Resource. Characters may elect to worship an evil god,
but must always be within one alignment step of their
chosen deity. For clerics, this is an especially important
choice, since the deity’s alignment determines whether
the cleric channels positive or negative energy, a decision
with significant tactical implications for the cleric and
her allies. Clerics, inquisitors, paladins, cavaliers of the
order of the star, and samurai of the order of the star must
choose a deity as all classes in Golarion that receive spells
and abilities from a specific divine source receive their
powers from a deity. Druids, oracles, and rangers are
the exception to this rule. The list is not exhaustive, and
divine spellcasters of any future classes whose sources are
added as additional resources to the Pathfinder Society
Organized Play campaign will be required to choose a
deity unless otherwise specified. Otherwise, characters
who do not receive powers from a divine source may
choose to be atheists or to have no deity at all.
I understand the need for a defined set of what's legal for Divine classes to worship, as presented in the PFS Guide. It provides choices to players about how they can build their characters that still fit within the scope of pathfinder society. My Cleric can't worship Lissala, and I can't be a devotee of the Old Gods and draw on divine power in Pathfinder Society play.
That said, for character classes that don't have a divine spark, the fighter, the rogue, the monk. Who or What a player places his faith in shouldn't be restricted, as the current wording on faiths is limited in the Guidebook.
Its currently feeling a bit "worship only these, or worship nothing." as your only choices.
What about playing a non-atheist character that still carries a momento of his parents, a holy symbol of Aroden or something.
I'd like a little more freedom of religion for my characters. A freedom to choose what to worship, when it has no ties to game mechanics. Is that too much to ask?
I personally think a non-deity you show devotion to is just a false idol and isn't precluded by the wording in the PFS Guide. just like you can have devotion to a particular Ruler in Golarion, roleplay it, and still be a Pathfinder. Worshipping an idol like Lissala right now would be more about , "what if they're a double agent working against us?" and i could see, in game, characters that do worship her, not being admitted into society, or being actively expelled.
Some have suggested though that worshipping a non-standard deity like Aroden would get you called out by some GMs. What the effect of this would be , or the repercussions, boggle my mind. Because I can't imagine a GM saying "choose your god! now! or you're not playing!"
the PFS FAQ leads to this as the updated list of what are the allowed deities in pathfinder society.
I don't even see an entry for the Green Faith. So as a Druid or Ranger, if you want to worship any deity, are you required to choose from the listed deities, not allowed to worship the Green Faith, as presented in the Inner Sea World Guide?
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You can choose to venerate whomever you want. Be it one, two, several, the pantheon, a philosophy, or your cat. You can choose to venerate anything, and make it more than one step removed from your alignment.
But in PFS the term worship is a mechanical term defining the relationship between a deity and their followers that could provide a mechanical benefit. For sake of game balance and consistency with setting integrity, you can't get a mechanical benefit unless the deity considers you a worshiper.
This stops folks from creating a paladin, saying they are a paladin of goodness, then getting a trait or spell or some other benefit of say Rovagug.
So in other words, there is a difference between worship and venerate in game mechanics terms. Venerate whomever you want. But deities only accept worshipers who are one step removed or of the same alignment.
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You can choose to venerate whomever you want. Be it one, two, several, the pantheon, a philosophy, or your cat. You can choose to venerate anything, and make it more than one step removed from your alignment.
This is a good answer Andrew, and that I think "Venerate" would fall into the have no deity at all part of the rule in PFS.
You can "admire"/"Venerate" all the deities you want, but you can't gain anything "Mechanical" from it and that would fit into you actual don't worship a deity at all.
The problem comes is when they state they actively worship a non-allowed deity of Golarion or one they made up on their own. That is not allowed.
As an example
You can say I admire my Ancestors, what you can't Say is I Worship my Ancestors and that is my Faith.
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One thing I would like to see is opening up the the Philosophies.
In the Past the PFS Leadership associated a Philosophy as the same as choosing a deity so they were not allowed.
IMO they are not the same and believing in a Philosophy does not exclude from worshiping a deity. In fact it even states that in the Inner Sea World Guide.
...Clerics who follow a philosophy must select a patron deity among the philosophy’s associated religions (they gain no additional benefits from adherence to a philosophy)...
For the most part, adherence to a philosophy does not preclude membership in another organization, prestige class, or religion, although there are certain implications in most philosophies that make some choices untenable—you wouldn’t expect to ever see a diabolist priest of Desna, for example.
I would Love to see Mike open up Philosophies, though there are a few that should not be allowed due to not working as a Pathfinder.
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The problem comes is when they state they actively worship a non-allowed deity of Golarion or one they made up on their own. That is not allowed.
As an example
You can say I admire my Ancestors, what you can't Say is I Worship my Ancestors and that is my Faith.
The fact that "worship" is both an actual English word that describes a character's actions towards a deity which is potentially not on the special PFS list as well as a quasi-technical rules term for deriving a mechanical benefit for having one god rather than another on your character sheet. Preventing people from using the the latter sense is what the additional resources rules do. Why in the world would you want to extend that prohibition to the first sense. What compelling reason is there (beyond the one or two corner cases that I have seen where worship of a specific god is called out in a Scenario) to come down on people for their fluff. The answer is none. Doing that only worsens the "lowest common denominator" problem that PFS has wrt to fluff and RP in the first place.
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The fact that "worship" is both an actual English word that describes a character's actions towards a deity which is potentially not on the special PFS list as well as a quasi-technical rules term for deriving a mechanical benefit for having one god rather than another on your character sheet. Preventing people from using the the latter sense is what the additional resources rules do. Why in the world would you want to extend that prohibition to the first sense. What compelling reason is there (beyond the one or two corner cases that I have seen where worship of a specific god is called out in a Scenario) to come down on people for their fluff. The answer is none. Doing that only worsens the "lowest common denominator" problem that PFS has wrt to fluff and RP in the first place.
Don't ask me, ask Mike. I don't make the rules I as a GM am just responsible for enforcing the rules.
in PFS It is not a players place to assume or ask GM not enforce a rule. But it is their place to ask for that rule to be changed.
Edit: In other words Blame Mike He deserves all the blame he gets... ;)
Edit Edit: Ok, I will grudgingly admit he deserves all the accolades too.. ;)
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The fact that "worship" is both an actual English word that describes a character's actions towards a deity which is potentially not on the special PFS list as well as a quasi-technical rules term for deriving a mechanical benefit for having one god rather than another on your character sheet. Preventing people from using the the latter sense is what the additional resources rules do. Why in the world would you want to extend that prohibition to the first sense. What compelling reason is there (beyond the one or two corner cases that I have seen where worship of a specific god is called out in a Scenario) to come down on people for their fluff. The answer is none. Doing that only worsens the "lowest common denominator" problem that PFS has wrt to fluff and RP in the first place.Don't ask me, ask Mike. I don't make the rules I as a GM am just responsible for enforcing the rules.
It is not a players place to assume or ask GM not enforce a rule. But it is their place to ask for that rule to be changed.
I am asking you because I am fairly certain that you are misinterpreting the rule that the leadership made up and I hope that you will reconsider the way that you interpret it for the reasons I just said.
EDIT: This is because I took the same reading of your previous statements as Vincent did when he started this thread. I see a small amount of evidence that I might be mistaken about your interpretation though so please tell me if I am wrong.
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I am asking you because I am fairly certain that you are misinterpreting the rule that the leadership made up and I hope that you will reconsider the way that you interpret it for the reasons I just said.
Then you need to be more clear, because from How I am reading your posts I don't see any misinterpretation on my part, just on yours.
You seem to think that anyone (Except the classes that require a deity) can pick any deity for worship, when it clearly states in the guide you can't. So Most likely that is not what you are saying, so what are you saying?
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You can "admire"/"Venerate" all the deities you want, but you can't gain anything "Mechanical" from it and that would fit into you actual don't worship a deity at all.*headscratch* I can't see the difference between that and what i said (and you objected to)
I have no idea, Once I realized you were mis-intepreting my posts, I kind of started ignoring you sorry. That was not done maliciously just I found answering some of the post counter productive for myself. Going back over them now.
But from what I see you used the Term Worshiping in your example for Banjo the Clown which to me is actively deciding to have Banjo the Clown as your faith and not just claiming/lie to deceive or liking some things about Banjo The Clown.
Your statement to me was the person decided to actively elected to worship Banjo the Clown which is not allowed according to the Guide.
And looking at your other post, You can't decide to Pick something that is not Real as an active worship. What in the rules makes you think that?
There is a difference between actively worshiping something as your faith and admiring a dead faith or idea. One is ruled over by the guide, the other is not.
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I am asking you because I am fairly certain that you are misinterpreting the rule that the leadership made up and I hope that you will reconsider the way that you interpret it for the reasons I just said.Then you need to be more clear, because from How I am reading your posts I don't see any misinterpretation on my part, just on yours.
You seem to think that anyone (Except the classes that require a deity) can pick any deity for worship, when it clearly states in the guide you can't. So Most likely that is not what you are saying, so what are you saying?
I am saying that as long as you are not one of the classes required by PFS rules to pick a deity then yes you can write whatever you want in the god slot of your character sheet. Now it is possible that you would not be eligible to use that deity's traits or special magic item powers if your deity is not allowed in PFS or if you are not of the appropriate alignment. But the difference is that the first part is fluff and the second part is crunch.
I know that in-world logic is not as applicable in PFS as in a real campaign but on Golarion do they really bounce you out of church if you are not one alignment step away from the god whose church it is? Does the in-world Pathfinder Society actually fire you if you worship a god that is not on their list? The answer is no because the PFS organized play campaign house rules are arbitrary, they have no foundation in anything in-world about Golarion. Therefore they do not effect fluff. What I was reacting badly to specifically in your posts was that you feel that the use of the word "worship" to describe a fluff/RP relationship between your character and a deity was not allowed in PFS and that somehow using the magic words of "venerate" or "admire" made a distinction without a difference that was allowed in PFS.
And I also of the opinion that my character gets to have their fluff without any condescending b+&~~$@* from other players/the DM about how they are "deluded" or "only think that they have" whatever fluff option you think is illegal in PFS.
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You can choose to venerate whomever you want. Be it one, two, several, the pantheon, a philosophy, or your cat. You can choose to venerate anything, and make it more than one step removed from your alignment.This is a good answer Andrew, and that I think "Venerate" would fall into the have no deity at all part of the rule in PFS.
You can "admire"/"Venerate" all the deities you want, but you can't gain anything "Mechanical" from it and that would fit into you actual don't worship a deity at all.
The problem comes is when they state they actively worship a non-allowed deity of Golarion or one they made up on their own. That is not allowed.
As an example
You can say I admire my Ancestors, what you can't Say is I Worship my Ancestors and that is my Faith.
No one is trying to gain anything mechanical from it!!!
We're strictly talking non-divine characters. No clerics, no inquisitor , no paladin etc.If you take a faith trait for your character, you should be part of their clergy, that's crunch, not fluff.
The important deity restrictions only exist for characters that need to choose a deity.
@Dragonmoon, you're causing most of this misinterpretation. You're using capital words as if they're game terms when they're not, leading to a lot of misinterpretation, then harping that you're just the messenger. You can't advocate for them one way, and then say its not your fault.
Worship
Venerate
These are interchangeable words.
Edit: And on Razmir, from what I remember off the top of my head about the Razmir Priest, those with the Razmir Archetype are just claiming falsely that they worship Razmir. They know he is not an Actual God and purposely try to lie to others to convince them otherwise. So that would fall into the "Claiming" but not Actual category.
But there's plenty of people on Golarion that legitimately think Razmir is a deity, and legitimately worship him. Laymen with no divine levels: farmers, townsfolk. If you asked them who they worshipped, they'd say Razmir, the living god. How is that any different for a PC? There are churches, doctrines, texts, supporting Razmir. It's largely out of character knowledge that he's a fake, that taints our view of his "clergy".
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I have no idea, Once I realized you were mis-intepreting my posts, I kind of started ignoring you sorry. That was not done maliciously just I found answering some of the post counter productive for myself. Going back over them now.
Everyone seems to be mis interpreting it the same way.
My dumb as a post sorcerer prays to Aroden. He has an Aroden holy symbol. When he activates his wand of CLW or Bless with UMD he whaps the bottom of the wand like a ketchup bottle "Come on Aroden I know you're with me..."
What he can't do is take the otherwise legal religion trait "Devotee of a dead god"
You can choose to venerate whomever you want. Be it one, two, several, the pantheon, a philosophy, or your cat.
Mrs. Snuggles the cat, LE goddess of tyranny and semi-adorable blood thirst, is always happy to accept new followers. Sadly she has no domains or feats or traits or benefits to give... yet.
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You can choose to venerate whomever you want. Be it one, two, several, the pantheon, a philosophy, or your cat. You can choose to venerate anything, and make it more than one step removed from your alignment.This is a good answer Andrew, and that I think "Venerate" would fall into the have no deity at all part of the rule in PFS.
You can "admire"/"Venerate" all the deities you want, but you can't gain anything "Mechanical" from it and that would fit into you actual don't worship a deity at all.
The problem comes is when they state they actively worship a non-allowed deity of Golarion or one they made up on their own. That is not allowed.
As an example
You can say I admire my Ancestors, what you can't Say is I Worship my Ancestors and that is my Faith.
No one is trying to gain anything mechanical from it!!!
We're strictly talking non-divine characters. No clerics, no inquisitor , no paladin etc.If you take a faith trait for your character, you should be part of their clergy, that's crunch, not fluff.
The important deity restrictions only exist for characters that need to choose a deity.
@Dragonmoon, you're causing most of this misinterpretation. You're using capital words as if they're game terms when they're not, leading to a lot of misinterpretation, then harping that you're just the messenger. You can't advocate for them one way, and then say its not your fault.
Worship
VenerateThese are interchangeable words.
Edit: And on Razmir, from what I remember off the top of my head about the Razmir Priest, those with the Razmir Archetype are just claiming falsely that they worship Razmir. They know he is not an Actual God and purposely try to lie to others to convince them otherwise. So that would fall into the "Claiming" but not Actual category.But there's plenty of people on Golarion that legitimately think Razmir is a deity, and legitimately worship him. Laymen with no divine...
There are mechanical benefits from using the word worship. The benefits are that you get access to certain mechanical things like traits, feats, and spells that you can't take without declaring a deity to worship.
Let's not get hung up with on synonyms. In game terms worship and any synonym for worship do not mean the same thing.
Just like module and scenario are synonyms but in game terms mean something different.