Ok, so I'm planning on running Rise of the RuneLords for my gaming group starting in a month or so probably, however, I have a few questions that I'm hoping some of you can help answer. There may be a few spoilerish things mentioned...so a warning now to gamers planning on playing. Unfortunately I have no idea how to use the spoiler button.
One of my immediate questions is in regard to the awarding of XP and leveling. My plan is to level the group in accordance with the recommendation of where to level them in the guide of the Anniversary Edition. However, after completely reading through Burnt Offerings it feels like it's leveling extremely fast. I agree with where it says to up the characters to second level...they go through quite a few scenarios to get to that point, including a bevy of additional roleplay opportunities and minor side quests, however, it is after that that it feels a bit rushed to me.
If I had to place them at third level...I'd almost do it after the taking down of a certain goblin chieftain...yet it recommends to do it well before then. Has anyone else felt that the leveling is a bit too fast paced based solely on the AP content? (I tend to prefer to award xp and leveling based on the feel and pace of the game rather than true xp based on a per monster killed basis).
Another question I have is about magic items and the purchase there of. I believe I read that the town has an 800gp limit...which of course severely limits the possible items to be bought to potions and a low level wand or two. However, if this is supposed to go to fourth level it seems like a standard character should have a magic weapon and armor potentially by that point. Am I wrong in that assumption? How have some of you dealt with this in past if I may ask for advice on the subject?
My final question deals with my particular party of players. I'm the real roleplayer of the group...so with me GM'ing...it might be hard to lengthen sessions and to flush things out with nice and fun roleplay opportunities. I'm curious if anyone can point me to some nice threads or critiques on how to perhaps bring in more roleplay moments outside the Boar Hunt and the enthralled daughter as well as perhaps some nice side custom side quests to add to the AP that could alleviate my leveling fears.
As a whole, several members of the group tend to the kill move on kill joy of things without me there to force our regular GM into roleplay. So I'd like to be able to toss in some interesting optional stuff just in case I can't get them to slow the pace of play with their own desire to roleplay. Sorry for the length, and thank you ahead of time for all helpful answers.
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There is a great thread about the Swallowtail Festival which opens a whole slew of roleplaying opportunities.
I would suggest finding a way to make this campaign yours. For example, one GM took this AP and mashed in a bit of Kingmaker, using little mini-jobs (I think it was Greycloak that did that), whereas I made my PCs heroes of ancient Thassilon that were imprisoned in the prisons of Kaer Maga (drained back to 1st level by some Intellect Devourer-type creature that starved after their experiences and memories were all but gone...)
So find something that you want to do that will make your RotRL memorable to you and your players.
Read through the Sandpoint town appendix. There are a slew of NPCs that you can introduce for all kinds of roleplaying opportunities. What you cannot foresee is who will become attached to who... I had one group get super attached to the Hagfish, while another group was inevitably drawn to the Rusty Dragon. One PC was drawn to the House of Blue Stones, and another started a relationship with the street sweeper half-orc! You never know...
As for the marketplace, a mere two day's travel takes them to Magnimar, the largest marketplace in all of Varisia! If they need something, you can have them go there. However, that does not stop you from introducing specialists that may be able to produce higher quality items once in a while.
Well, you already introduced yourself to me on my campaign thread (thanks!), so I know you're reading my thread. I also really like Useplanb's and Gluttony's threads. This isn't a critique of anyone else's thread; those are the only two I've read end-to-end. If Misroi or Haldir have threads, they are also fantastic contributors.
LEVELING: Our Carrion Crown GM (Shiro's player) gave up on XP in module 1, and just started leveling us up at the indicated points in the AP. This worked so well that I started doing it in RotRL and Raesh's player is doing it for Second Darkness.
- PROs: No one has to track XP, and players are at the expected levels for their encounters
- CONs: You no longer have the leeway to grant extra XP for extra-cool roleplaying, and if you have anything other than a group of 4 PCs on a 15-point build, the levels won't be as appropriate as expected
WHERE TO LEVEL: I haven't had an issue going with the AP's recommendation. Most AP fights are walkovers if the PCs are lucky or use good tactics, but a surprising number can be TPKs if they're just a "kick in the door and kick ***" kind of group. I agree that the level-up should probably have come after the chieftan, but remember that a party marching in there and setting off the alarm would cause all the goblins to gather at once for a CR-through-the-roof encounter. Monsters aren't static; they react according to what the party does.
MAGIC ITEMS: Make them travel to Magnimar. It makes for good roleplaying, and slows down their advancement. Perhaps the AP designed their levels to be higher to make up for the lack of any really kick-butt magic items until they get there.
Good luck! And as always, do a campaign journal or GM thread!
Thanks for the advice. I have some guidebooks on the way for Varisia and Magnimar that I hope will give me more background. I wasn't initially aware just how far away the city was to know if it was viable to get gear from there in a way that didn't take weeks/months.
I'm planning on completely fleshing out Sandpoint, printing out items of interest for major establishments, NPCs etc...my only fear is my group will ignore all that and tap there foot impatiently for the next plothook to point them to the Glassworks, followed by Wrath, followed by Thistletop etc, etc. I don't want them to be pulled along in such a linear fashion....while at the same time fearing that that is exactly what they'll try to force it into to. Hence my desire to arm myself with plenty of side quest opportunities if they try to give roleplaying the finger in favor of Hulk Smash.
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Oh, "Varisia, Birthplace of Legends" also has the most gorgeous map of Varisia! I want it for my wallpaper (my REAL wallpaper, not my computer)!
The Guide to Magnimar was absolutely invaluable to me in turning it into something more than, "The place we go to raise our dead and buy big-ticket items."
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LEVELING: Our Carrion Crown GM (Shiro's player) gave up on XP in module 1, and just started leveling us up at the indicated points in the AP. This worked so well that I started doing it in RotRL and Raesh's player is doing it for Second Darkness.
- PROs: No one has to track XP, and players are at the expected levels for their encounters
- CONs: You no longer have the leeway to grant extra XP for extra-cool roleplaying, and if you have anything other than a group of 4 PCs on a 15-point build, the levels won't be as appropriate as expected
About this, I thought about it a lot before I started running this AP again.
What I decided is that I am using a simplified version of the relationship rules and offer boons similar to the ones introduced in the GMG.
I've actually slowed down the leveling just a little bit, but still keep pretty close.
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Oh, "Varisia, Birthplace of Legends" also has the most gorgeous map of Varisia! I want it for my wallpaper (my REAL wallpaper, not my computer)!
The Guide to Magnimar was absolutely invaluable to me in turning it into something more than, "The place we go to raise our dead and buy big-ticket items."
Me too buddy! I want that map across my entire bedroom wall!!! >.<
Magnimar is two days journey away (I believe there's a small town between the two locales). To be honest, the PCs shouldn't have access to money for magic items 'til they clear out Thistletop. By that time they may very well have some items they want to keep. The one exception is the dagger that a certain tiny-sized oracle has in a certain dungeon the PCs will go into fairly quickly. But to be honest, I'm not sure it's worth 4,000 gold (or 4.8K if someone took the Campaign Merchant Trait) as it's almost a curiosity and some groups are likely to want to keep it.
Use Hero Points. Further, I'd recommend having the "stay alive" feature that needs 2 Hero Points to only cost 1 Hero Point as otherwise players never bother using them.
As others have mentioned there are some superb threads out there on the Sandpoint Festival, including having the party members participate in events. Go for it! Have lots of fun! Honestly, it'll help the group bond with the town better and encourage roleplaying. :)
Finally, consider looking into a program like Hero Labs. Hero Labs itself is great but will cost money (though there have been people coding it so that every monster is already statted with treasure and everything). There may be some free sites out there as well. Also, a map-program like roll20.net is quite handy as knowing WHERE your PCs are at all times... and where the enemies are... will make your game much easier for you, and help speed things along. Seriously, I'm likely to discontinue my Pawn subscription and only buy the PDFs from now on as roll20 is much more effective than drawing out the maps. ^^;;
Oh, but Tangent101! What about the cat eating the minis? Cats can't eat digital minis!
(We've tried dipping the minis in brie and pate to fend off the cats, but it doesn't seem to work. Hmmm... maybe catnip...)
I don't own a cat as two of my friends are deathly allergic. The plush fox who's my sidekick and the familiar of one of the NPCs can always pounce the minis, but it never actually eats any. ;)
Hah, thanks for the great advice. And the Varisia Birthplace of Legends is indeed the other book I have on order. I've looked into one of the threads that contains all of the festival games created by people and the prizes...I'm hoping to incorporate a number of those and more I can think of..assuming I can convince my gamers to play them :).
I imagine overall I'm underestimating the capability of everyone without me combined with not comprehending just how long it will take them to complete things. At first glance I was even wondering if my group could complete the entire AP in only 3-4 sessions...and our sessions are only 3-4 hours tops. They can on occasion pin their ears back and trudge forward.
I tend not to GM...at all. So I want the game to go well. I'm hoping I can convince someone to run an AP or other game with me so that we can tag in and out...when we complete one of the books...I can get a mini break and do some gaming myself. When they finish a book, we hop back into my campaign.
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I've been spending more time roleplaying in Sandpoint than doing the 'official quests' parts. The feedback from the players has been 'more roleplaying!'. I suggest really taking the time to get your players feeling a part of the town, it gives the whole AP more of a purpose.
For the NPCs I assembled a reference guide to make interactions with them smoother. Here's a link to it: Sandpoint NPC list
Nobody's Home - Would you mind helping me out with a link to UseplanB and Gluttony's threads if you ever have time? Still very new to the boards and I'm not quite certain where everything lies nor how to easily refine any kind of search.
Apparently my game is going to be delayed...which can be a very good thing for better prep. I have to wait for a slot to open up in our regular gaming schedule...talking to the current GMs looks like that will most likely be closer to the end of the year. So I have plenty of time to get all my ducks in a row so to speak.
Right now I'm just trying to figure out point buy vs standard 4d6 rolling. I have no problem bumping up monsters etc as I know the books are designed for 4 players 15 point buy...we currently have 5 players so I'll already be adjusting slightly. I know as a whole they probably prefer rolling, I just worry about the incredibly lucky roll vs the incredibly unlucky roll and the latter refusing to roll again and making a poor character by comparison. This stuff is never easy, heh.
OK. Let me root around. Useplanb's still in the RotRL section, as he's still regularly posting, but if you stop posting for a while you get shunted off to the "campaigns" section, where no one ever reads you again. (One of the reasons Leilani is posting every week, much to the chagrin of the other players trying to keep up.)
A worthwhile thread on one of the early boss fights.
An awesome thread started by Gluttony on changes you might want to make.
Gluttony's thread.
Those are the ones I frequently troll for tips. I'm sure I've missed others, but I trust most of the posters here to help me out. Tangent101 reads a LOT of threads, so I'm hoping he's seen some other good ones.
My experience on the boards is that the AP-specific boards are incredibly friendly and supportive. The Advice and Rules boards? More of a place to go argue...
Oh, level-ups are indeed fast with this one. I ran it for my group in 22 sessions (admittedly, that's pretty fast), and note that there are 16 level-ups (the final battle might have made them level 18, but the game ended, so I didn't tally XP). So yes, lots of leveling up.
I recommend the approach where you level where the AP says to, though deviate from it so the level-up happens at the end of your session if you want there to be no interruptions. I granted XP, and it ended up being almost exactly aligned with the books expectations. I did it as group XP, though, no individual rewards. (The reward in doing something cool is the fact you did something cool, right?)
As for magic items, don't worry about that so much. There is lots of treasure in this AP, including magic items, and there is plenty of time to head down to Magnimar or another city to purchase items that Sandpoint won't have.
(spoiler button, by the way is: [ s p o i l e r ] T e x t h e r e [ / s p o i l e r ] (just without the spaces between each letter -- under the post editor, there is "How to format your text" and a button called "Show" -- click "Show").
For roleplaying, there are few opportunities for meaningful RP in this, IMO. (Well, what I mean is, good, lengthy conversations.) I didn't get to experience it as a player, so I can't truly speak to that, however. But since you're the GM, and you enjoy RP, I think two things result from this: 1) you can add good flavor to the villains, really make them memorable, and 2) RPing the NPCs helps the players get into the RP mood a little better, I think.
Cool. Thanks for the threads and info, as well as the spoiler button and how it works.
Heh, I love arguing...but I'm definitely here for fun and information, so don't worry I'll be avoiding the rule threads. Everyone has their own take and the occasional house rule mix in. I'll do my best to be active enough on several threads that when the time comes I'll be able to post a journal of how the games going so that those interested can read along.
I'm curious about character background story that people have used or have seen to help tie characters into Sandpoint. AKA...why they were there to begin with coupled with keeping them invested in Sandpoint and the area as a whole.
There's always the opening of the cathedral angle..especially considering that it is home to several gods for worship. It seems that you can easily tie that into any clerical or paladin arch for why they're in Sandpoint and why they might want to stick around and invest in time there. I've also thought about bringing in the Pathfinder Society and/or Aspix Consortium angle. With Varisia opening up as an exploration hub with ancient Thessalonian ruins and history as a main arch in the AP it seemed like tying that in for some character backgrounds could help with a PC's desire to make Sandpoint an ongoing base of operation.
Basically I'd like my players to be able to create any kind of background for their characters that they choose...yet be able to work with them and mold some mini-arcs for reasonings why they would be in Sandpoint to begin with and why they'd want to stay outside of an obligation to "help". Am I simply over thinking things here due to not being someone who has GM'd much at all over the years?
I had one player living there, one travel there for the cathedral, a third travel there on business (and because he was a bastard scion of the Scarnettis and hated their guts), and the GMPC go there because the caravan she joined ended up there.
Now you're running into the "art" of GM'ing. You've read my PC's backgrounds. The information given to me by each PC before I started writing those was:
Raesh: I want to be a drow paladin who was rescued by a paladin of Sarenrae, redeemed, and raised as a paladin.
Shiro: I'm the son of a fairly wealthy merchant in a distant land, but I want to be a bard, and my mother and father are unhappy with my decision; in fact, my father disowned me, but my siblings still like me. I make my living playing in local taverns.
Hi: I have no idea. Where do gnome sorcerers come from?
So I sat down and pondered each PC in turn:
Where is there a large temple of Sarenrae? Absalom! OK, what could have happened 100 years ago that would put a baby drow into the hands of a paladin of Sarenrae? A drow attack and the resulting incursion into their caves! Now, why is she being sent thousands of miles away? Because she's on the outs with the current high cleric! Voila! Raesh's background was done.
Shiro's was a bit harder: I had to come up with a series of events that brought him to Absalom so I could hook him up with Raesh and they could travel to Sandpoint together. I knew the player would go along with me if I suggested that Shiro was curious about Raesh, so once he hit Absalom I was set.
For Hi, I was very familiar with Varisia, so I made him the son of an "eccentric" fireworks maker who traveled with the Varisian caravans.
So the process was:
(1) What backgrounds do the players give me?
(2) How do I modify/play with those backgrounds to get them to Sandpoint?
(3) Sit down and talk with the player about what they like about your "improved" background, and what they'd like you to change.
I'm pointing Shiro to this thread, as he's a MUCH more experienced GM than me, and he wanted to chime in...
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Whether they are from there or not, make Sandpoint appealing. You have lots of opportunities with the Swallowtail Festival. Introduce NPCs, and see which ones the PCs gravitate to, then you may slowly get them vested in the town. You really want them to come back again and again, so this should be a great priority.
Yea...I'm sure I'm just over thinking things being the first game I've run in years and years. I just want it to flow well at the start is all. I suppose it's all fairly moot until I actually get people to sit down and begin thinking about there characters.
We have a Shoanti barbarian who lost a bet and has to take the hagfish challenge. They just didn't tell him beforehand he had to travel across Varisia to get there.
We have a gnome sorceress who got drunk in Whistledown and ended up on the boat with the barbarian. Then decided to tag along.
We have a cleric of Milani who has been send to Sandpoint to petition for Milani to be represented at the new cathedral.
We have a bard from Riddleport on the run after stealing a Sidehedron medallion from the cyphermages in Riddleport. She was performing at a party for them. She jumped on the first boat out, which just happened to be headed to Sandpoint.
And we have a halfling rogue from Magnimar who has been sent by his 'mentor' to investigate the activities of the brotherhood of the seven in Sandpoint. The brotherhood have been causing problems in Magnimar and apparently have set eyes on Sandpoint too.
Ok, so I'm planning on running Rise of the RuneLords for my gaming group starting in a month or so probably, however, I have a few questions that I'm hoping some of you can help answer. There may be a few spoilerish things mentioned...so a warning now to gamers planning on playing. Unfortunately I have no idea how to use the spoiler button.
One of my immediate questions is in regard to the awarding of XP and leveling. My plan is to level the group in accordance with the recommendation of where to level them in the guide of the Anniversary Edition. However, after completely reading through Burnt Offerings it feels like it's leveling extremely fast. I agree with where it says to up the characters to second level...they go through quite a few scenarios to get to that point, including a bevy of additional roleplay opportunities and minor side quests, however, it is after that that it feels a bit rushed to me.
If I had to place them at third level...I'd almost do it after the taking down of a certain goblin chieftain...yet it recommends to do it well before then. Has anyone else felt that the leveling is a bit too fast paced based solely on the AP content? (I tend to prefer to award xp and leveling based on the feel and pace of the game rather than true xp based on a per monster killed basis).
Another question I have is about magic items and the purchase there of. I believe I read that the town has an 800gp limit...which of course severely limits the possible items to be bought to potions and a low level wand or two. However, if this is supposed to go to fourth level it seems like a standard character should have a magic weapon and armor potentially by that point. Am I wrong in that assumption? How have some of you dealt with this in past if I may ask for advice on the subject?
My final question deals with my particular party of players. I'm the real roleplayer of the group...so with me GM'ing...it might be hard to lengthen sessions and to flush things out with nice and fun roleplay opportunities....
I'm now in the final stages of the Skinsaw Murders, and I ran with the straight awards for what they killed in the first one. I was no where near 3rd at the point the story would have them head out to deal with the Goblins. So I took WBG and ran it in reverse prior to them going North. I simply had the goblins start lobbing rockets at Sandpoint and the party chased them down. That extra goblin tribe got them to third so they could head north.
To your second point take the lead. As you build the histories give them people in their lives that live in sandpoint. Then if they're missing something or not sure how to explore the enviornemtnt have their mentor/parent/buddy/boss/friend lead them into it. These NPC's aren't taking part in the main part of the adventure, but their a good tool to help bring the color in that your party might not be able to do. Let your NPC start the ball rolling, and see if the party picks up on it. Is it perfect, no, but better to help a bit and the party enjoy it, than let them flounder and become frustrated.
Same thing with critical but easily learned info, if the players aren't picking up on it have them roll a knowledge check and give it to the one that got the highest. Of if it's so general a bit of knowledge as Bob sells stolen items you might just tell them, the players can't know everything about the setting that their characters would know so you're simply brining them up to the speed the character would be at.
Hi Kayland!
I saw your post over in NobodysHome's RotRL campaign thread. It's great to hear that you are setting up to run for folks. I hope you will grace us with a writeup of your experience as it unfolds. :)
I've been a GM for quite a few decades. You have asked a few very important questions in this thread and gotten some excellent answers. I'd love to say there is one "end all be all" way to setup a campaign for your players but in my experience it really is something that needs be tailored to each group.
I've had groups that treated the campaign like a chess game. They were only interested in the combat, always wanted miniatures, hex maps and lots of dice rolling. The game didn't begin until the combat started and the tiny bit of talk they did with NPCs was at best to point them to the next fight.
Other groups loved the NPC interaction and wanted to have a serious role playing game. They dreaded rolling initiative, hated miniatures (other than to have a nicely painted one to show what "they" looked like)... and begged for a description of the room over a hex/square map every time.
The interesting thing for me is that BOTH of those groups LOVED their games and wanted to play them constantly. My take-away from that was; run the game the players like, so long as you enjoy running that kind of game and everyone is happy.
On to your questions... and I'll be sure to preface my remarks with, your mileage may vary; everyone has a best way and not everyone (or even two people) necessarily agree.
How to level up characters? What pace is good?
I'll tell you, I find reading the little snippet at the start of the AP and leveling them as it says they should level is excellent pacing and removes the need for EXP tracking. It also frees the characters/players to act as they wish as far as combat goes. They may choose to talk their way through something, or fight, or avoid as they feel is needed with no fear the AP writers forgot to add exp for some forms of resolution. (I like the idea of extra incentives for good role play - or great combat tactics - in some form as suggested previously in this thread.) This ends up being very nice when you have a player who plays "sometimes" or a group that is larger or smaller than indicated. Scale the fights as you feel they need be scaled and then don't worry about the numbers! This has an added benefit that the AP writers (and play-testers) have the levels set to match the encounters AND the loot given by them. I noticed that my Carrion Crown game had very little loot early on and leveled much differently than the RotRL AP that NobodysHome ran. But the gear and level of the PCs matched the encounters very well in each AP!
How do you get your PCs tied into the AP?
The easiest answer is the AP traits that are available to the players. These traits seem to give a great tie in for the character with an added benefit for the character so the player likes to take them. The RotRL AP has quite a few good ones for Sandpoint (many dealing with the theater there or the temple / holiday). I like to start with those as both of my "kinds" of players like to take them. I wouldn't over think it too much... if the players look at the traits and take one they are setup to fit in (and have a background reason to!). If you want even more detailed backgrounds you can expand on that central idea or allow other traits that you design to fit your game world and the AP.
The important thing is to realize that most players will give you a ton of slack in starting things up; but you have to earn their continued good graces by making the NPCs and the "place" interesting. For the combat group that means they may need a place to do a bar brawl now and then and they want to earn recognition as the baddest fighter/knife thrower/bravest/best rider/best bard/most powerful wizard etc in town. For the RP crowd they want to know about the people in Sandpoint, who's important... and they want to grow from strangers to protectors to celebrated heroes and maybe even to fall in love. Oh, and the RP group (and maybe even the combat group) need NPCs to dislike. It's hard to stress too much how important it is to just have an unlikable fellow or two around that they can best.
Remember, you can't plan for everything. If you do the players feel they are on rails, destined only to do exactly what the AP, or you say they can do. Roll with the group, allow them some freedom, and gently nudge them towards the AP goals. If you have succeeded in allowing them to "like" Sandpoint, they will bend over backwards to protect it (or the people in it they like) and it will all fall into place. If they end up in a position to save an NPC they like or to save one they dislike and that choice is easy, or between two NPCs they like and it is hard... you have won! They have gotten to the point they believe in the NPCs and the rest is just fun. (and you can get both combat monsters and RP lovers to this point fairly easily)
This is getting long, so I'll cut it off here. I'm sure you will have fun and I can't wait to hear how you made the AP yours and what your players are like in a writeup somewhere.
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I don't have a thread yet detailing my PCs' exploits. I probably should get off my duff and do that someday.
I go back and forth on XP. I abolished it from the 4E campaign I ran until it died, and it seemed to work fine. I picked it back up again for RotRL after running under a friend's game that also dropped it, and it felt like there was little to no progress. I think that's the key - if you can keep conveying a sense of the plot moving forward, then XP might not be necessary. If you're stuck in town for awhile, and it doesn't feel like you're getting anywhere, then handing out an XP reward is a DM's way of saying "No, what you're doing is just as important as killing monsters and taking their stuff."
I think downtime's important for games, especially APs. Sometimes, APs do too good a job of getting the party involved in the plot line.
The story is kickstarted by a goblin raid on a town. It's then followed by a few weeks of stories where the PCs get to know the town, and they get hints that the goblins are a greater threat that need to be dealt with. Many PCs will want to head out into the wilds and start killing goblins, but the plot wants them here in town, so Glass and Wrath can happen and resolve itself.
What do you do if the party decides it wants to head out and exterminate the local goblin warrens? Well, I'd let them for a bit, then bring them back into the plot. Have them attack a few goblins in the wilds, and find out that they're in the process of raiding a farm. A lone elf woman with a bow is picking off goblins, but she's pinned down by a bugbear archer. The arrival of the PCs can turn the tide. Shalelu will thank them for their aid, and let them know that there's more going on out here than they know. She'll ask for an escort back to town (even though she really doesn't need it), saying she's got information that Sheriff Hemlock needs to know.
In short, listen to what your players want to do, and do your best to make that happen in the parameters in the game. I've got a gnome who's taken up the adventuring lifestyle to help bail out his uncle's floundering locksmithing business, so his motivations are different than the bounty hunter in the party, who's more interested in fulfilling any and all contracts he enters into, and his motivations are completely different to the cleric/paladin of Ragathiel. Some of them are motivated by money, others by compassion, still others by wanting to be a hero. You're likely to have a similar mix of calls to heroism, so the best way is to either appeal to them in broad strokes (go kill these monsters to save the town, and you can keep their stuff), or get them involved in the town, so that when it's threatened, they stand up to defend it themselves ("Like Hell I'm going to let you burn this town to the ground!").