And as Bill told me, because he likes to collect the books as well. :)
Thank heavens for slightly insane* publishers.
Ah, I had forgotten that it had a name. Yes, good to hear that the next level is being worked on! Had some issues with the map scale, but thought it was well done beyond that.
PF64,
I had the pleasure to meet most of the FGG staff at PaizoCon earlier this year (sorry you weren't there Chuck!) and you won't find another group of people who are more dedicated than this bunch.
As Chuck indicated, with a company at their size (and they are not the smallest out there) they don't make all that much money at this. In fact, when you see those really fancy rewards on KS, they lose money. However, they go through the work of releasing all of this because they are all gamers and love writing and sharing with all of us. And as Bill told me, because he likes to collect the books as well. :)
Thanks for letting me know. PaizoCon sounds like fun but it is 2,000 miles away. I think I just need to stay away from kickstarters. I have been burned too many times. I have had ks that released the pdf's for sale a week before sending them to backers, others that just refuse to answer e-mail or posts about what is happening (not FGG), and another where I just might as well have thrown $750 in the trash along with other problems from ks. All this has just made me too angry/sensitive about kickstarters.
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Yeah, kickstarter is a mixed bag. If I were them, I'd implement a contractual obligation on project promoters to provide at least monthly updates after the project had funded, detailing what work had been done in that period. A project can be late with minimal angst involved provided everyone is kept informed as to where things stand.
Krista has a broken shoulder! Ow! Sorry to hear that. You know I would help if I could get the time off work. Although, I can't match Lil' Frog. She's stronger than I. :)
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Lol, the hazards of having a father who was an architect I guess! We were mapping everything out to scale in 1E. I never did play OD&D. "That wall is off by a quarter of an inch!" and make sure there are enough bathrooms! Yeah, I got comments on Kelandor's gold for all the bathrooms:) My dad was the guy who went out on jobs and made sure everything was built to spec and code. Builders hated when he showed up, always cost them money! Kind of rubbed off on me, what can I say? Working in accounting for 8 years didn't help either, "Your off 37cents here!"
...Mana Frog (with a broken shoulder, so could only print receipts)...
...I mean it sucks that it costs us $75-100 to ship Steve Geddes his stuff (lol--more like $300 on RC I think)...
I hope those two points arent related. :o
PS - I dont expect you to wear the costs of me living on the other side of the world, by the way. If shipping costs are more than you expected (I dont think I added $300 to ship Razor Coast), I'd be fine with you letting me know and I'll make up the difference..
Oh wow, Krista broke her shoulder? Please give her my best and that she has a speedy and safe recovery.
And Lil’ Frog is stronger in more ways than one. Is putting her Dad to shame on GMing too. Bill is getting soft in his old age. :)
Bill,
Working in accounting for 8 years didn't help either, "Your off 37cents here!"
This is where I am. You probably know exactly how many times I have to take books back because of <$1 inaccuracies.
I finally decided to quit the profession and go into IT. Too many bad IT conversions causing messes that no one could clean up. One of my last ones involved over a half a million in adjustments that they just decided to wash against each other:( No more bank work for me!
Sorry to hear about Krista. Hope she heals quickly!
She's the fourth person I know who has needed that surgery this year so far (and the third person from the same company!) Must be an epidemic.
Sending good thoughts your way.
Being a sufferer of bursitis in both shoulders, I feel her pain!
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Kickstarters. The main thing is that KS is not a store. I have always looked at it as a gift for someone, to hopefully get me something in the future, that approximates what they originally promised. So far, batting 85% or so on getting that stuff. I have backed every FGG KS and Tsar and have never been disappointed, actually, blown away is a better description.
Also, when a KS is a few weeks late, who cares. In 5 years time, are you going to remember and be angry that it was two weeks late, or that the authors delivered an amazing product, and an amazing experience for you and your dead players, err, depends on the product.
FGG makes wonderful products and I try to support at the highest level I can. I have ZERO doubts that we will get all of what we paid for in the KS and all of the add on the subscriptions.
Patience, Orcus wasn't built in a day.
Cheers,
I love FGG products, the stuff I write is extremely similar. Hopefully, I can get my KS project off the ground in the next year.
I wish you guys all the best!!
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I think a certain amount of kickstarter fatigue is starting to set it with our group. The frequency of all the kickstarters is getting them to rethink the levels they are willing to commit to. I know my own personal finances have gotten to the point where I can no longer afford to back these to the levels I would like. I think getting just the book is going to be about the best be are going to be able to do. It is hard to ask people to come up with $200+ for something to come out in 6+ months and as soon as it comes out or even before in some cases (the ToH KS is still not out) to ask people to back another one that won't come out for a year. This crownfunding is starting to get really over saturated at this point.
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Yeah my issue has been getting a lot pickier on what I want to look at. Reaper, FGG, and possibly Kobold and Legendary I would go with. There abundance of 3PP material that is coming out for PF is getting pretty heavy and it's reminding me a lot of the ol 3.0 OGL days of D&D
I think a certain amount of kickstarter fatigue is starting to set it with our group. The frequency of all the kickstarters is getting them to rethink the levels they are willing to commit to. I know my own personal finances have gotten to the point where I can no longer afford to back these to the levels I would like. I think getting just the book is going to be about the best be are going to be able to do. It is hard to ask people to come up with $200+ for something to come out in 6+ months and as soon as it comes out or even before in some cases (the ToH KS is still not out) to ask people to back another one that won't come out for a year. This crownfunding is starting to get really over saturated at this point.
This crownfunding is starting to get really over saturated at this point.
That's one of the reasons I try to avoid them unless I can see it's someone who really needs the money to really kickstart their project, and isn't just using it as a preorder system for the sort of product they generally produce anyway and is simply trying to avoid taking a gamble on customer demand.
I say "try to avoid" because... well... if it's something I *really want* and think I'll get a decent saving via the Kickstarter, my principles go out of the window :)
It does make me feel bad for the people who are trying to start up a brand new company through it, though, and get lost in the mix somewhere.
ToH KS is not out? Do you mean Rappan Athuk?
I was referring to the ToH miniatures KS, which is technically not a FGG KS, but it is related. Latest word is it is running on time and a deal I could not turn down, 69 minis for $200. Am still waiting on the Dwarven Forge, ships from the Asian terrain ks and Freeport also. So they are not all FGG but kinda related. Freeport is pirates also and I got the junk and ships for Razor Coast.
I'm definitely being more picky about kickstarters.
I have about 5 of them pending that are late so I'm really getting tired of the delays.
I'll likely always do FGG ones, but no one else for the moment.
I must admit, I struggle to understand why so many kickstarters run so late (I can understand the odd hiccup, but some of them are like twelve months or more overdue).
I've never seen anyone opt-out of a kickstarter based on a long anticipated fulfillment period, yet the people putting projects forward seem to think it's a highly valued thing to fulfill quickly. If it were me, I'd be really conservative in my delivery date - who's going to complain if it then turns up a month or two early?
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This is why I would more than likely only go with companies I know and trust (which sort of defeats the purpose of ks in a way...) I know they are able to meet deadlines relatively well, and in cases where not keep people in the loop about it =) My Bones showed up more or less on-time, and I keep getting updates on Kobold about Deep Magic so they're looking good too.
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I must admit, I struggle to understand why so many kickstarters run so late (I can understand the odd hiccup, but some of them are like twelve months or more overdue).
I've never seen anyone opt-out of a kickstarter based on a long anticipated fulfillment period, yet the people putting projects forward seem to think it's a highly valued thing to fulfill quickly. If it were me, I'd be really conservative in my delivery date - who's going to complain if it then turns up a month or two early?
Well, I will say one thing about Frog God Games, and how they manage to delivery in a timely manner. For all four of their Kickstarters so far, I believe the lion's share of the actual writing was done even before the Kickstarter began. The funding is more for the purposes of getting it printed and adding extras. A lot of Kickstarter projects don't actually begin development until the funding is secured.
I guess that all depends on how one defines timely, RA was about two months late and RC was three which I agree is much better than some that are more than a year late. I would not get involved in backing a company that is not established in the first place and has not shown that they can deliver product. FGG has shown that they can deliver a good product albeit sometimes a tad slowly. Still this leaves a bit of fatigue of asking people to come up with this type of cash on a semi-regular basis in this economy. After all there are only so many $100+ books the average working stiff can afford.
It was my understanding that Rappan Athuk was late mainly due to the dice maker's lack of promptness, which greatly frustrated the Frog God crew. The remainder of the product was on time or early, but since the packages could not be shipped until the dice arrived, they had to wait.
That is the thing most folks don't quite realize. All those add-ons take time and resources. When they involve outside companies or individuals, expect to see delays. The time-lines are a goal, granted one that those doing the kickstarter would prefer to keep, but they are not a hard and fast date.
I can't speak to the delivery of Razor Coast. But it too had a lot of extras that had to be obtained from other companies, so I expect that was a major contributor.
Probably the biggest contributing factor is that when people order something on the internet, they expect to get it within days. Amazon has made that part of our culture now. So, however you look at the Kickstarter platform, whether its "pledgers are shareholders" or "Pledgers are pre-ordering", people, rightly or wrongly, expect to get something immediately after the KS ends.
And some companies are able to do that. Others are not. I have some open KS that are many months behind, one I know will not deliver, and some that are still in development.
Personally, I back what interests me. I don't have to get my accounting hat on and decide the financial strength of a company to determine if they have a cool product. I just back what I like, and If I get burned, I get burned. To each their own. I do not go to the KS originators and tell them what they should do to make me happy, however. That's just me. If I don't think something is a good value, I just don't back it. I still don't see how people justify telling a company what they have to make, or what freebies/goodies they need to include. I've watched a couple of 3pp of rpg material get slammed over what "they need to include to get my pledge". That's just arrogance and entitlement. If something doesn't look good, DON"T FIGGIN' BUY IT. The whole thing just blows my mind.
And non-rpg projects are even worse. The G+ community Kicksnarker is great at finding these projects. Some of the people that post, and their expectations, are insane.
Ah, whatever. FGG has been pretty lucky with it's fanbase; the snarky comments we get are usually coming from a place of making things better, even if it doesn't come off that way (to me). All in all, I'd say we are EXTREMELY fortunate to have the fans we have. Some of the other companies Ive watched are not so lucky (wow, that miniatures market is supercrazy!! lol)
Skeeter
If I recall you are correct about the dice, however it would be my preference to see FGG to just produce more $50 books in the normal manner rather than relying on these Kickstarters for funding of huge books. I usually prepay anyway so it is not like they won't get my money in advance:)
I agree with Steve. If more promised late and delivered early, it wouldn't be as big of a deal.
If you're a 1-person operation (as many of these RPG kickstarters seem to be), then building in time for "real life circumstances" seems imperative.
While I can appreciate your financing concerns in putting out product, I have to also be concerned about our own here also. If these kickstarters are going to continue at this rate I am going to have to take a pass at most of them in the hope of picking up the books I really want later as money allows. Next year is liable to mean us missing a lot of what is going to be released unfortunately.
We understand. Not everyone can back everything. Heck, I wish I could back more things, but I prefer Hawaii at Xmas than a 3pp book I may never open.
It's all about choices. No harm, no foul.
And hopefully we will be able to have some stock on hand for future sales, although that is going to start being a slimmer margin as well.
I must admit, I struggle to understand why so many kickstarters run so late (I can understand the odd hiccup, but some of them are like twelve months or more overdue).
I've never seen anyone opt-out of a kickstarter based on a long anticipated fulfillment period, yet the people putting projects forward seem to think it's a highly valued thing to fulfill quickly. If it were me, I'd be really conservative in my delivery date - who's going to complain if it then turns up a month or two early?
I think the reason they are so late is the fact that they already have the money and they get lazy. There is no incentive for them to get it done quickly. There is just no excuse for them being 12 months or more late. Those ks are also the ones that don't communicate. I agree about the consertive delivery date. It would keep everyone happy.
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I find the biggest problem with late kickstarters is unanticipated demand and overly generous stretch goals.
As I understand it, you have to have delivery dates listed at the start. You base these dates on your fund goal.
If you suddenly get double that fund goal, and your stretch goals triple the product you are providing, those estimates cannot possibly be considered valid anymore.
I think the reason they are so late is the fact that they already have the money and they get lazy.
If the company has complete control over every aspect of production, I might agree. When the company has to rely on outside sources to deliver elements on-time, I doubt laziness on their part is the culprit.
Yup--I am only planning a big one 1-2 x a year now. RC was December-Jan last year. RA was 18 months ago. SW was in the middle--but it was (or at least could be) very affordable to get the full meal deal.
Next big one (we may do another small one with a $35-50 book next Spring) won't be until a year from now (ish).Also--nothing until we deliver (or at least send to print) this one.
Totally hear ya Greg--that is why we slowed stuff down.
Hopefully things will be a little better for us by then and we can afford that schedule. I am disabled and can't work now so it is tough. Hopefully I can get my disability by then and then some treatment so I can at least work part time.
I find the biggest problem with late kickstarters is unanticipated demand and overly generous stretch goals.
As I understand it, you have to have delivery dates listed at the start. You base these dates on your fund goal.
If you suddenly get double that fund goal, and your stretch goals triple the product you are providing, those estimates cannot possibly be considered valid anymore.
Granted. Nonetheless, in that situation, they should be clear about what the effect on timeline is going to be as the stretch goals roll by. If they're not, I think they're probably at risk of having created a non-viable kickstarter anyhow (the kind where the perks offered cost more than the pledges, meaning every milestone is just a bigger loss).
I think legendary games' approach is excellent, for example - they've already highlighted that hitting the "extra content" stretch goals is likely to delay delivery. I'll put money on the fact that, should they end up hitting those, there'll be an update early setting out a new expected delivery date.
I think the reason they are so late is the fact that they already have the money and they get lazy. There is no incentive for them to get it done quickly. There is just no excuse for them being 12 months or more late. Those ks are also the ones that don't communicate. I agree about the consertive delivery date. It would keep everyone happy.I must admit, I struggle to understand why so many kickstarters run so late (I can understand the odd hiccup, but some of them are like twelve months or more overdue).
I've never seen anyone opt-out of a kickstarter based on a long anticipated fulfillment period, yet the people putting projects forward seem to think it's a highly valued thing to fulfill quickly. If it were me, I'd be really conservative in my delivery date - who's going to complain if it then turns up a month or two early?
A number of the ones I've backed have made an error (I suspect) in throwing so much value into the kickstarter that they're actually losing money with every new backer. No doubt many also haven't factored in Amazon's commission, nor the percentage of payments that will fail to process.
Appendix N Asventures for DCC, for example ended up at five printed modules plus PDFs (all with new art and cartography), a screen, conversions from another game system, a new campaign setting and a slipcase for twenty bucks, including shipping. I reckon the guy got so caught up trying to hit his goals, he didn't realise he was actually going backwards with each pledge. Once it funded, I suspect he quite simply didn't have enough cash to deliver.
I don't really excuse any of that - if you're going to run a kickstarter, you should think all that through from the start, IMO.
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I do not go to the KS originators and tell them what they should do to make me happy, however. That's just me. If I don't think something is a good value, I just don't back it. I still don't see how people justify telling a company what they have to make, or what freebies/goodies they need to include. I've watched a couple of 3pp of rpg material get slammed over what "they need to include to get my pledge". That's just arrogance and entitlement. If something doesn't look good, DON"T FIGGIN' BUY IT. The whole thing just blows my mind.
At the risk of sounding over entitled...this surprises me a bit.
I'm always happy to tell people what I'm looking for when I back a project. I figure what's the alternative? Let you run lots of kickstarters as experiments until you hit on what will get my support? I generally back projects at the higher levels which is, I dare say, where most of the profit is (provided bill doesn't foot my shipping bill, of course). I figure its doing the project originators a favour to be clear about what makes me say yes and what will be of no interest.
I do not go to the KS originators and tell them what they should do to make me happy, however. That's just me. If I don't think something is a good value, I just don't back it. I still don't see how people justify telling a company what they have to make, or what freebies/goodies they need to include. I've watched a couple of 3pp of rpg material get slammed over what "they need to include to get my pledge". That's just arrogance and entitlement. If something doesn't look good, DON"T FIGGIN' BUY IT. The whole thing just blows my mind.At the risk of sounding over entitled...this surprises me a bit.
I'm always happy to tell people what I'm looking for when I back a project. I figure what's the alternative? Let you run lots of kickstarters as experiments until you hit on what will get my support? I generally back projects at the higher levels which is, I dare say, where most of the profit is (provided bill doesn't foot my shipping bill, of course). I figure its doing the project originators a favour to be clear about what makes me say yes and what will be of no interest.
I think it's a matter of presentation.
"I've backed you guys and it would be cool if you did 'X'! I would up my pledge in a heartbeat for that!"
Vs.
"Your offerings are pathetic! Unless you give me 'X' you can stuff it!"
No way we could do a 500+ pager at risk. Just doing Stoneheart and TOH 4 in the same quarter killed our cashflow for 6 months. We are "almost" even again on these after 3 months post release (meaning back to $0 on both books).
That's a very important part for folks to pay attention to there.
Yup--I am only planning a big one 1-2 x a year now. RC was December-Jan last year. RA was 18 months ago. SW was in the middle--but it was (or at least could be) very affordable to get the full meal deal.
Next big one (we may do another small one with a $35-50 book next Spring) won't be until a year from now (ish).Also--nothing until we deliver (or at least send to print) this one.
Totally hear ya Greg--that is why we slowed stuff down.
Bill,
1-2 big books per year seems perfect to me.
I just pledged for Sword of Air today. It sounds like a really awesome adventure, but I was on the fence for a while because between my FGG and Paizo stuff I often think that I've already have more adventure material than I'll ever be able to run.
When it comes down to it though I just couldn't pass this up and there is no company I trust more than FGG to deliver top quality products.
I was a Slumbering Tsar Subscriber and I went in on both RA and RC kickstarters and I have never been disappointed.
It's worth pointing out that having a "low level" buy in can't hurt. Something like $5 or $10 so some people (like me) can just throw the little bit of money we can spend at you when even the $40 level is just not in the budget at the moment. :)
What would I expect at the $5-$10 level?
Nothing. Just an opportunity to keep up with what's going on. But that's just me.
I also would like to make this observation about the timing. I would have the money for the $110 buy in if you did this KS in the Spring as then I could budget for it out of my tax return "Spending money."
Right now I have to think about Christmas.
Just some food for thought.
I do not go to the KS originators and tell them what they should do to make me happy, however. That's just me. If I don't think something is a good value, I just don't back it. I still don't see how people justify telling a company what they have to make, or what freebies/goodies they need to include. I've watched a couple of 3pp of rpg material get slammed over what "they need to include to get my pledge". That's just arrogance and entitlement. If something doesn't look good, DON"T FIGGIN' BUY IT. The whole thing just blows my mind.At the risk of sounding over entitled...this surprises me a bit.
I'm always happy to tell people what I'm looking for when I back a project. I figure what's the alternative? Let you run lots of kickstarters as experiments until you hit on what will get my support? I generally back projects at the higher levels which is, I dare say, where most of the profit is (provided bill doesn't foot my shipping bill, of course). I figure its doing the project originators a favour to be clear about what makes me say yes and what will be of no interest.
I think it's a matter of presentation.
"I've backed you guys and it would be cool if you did 'X'! I would up my pledge in a heartbeat for that!"
Vs.
"Your offerings are pathetic! Unless you give me 'X' you can stuff it!"
Well, yeah - I think that holds true for every interaction. Maybe I misunderstood Skeeter's point. He seemed to be advocating silence (other than voting with one's wallet).
Progressing nicely, so far. We're halfway to $120k. I'll be disappointed if we dont make that. I really want to see a Lost Lands map. :)
It's worth pointing out that having a "low level" buy in can't hurt. Something like $5 or $10 so some people (like me) can just throw the little bit of money we can spend at you when even the $40 level is just not in the budget at the moment. :)
What would I expect at the $5-$10 level?
Nothing. Just an opportunity to keep up with what's going on. But that's just me.
I think if the project makes it that far, this would be an ideal pledge level for just a player's guide (perhaps PDF-only, since the postage might make it uneconomical for people).