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I have to say that reading this, what a year or so after playing it is awesome. I get to see things I'd forgotten!
So, having not run this as a GM I can only give you the player side view of these two items. First, the puzzle... given the speech, in writing / on paper to look over as a player it was very easy to make a pretty good guess about what needs be done. It doesn't make it simple, and it is fairly vague on specifics, but you KNOW when you defeat one of the important NPCs vs a random monster. At that point, you can totally understand that portion of the clue. I think that would work for nearly any group of players, however for younger groups perhaps you could have one of the NPCs sneeringly remark about the terribly obvious clue and just spell out you need to (in equally vague terms) get rid of some number of important bad guys then finish up. I doubt most players would need even that level of help though. Secondly... the soul-trapping aspect and curses. I see this as more of a writer's tool for making what is just a typical dungeon encounter with a couple of random NPCs tagging along into a dangerous situation. I see similar things in many APs, and I find them to be fine for the groups I play in / with. As a GM though, you need to be the judge of your group. Are they role play heavy, very invested in their characters sorts that would take a perm-death very badly? Are they cautious enough and strong enough tacticians that such a death is unlikely? And finally, do you roll behind a GM's screen? (that last mostly as a joke). If you can't answer those last questions about your players, then I suggest you ask them what they think of it. Nothing wrong with getting the popular vote on it, player to GM. Personally I say keep the curses in and let the players enjoy the risk, just have a well thought out way to begin a new character for people and realize that a TPK can be quite un-recoverable for a solid RP oriented party.
I'll add to the question... let's consider a mass or communal spell. One that targets more people and is higher level than a basic spell. Say, bull's strength. When you target that one person of the many under the effect of the spell, do you dispel the higher level communal version or the lower level base version? For specifics:
So, when I target one of the multiple people under the effect of that level 6 spell; do I need hit a level 6 spell or a level 2 spell. If I succeed at level 6, does it get everyone or just that one person. It seems to me that if I blindly dispel a person, hoping to strip magic off, I get the first spell I hit on that target... if I target the spell Bull's Strength I get one target's buff and need to clear a level 2... and if I target Bull's Strength, Mass I would get everyone under the effect of that one casting of the Mass version of the spell, assuming I could get rid of the level 6 spell. Or does that even make sense?
I'm running this sequence right now for a group that includes a paladin. I agree with NH and Seannoss, you don't have to put that much of a restriction on the paladin's player. However, i'll add this... My group can kill just about any demon I've thrown against them at this point. If you want to run a very combat heavy game, with the paladin leading a total slaughter of every demon he runs into, I think you can. It will be fairly combat heavy, it will remove much of the angst that my paladin feels in every game as he walks a tightrope between doing, and suffering, but it will likely work. The key is, the demons are chaotic and certainly not loyal to each other. Weak ones will flee, strong ones may attack; but not likely working together, more likely out for the glory of the solo kill. I suggest you plan out encounters that fit well with the character levels and allow your paladin to kill them. After a few dozen he will get his Nocticula invite and then it will be a question of "deal with the demon or die". That will likely be the TPK that ends the game, but maybe not. Noticula maybe won't "do evil things" in front of a paladin she wants to use... She's smart that way. Good luck!
The disagreement isn't as much as you might think. My disagreement isn't with the rules as written or as interpreted. My problem is that the chosen chance we would be heard wasn't made clear before everything went south. You could have just said... As a group of players you've planned for an hour and you should know based on your character's perceptions of +20 or more that it's nearly impossible for them not to hear you use that wand from that place you think is safe behind a different building (because you can clearly hear THEM). You need to move at least 200 feet away or get 2 more walls between you and them or they will hear. We know this now; it won't be any issue anymore. Helping the players understand the world is what we were howling about. On a side note, I guess every GM can expect that anytime a party needs to go into a situation, the first thing they will all do is stand quietly, outside and spend a moment taking 20 on perception rolls to hear everything inside before they start. I mean they may as well... someone's perception is over +20, and there isn't any negative for failure, and it says right in the rules that they can "try again"... so, get ready to describe all the random conversations. And those BBEGs that every AP says cast buffs before combat. Realize the PCs can hear them, from 3 rooms over... and will know given some spellcraft what they cast and they just won't engage until the round and/or minute ones are done. The BBEG will need to come to attack I guess and run into an ambush every time. THAT is the problem with the system... it doesn't work very well on either side. Once you make it so everyone can pretty much hear everything it's a bit silly. But we can all certainly agree, those are "the rules".
I was one of those people that "howled bloody murder". The reason was simple, we were outside a second building, downstairs, through two walls, in Old Korvosa, surrounded by the destruction of that city. The guards had been scouted by an invisible stealth'd character so we knew where they were and we then find out, at the time we cast silence, that "Oh, they hear the single word, have no spell craft to know what that single word is..." and then the bad guys take up defensive positions and become fully alert. What this means is, NO you cannot buff discretely in a room full of people. You cannot even cast a single wand spell out of site 30 or more feet on the other side of a building. Heck, you can't even "go to the little priest's room" unless that room is in another building. Everyone, everywhere will know that you cast that buff. Forget it. Unless you are dealing with less than level 5 opponents, no one can cast anything ever without everyone knowing.
Now there is a statement to which I entirely agree. I may have chosen poorly in my examples of things to show that I turned out ok. In truth you are correct in that there isn't much I could say to show I'm a good person. Most of the anecdotal, I'm a good person statements here mean little. I suppose you could take, "I have no police record" to mean "I'm really good at being evil." Or even, "I've never done X." to mean "I'm pretty good at lying". I suppose that we will just have to assume that those who say they turned out ok did so. This is the internet after all. As an aside, I didn't mean to imply I was rich, just that I've grown to no longer be a burden on my parents. Something I think many parents want their children to accomplish and as such something that could be measured as "success" in raising a child. I'm sure there are many such expectations that could be listed, and we could have a checklist and a score for how we each turned out. :) A more interesting topic though might be; How much of that was the parent's doing, and how much of it the child's?
You certainly don't get to fluff your feathers about salary and free time as some sort of measuring stick of how well you turned out. Take your salary and divide it by the lowest paid person working in your company (you can even adjust them to full time even though you probably only let them work 27 hours to prevent them from claiming benefits status) and if the answer is 50 or greater then you are a terrible person. I didn't make any assumptions about you before (because if you even said anything I didn't notice) but now that you have opened your mouth I'll feel free to draw conclusions about you based directly on your own words. Ah, again with the generalizations. This time with pay and being terrible should you make some arbitrary ratio more than someone else? I'll say that is again rather general and certainly can't apply to everyone (Though I myself don't fit your category so might still not be terrible, at least by this measuring stick.) I fear the only correct conclusion you can draw is that I'm a bit of a troll. :) Oh, and that I often have a differing opinion than someone who categorically states 'If some arbitrary condition X exists you (or some other random person, parents etc.) are a terrible person.' I've never seen a good formula for finding terrible people and doubt this is it. I don't think you are a terrible person, though perhaps someone with whom I occasionally disagree. I'd say you do have strong opinions, or at the very least a strong way of expressing them. Oh, as a side note, I don't have nearly the free time you perhaps have assumed. I just give up sleep for Pathfinder. :) This post does have me thinking Tengu for some reason... In closing, I took no offense at all at your statements towards me. I just disagree that parents, in general, are bad if they allow their children privacy or permit them to do "bad" things and learn from the experience. Even in that, perhaps I have misread and that isn't your position at all. If so, I'm sorry I chose you as the person with whom I disagreed.
To be clear; if you are shooting other kids with guns, exploding animals, and spending weekend nights with your girlfriend before you turn 18, then "your parents didn't care if you got into trouble so they never bothered to grill you about anything," is dead on accurate. You can have a problem with it all you want, that doesn't mean I'm not right. Hmm, this is such a general, absolute statement that it's hard to disagree. So, as I understand it, if kids explode animals AND shoot other kids with guns AND spend weekend nights with their girlfriends before 18 AND your parents didn't care if you got into trouble AND they didn't grill you about anything... you make assumptions about the parents? How many people fit your limited example? I'll agree that you have set a fairly extreme circumstance that would make you correct many times. However, what's the point? Let's try this and see what you think. My parents trusted me, because I built that trust over years. I did live with them for at least a dozen I remember well and quite likely 18 of them (I just really don't remember many of those early years). I lived near Detroit, ran with a "group of liked minded enthusiasts", got into a few fights, drag raced cars for pink slips, made a few mistakes, and grew up. I never really exploded any animals, and my shooting of other kids with guns was quite limited. My parents never grilled me about my activities, they asked with respect and were given an answer with more of the same. If I felt they shouldn't know I told them so, and they frowned and told me that it was my choice. Sometimes they allowed me to go/do the thing we were discussing, sometimes not. My relationship with them was a good solid one. People who know my parents and my family describe them as "Leave it to Beaver" like. I was the first child of 3 in a family of 5. My parents were excellent ones, both in my opinion and in the opinion of many other people. So, in your opinion my parents didn't care? I was raised poorly? I take offense. Today I'm an executive at a fortune 500 company. I make a fine salary, get to play Pathfinder all I want, still love my parents (mother alive, father died a few years ago), and I feel turned out pretty much how they wanted. How can you make assumptions about them? I'll go out on a limb and say that your classification of such parents could be based upon your personal experience with a few people you know/knew. I'll also, on that same limb, guess that there are quite a few more people like me out there. I admit that my perception of the discussed topic is limited to my experiences, but do feel that my experiences should not be discarded in an offhand way with such a broad, high-handed, all encompassing statement. I'll even admit that you are certainly allowed an opinion; and that opinions are never wrong... This however is my opinion; parents can be respectful of their child's privacy and still be involved. Children can make mistakes without there being an instant negative reflection on their parents. And finally, parents who understand this often end up with children willing and capable of working well in our world, who respect other's privacy and who are willing to take informed risks without fear of reprisal.
So, my very favorite ghost story scared some of my friends / co-workers bad enough that they left work early... As the story is told:
Three of the four were near the front of the kitchen, looking past a counter to the seating area, where they see two people dressed quite formal like walk into view from the small side area. They came from near the back door to the front of the place and stood in the shadows, silently looking into the kitchen over the counter. This unnerved the workers a tiny bit. One of the four employees went to check the back door as it was obviously left unlocked, but shortly after called to the others who leaving one person (me) to watch the two "guests" standing in the dimly lit seating area. The three found that the back door was locked, and I'll point out that it takes a key to lock/unlock that door even from the inside. Walking to the front through the side area to the dim seating area, they found the two "guests" had vanished right in front of the poor guy they left watching them. The three of them checked the front doors and they were indeed locked just like the back door! This proceeded to creep them out enough that they just shut off the lights and all went home. To this day the story of the two ghosts who stopped in to watch the late night cleanup crew is sometimes told. With particular detail to how they never said a word, dressed oddly (more oddly with each telling) and walked through walls. So, what actually happened?: It was after hours, I was responsible for locking the back door and forgot... two people wandered in, a bit tipsy from the local bar looking for something to eat. Soon as I heard the door open I slipped back and locked it behind them then went behind the counter... After people went to check the back door, I hopped the counter explained we were closed and let them out the front, locking the door behind them and then returning to my work once again over the counter. All I said to my co-workers when asked about the guests was, "they were just there!" and that let us out early for the night. :)
Oooh, not the glare! Ok, just to get this out of the way... the greatest pleasure in this game for me came from the other players and the GM. That aside, there are a few things about the actual game that stand out. :) First and foremost my very favorite thing about the entire AP is the characters. They meshed so very well and it really felt like Shiro started out rock bottom, earned his friends and learned to be an excellent bard. The NPCs I loved because I liked them:
And the ones I loved because I despised them:
And the very best thing was the PCs.
Hi and all of his antics with fireworks and his eventual relationship with Rilka... and finally... Shiro and Raesh's relationship that started when they sat on a boat under the stars and grew until it solidified when he raced her into the demon powered machine at the damn. She is the very best leader and a truly wonderful friend. Shiro even had his life extended so he could continue to follow her for years to come. As for particular scenes I liked:
A certain priest of Erastil standing tall willing to give his life to save some children from a flood. The intense giant area with the library. It seemed so overwhelming when we started in... 100s of giants. This proved a true test of tactics and diplomacy. A certain sandwich that ended in a pile of fur, fangs, and tails... Raesh and Shiro, every time they argued and worked it out... and every time Shiro got Raesh to smile a little or blush a bit. Hi, fireball, necklace... boom!
And for Shiro, every time the difference between a hit and a miss was his playing, and all of those times he said "Add X to that" to make someone succeed when it really mattered.
Scenes I didn't like... hmm, few and far between. I remember being frustrated now and then when the dice were just not working. I suppose the biggest disappointments were all times when we thought we'd won and ended up failing. Mr. Mud? (was that his name?) in Delvahine's area... we saved him, only to have him walk out and turn to dust. Working to save Turtleback Ferry only to hear that Magnamar had not sent troops until children were dying; and then only when the bodies were sent to the mayor himself. Oh, and ladders in Sand Point... they are quite frustrating. *grin*
Hi Kayland!
I've been a GM for quite a few decades. You have asked a few very important questions in this thread and gotten some excellent answers. I'd love to say there is one "end all be all" way to setup a campaign for your players but in my experience it really is something that needs be tailored to each group. I've had groups that treated the campaign like a chess game. They were only interested in the combat, always wanted miniatures, hex maps and lots of dice rolling. The game didn't begin until the combat started and the tiny bit of talk they did with NPCs was at best to point them to the next fight. Other groups loved the NPC interaction and wanted to have a serious role playing game. They dreaded rolling initiative, hated miniatures (other than to have a nicely painted one to show what "they" looked like)... and begged for a description of the room over a hex/square map every time. The interesting thing for me is that BOTH of those groups LOVED their games and wanted to play them constantly. My take-away from that was; run the game the players like, so long as you enjoy running that kind of game and everyone is happy. On to your questions... and I'll be sure to preface my remarks with, your mileage may vary; everyone has a best way and not everyone (or even two people) necessarily agree. How to level up characters? What pace is good?
How do you get your PCs tied into the AP?
The important thing is to realize that most players will give you a ton of slack in starting things up; but you have to earn their continued good graces by making the NPCs and the "place" interesting. For the combat group that means they may need a place to do a bar brawl now and then and they want to earn recognition as the baddest fighter/knife thrower/bravest/best rider/best bard/most powerful wizard etc in town. For the RP crowd they want to know about the people in Sandpoint, who's important... and they want to grow from strangers to protectors to celebrated heroes and maybe even to fall in love. Oh, and the RP group (and maybe even the combat group) need NPCs to dislike. It's hard to stress too much how important it is to just have an unlikable fellow or two around that they can best. Remember, you can't plan for everything. If you do the players feel they are on rails, destined only to do exactly what the AP, or you say they can do. Roll with the group, allow them some freedom, and gently nudge them towards the AP goals. If you have succeeded in allowing them to "like" Sandpoint, they will bend over backwards to protect it (or the people in it they like) and it will all fall into place. If they end up in a position to save an NPC they like or to save one they dislike and that choice is easy, or between two NPCs they like and it is hard... you have won! They have gotten to the point they believe in the NPCs and the rest is just fun. (and you can get both combat monsters and RP lovers to this point fairly easily) This is getting long, so I'll cut it off here. I'm sure you will have fun and I can't wait to hear how you made the AP yours and what your players are like in a writeup somewhere.
A tiny bit of information, tossed out to keep the world in touch... NobodysHome's move went well. :) Last I heard he had no internet service for a few days (they are getting it worked out). Otherwise, all things are progressing on schedule.
Name: Raj Sklaarson
So need to dot this...
So looking forward to tomorrow's game!
Just a quick note... excellent writing! This is almost as much fun to read as it is to play. :) |
