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there are a few examples out there where an archetype doesnt specify what lvl you would gain a certain ability. ive read some threads where people stated a dev weighed in and stated that unless it specifies a certain level you get it at 1st, but they never provided quotes our any citation as to where that statement came from.
anyone happen to know if and where an official statement was made and could point me in the right direction?
Would need an example.
Would need an example.
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo--- witch-archetypes/hedge-witch
ask and ye shall receive
I'm guessing you're talking about Hedge Witch, even though your link should look like this.
Uhh I don't see the confusion. Hedge witch tells you which hexes are replaced. You get the archettpe abilities at those levels.
The confusion is that typically such abilities say "At 4th level, .... This replaces X." The abilities in question do not state that they trigger at 4th/8th level, only that you get them and that you do not get the 4th-/8th-level hex. I've always interpreted the hedge witch as getting these abilities immediately. Now I'm not sure.
Take the Beastmaster archetype. One of its abilities, Strong Bond (Ex), explicitly states that the ranger gets the ability at 12th level. Another, Improved Empathic Link, does not, even though it replaces hunter bond, which is normally only gained at 6th level. Since the level is specified with one and not the other, I am inclined to believe that specifying the level is important, and that the Beastmaster gets Improved Empathic Link immediately (though it is useless until the ranger actually has an animal companion).
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If it 'replaces hunter bond, which is normally only gained at 6th level.', then the replacement ability is gained at 6th level, by definition.
The primary way in which archetypes modify their corresponding base classes is via the use of alternate class features. When a character selects a class, he must normally choose to use the standard class features found in the class's original source—the exception is if he chooses to adopt an archetype. Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype replaces a specific class feature from its parent class. For example, the flowing monk archetype's redirection class feature replaces the Stunning Fist feature of the standard monk class.
All archetype abilities are straight swaps, you get the archetype ability instead of the base ability.
Since you couldn't gain the base ability until you were the appropriate level, you can't swap it until you reach the level you would normally have gained the base ability.As you say, it is useless until the ranger actually has an animal companion. How would he train himself? How would he practice it?
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Spontaneous Healing (Su): A hedge witch can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that she did not prepare ahead of time. The witch can “lose” any prepared spell that is not an orison in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower, even if she doesn't know that cure spell. This replaces the witch's hex gained at 4th level.
This ability replaces the witch's hex gained at 4th level.
Go to Table: Witch
Find the row on the table relating to class level 4.
Move along the row, until you come to the 'Special' column.
Change the text in that cell. Replace the word 'Hex', with the words 'Spontaneous Healing'.
Now refer to the revised table, when advancing in level.
Having done that...
At what level do you think the witch gains Spontaneous healing?
there was some debate here on the boards awhile back that since it doesnt specifically say "at 4th level you get X" that it defaulted to 1st level.
there is precedent to receive abilities that swap out for something you gain at a later level (ex: fighter archetype brawler).
as of right now those of us at our game have been going with spontaneous healing swapping in at 4th level, but having come across said old posts it got us to wondering.
But saying you can't swap out an ability you don't have yet isn't exactly correct as there are archetypes that do exactly that.
If it 'replaces hunter bond, which is normally only gained at 6th level.', then the replacement ability is gained at 6th level, by definition.
The primary way in which archetypes modify their corresponding base classes is via the use of alternate class features. When a character selects a class, he must normally choose to use the standard class features found in the class's original source—the exception is if he chooses to adopt an archetype. Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype replaces a specific class feature from its parent class. For example, the flowing monk archetype's redirection class feature replaces the Stunning Fist feature of the standard monk class.All archetype abilities are straight swaps, you get the archetype ability instead of the base ability.
Since you couldn't gain the base ability until you were the appropriate level, you can't swap it until you reach the level you would normally have gained the base ability.As you say, it is useless until the ranger actually has an animal companion. How would he train himself? How would he practice it?
Nothing in the text you quoted states that a class feature is implied to swap out at the level the original feature is acquired--and, in fact, many are not.
The reason I take that approach isn't for power reasons. When I look at an archetype, I view it as a different class--adding each new section wholesale as if it were in the original class entry, and removing any section that says it has been replaced. Since some of the new abilities have level requirements, and some (most) of those match the replaced abilities, I have to assume that the rest do not.
I hadn't thought about the hedge witch dip, as it hadn't occurred to me that it would work with non-witch spell slots. Still, it wouldn't be the first time an archetype was created with such a "glitch". It does mean that the hedge witch is strictly better than a witch for the first four levels, but thematically it makes sense that a hedge witch would be able to spontaneously cure immediately--it's an integral part of that witch's flavor. Maybe they should have replaced the first level hex instead; if I were to house rule the archetype, I'd do that.
But saying you can't swap out an ability you don't have yet isn't exactly correct as there are archetypes that do exactly that.
This is putting the cart before the horse.
You cannot swap out that which you don't have. My boss is going to give me a paycheck next week, but I cannot swap (spend) that money for groceries until he actually gives me the paycheck.
Sure, there probably are a few archetypes that explicitly say something like "At level 1 you get to swap out the level 4 class ability for the following new ability". If there is such an archetype, then this explicitly stated exception proves that it is an exception because the normal rule would require you to swap out class features only when you actually should have them - at the level they would have been learned.
Or another way to look at it, if that wasn't an exception, then it would be completely unnecessary for them to state it.
I suggest following Snorter's advice. While his tone was a bit sardonic, his application of the rule was correct.
They state it as an exception by declaring which level you get the ability at. We differ on what that is an exception to.
You aren't swapping what you don't have, as there's no "you"--it's just a class write-up, as if the designers crossed out a class feature and wrote in a new one. If it doesn't mention a level requirement, congratulations. The fact that they spell out which level you get some abilities and not others bolsters my argument, not yours.
Spontaneous Healing (Su): A hedge witch can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that she did not prepare ahead of time. The witch can “lose” any prepared spell that is not an orison in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower, even if she doesn't know that cure spell. This replaces the witch's hex gained at 4th level.
This ability replaces the witch's hex gained at 4th level.
Go to Table: Witch
Find the row on the table relating to class level 4.
Move along the row, until you come to the 'Special' column.
Change the text in that cell. Replace the word 'Hex', with the words 'Spontaneous Healing'.
Now refer to the revised table, when advancing in level.
Having done that...
At what level do you think the witch gains Spontaneous healing?
I counter that with this:
Go to the Witch class description.
Go to the Hex section and add "except 4th level" to the line about which levels she gets hex.
Add the new class feature as written (without the replacing line, as it's no longer relevant--this is a straight-up class description now.)
Having done that, at what level do you think the witch gains Spontaneous Healing?
(Note that this doesn't prove anything, but it does display our thought processes when reading archetypes. I (and many others) read it as a straight text substitution, you read it as a text substitution with implications.)
The distinction doesn't carry any meaning except when ruling whether a character has levels in that class.