Dazing spell is a Metamagic feat that allows you to daze creatures using a spell that does damage.
In yesterdays session my players had some frost giants frozen for an entire combat.
They kept extending the number of rounds that the creatures were dazed by doing more damage with dazing spell.
This seemed really cheesy. I really don't want to DM fiat that Dazing spell doesn't work but I would love to discover that it doesn't work as we are playing it now.
I really wish the feat said something similar to what the Daze spell says.
After a creature has been dazed by this spell, it is immune to the effects of this spell for 1 minute.
This would have at least allowed the frost giants to act after the initial 4 rounds they were dazed.
They kept failing their saves? Then I would think they'd get everything coming to them eh?
Reflex saves.
Yeah its +3 spell level. Throw more encounters. Obviously if they've rested up and aren't fighting an APL+4 fight they're going to rip it to shreds.
Nope. They still have lots more.
Is it more than one caster doing it? Break out the monsters with good reflex saves, or just good saves in general.
Give us more information, what level is the party, whose doing it?
I wanted help with Dazing Spell. If you can't help I'm sorry.
As it stands, if they failed their save then yes they get dazed. No the dazing effect doesn't have a limit like the actual Daze cantrip.
Can you give an example of the spell cast and the DC?
Again, knowing whose doing it and what level would be very helpful.
Ug, I hope your right. I looked at the other creature they will be fighting in this AP and none of them seem to have very high reflex saves.
The dragon will fortunately get SR but it will be ridiculous if that encounter ends with a dazed dragon from a snapdragon firework.
23 reflex save for the Snapdragon firework.
22 fireball.
I'm sensing a spell focus + Greater Spell Focus build with an atleast 26-28 casting stat? Perhaps Arcane Bloodline sorcerer?
Just keep in mind reducing the damage to nothing also negates any effects that might come along with the damage.
Snapdragon firework was apparently also Heighten.
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Well there's a great deal of difference between a dazing fireball (6th level spell) and a dazing snapdragon fireworks (4th level).
One of the other posters brought up a legitimate concern. If your players are using up a lot of spells in a single encounter, is it because they know they can get away with it?
As for a dragon, dragons are pretty smart. If he knows that most (all?) of the dazing spells he is likely to encounter are fire-based, springing for some protection from fire might be worthwhile.
Snapdragon firework was apparently also Heighten.
So they are a sorcerer? Can you tell me the class and level please so I'm not flailing in the dark trying to pull these statistics out of the abyss? The Arcane bloodline ability the boosts DCs for spells that have been metamagic'ed can only occur once as well.
But yes, Resist fire 5 would cancel out the fireworks magnificently.
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?? - (10+Spell Level+Applicable Attribute) and the Fireball has a lower save than Snapdragon Firework? Must be an interesting build...
- Points to remember:
- Daze lasts only as long as the unmodified spell had levels.
- Damage must be done for the daze effect to take place.
So, if you can eliminate the spell's damage, no Daze effect. Further, if it's level one, he's casting it from a Level 4 slot, and there are a lot of better options on the table for those spells. It's a Daze effect for one DC higher than the actual spell and possibly a different save stat. Also note, that Heighten Spell must stack with other metamagic, so it would be L1+??+3 for a (1+?? round) Daze effect... Cast with a L3 spell and it is more serious, but then it's a level 6 spell.
I'm with some of the others, what's the rough character build?
Okay, that's one encounter fixed... maybe. I'm on the last book here and there isn't much stopping them form taking these encounters once a day if they really wanted. I mean I could fiat that they can't teleport back to town or something like that. I think that's too cheesy.
I'm not trying to screw them over.
I have the monsters they are going to fight. Those monsters aren't going to change just because the rule aren't in they're favor. I'm going to play this out as its suppose to be played out.
I honestly think Dazing Spell is broken. I was hoping there was an FAQ or something that fixed it.
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It also sounds like your sorcerer is at least level 12. The game does tend to break down at around this level, especially if players and GM don't agree as to what sort of game they want to have.
Globe of invulnerability would protect one creature nicely against this tactic; a fifth level spell with Dazing thrown on is 8th level, so your sorcerer would need to be level 16. Certainly an option for a big bad that doesn't want to be dazed; at the very least they would need to figure out he is immune and why, and then dispel it.
Two spellcasters
One Sorcerer and a wizard.
They have high stats because they have good equipment.
Level 15 both of them.
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It also might be of note that Dazing Spell does not stack with itself. If the spell being modified has a daze effect then the metamagic merely increases the duration of the spell's effect, not other Dazing Spells. In the case of two casters using Daze in the same turn at the same target and both succeeding, only the longest duration takes effect.
only the longest duration takes effect.
They just kept it going long enough for the fighter and monk to rip them apart.
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They do not suffer any penalties to defenses when Dazed. They simply cannot take actions. Like many I agree that attacks without reprisal are the best kind to make. It can be frustrating when characters are using an effective combination that exploits a weakness in the challenge set forth. If the PC's teleport out of the area to resupply on spells, what is stopping the NPC's from resupplying on defenses?
Are you in a situation where you are completely at the mercy of the players? Could some of the challenges return (if it's a dragon, he could "recruit" more defenders to populate the approach to his lair, for instance) or be replaced and have to be redone? The NPC's do not need to be static, and if the opponent is intelligent then any number of modifications might occur in the downtime between raids from the party, including effects which prevent teleporting out to resupply on spells.
I know what dazed is. I've looked extensively into it. That's kind of what I do.
Sure the NPC's could perhaps "recruit" although that doesn't exactly fit well with the event of the Adventure Path(Kingmaker).
Having spells cast on the NPC is do-able although to be honest I don't think this is at all addressing the actual problem.
If my sessions were longer I wouldn't have the luxury/time to find a counter to every problem my PC throw at me. It is the job of the PC to throw problems at me.
I like to put most of my effort into making sure they/we are following the rules correctly, and that was the point of this post.
So I'll tell you what. I'll try to find some way around this problem, but I think if I have to change the NPC's that's proof that there is some serious problems with this feat.
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you said your characters are lvl 15? for the wizard that means lvl 8 or less he can cast and the sorc lvl 7 and less...
One answer I'd have, simply give the NPCs spell turning cast on them.
Voila, now your PCs are dazzed for rounds and the NPCs have free reign, and it's a VERY common spell imo for caster NPCs to use. Likewise if the PCs are anticipating it, they should then be spending rounds getting rid of it, which means they are spending rounds not making the npc dazed.
like others have said, fire resists work well....
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No one is challenging your system mastery. Everyone here has been, basically, saying "You're right. Dazing Spell is a brutal metamagic effect and costs less than Quickened Spell which is arguably weaker. Here are some nuances that maybe you missed but if you have those covered, then the encounters as designed are weak to this tactic and you cannot do much about it". I'm sorry if you got the feeling that folks were insulting your prowess as a Table Tamer. I certainly wasn't and I didn't get the impression it was happening from the others.
Good luck looking into alternate solutions. I will say this: If NPC's have to cast spells on each other to handle spells being cast by the PC's, that's called tactics, not a broken module. Also, many canned adventures do not suit as wide a variety of builds and combinations as there are tables. As I am sure you have experienced, many classes have options that trump the challenges presented in the released content, particularly if that content was created before the options became available. (See the Gunslinger and Alchemist complaints for reference). This leads to an inevitable choice from a Game Master, "Do I run it as printed, or do I adapt it to what my group can do and challenge them". If you're not running for PFS, then I would always tailor the canned content. It's like buying a taco and then going home to add sour cream and guacamole because none was available at the restaurant.
"You're right. Dazing Spell is a brutal metamagic effect...
That's actually the first time anyone has said anything even remotely like that. So far everyone has stated the latter.
the encounters as designed are weak
I get your argument about the Taco. Food always gets my attention.
I don't want to get into an arms race with my players, but I'll admit you do have a point.
The Dragon has resist energy so he'll have that cast on him.
The Wriggling man might have some spells to boost the others.
It's still a little cheesy but its at least plausible.
Nyrissa isn't going to leave her house. She feels Briars presence She isn't going to make herself a target.
I don't allow anything in a mod that wasn't available when the mod was released
Daze is brutal because next to nothing has immunity to it
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dazing spells don't come into effect organically until lvl 7 and then it's for one round, and it still gets a save. At that point there's resilient sphere, Enervation, etc...
At the level he's dealing with (15) there's even worse culprits than dazing. It's great, but it's hardly earth shattering stuff compared to what control focused wizards already do. (hello quicked cloudkill and force cage)
True.....except so many things immune to cloudkill. Your golem, incorporeal etc is still dazed
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I had the same problem really and after much analyzing I concluded that traits that reduce metamagically adjusted spells are the main factor. Stacking 2x of these traits works also and you can get Dazed (Selective with rod) Fireball as early as lv7 wizard.
Daze is pretty sick effect. Nothing is immune to it. Even my fireballing sorcerer agreed that swarm shouldn't be dazed by spell. That just became silly.
Aside from cool suggestions that people already made, I see that rare few suggested anything acceptable and easy to add to encounters. I will add few, but I am not sure if it will help.
- If the party plans to use their boomsticks on single encounter, permit it, but if they teleport back and rest to get ready and blow up next, reset all encounters. It makes sense for enemies to call for backup in dungeon-like complexes. This should force party to conserve spells.
- Cover & Improved Cover grant bonuses to Reflex saves. Cheap way to help out your little critters.
- Potion of Resist Fire/Cold/Acid/Electricity 10, can slow up the damage.
- Advanced or Fiendish template are cheap and good ways to boost critters. It's only natural that party should feel challenged. I am not saying that you should "counter" your spellcasters, but just give critters a chance at least.
- Do note that PC's should be hero's. If they rip apart some encounters, it instills them some selfconfidence, but almost every encounter is a threat. Even a simple commoner could try to coup de grace downed PC, sure it's radical, but it's a threat.
- In kingmaker, I would grant every NPC a chance to know who the PC's really are and prepare accordingly.
- Low Int monsters won't stand much chance tho. Play the animals as they should be played. Don't expect much from these.
- Add things that seem logical yet that might be challenging. I added a small semi-ambush in one encounter against PC's (it was a hill giant patrol). What happened is that one giant threw a ripped out tree which trapped a single spellcaster and his animal companion. Several PC's were also without armor and entire encounter was a threat to them.
This is all I could come up with. Key is to be prepared for those dazing conditions.
Adam
Dazing a swarm makes sense to me. As if swarms need a boost in power.
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"You're right. Dazing Spell is a brutal metamagic effect...That's actually the first time anyone has said anything even remotely like that. So far everyone has stated the latter.
I think that's because they haven't seen it in action by someone who knows how to use it.
In my campaign I have two players, one a paladin with a heavy dual-wield build, the other is a scorcerer with a conjuration focus, who has taken the various bloodline and feats that allow you to apply metamagic for reduced costs and increase DCs, and Dazing Spell.
His bread and butter is dazing pellet blast and persistent dazing pellet blast, with dazing acid arrow for the lower slot cost option.
These conjuration effects bypass spell resistance. They are only rarely stopped by damage reduction. With persistence forcing a reroll on a save it's rare for a creature to resist, likewise damage over time it's rare for a creature to make multiple saves in a row neccessary to stave off daze-lock, and in the rare event that they can make the saves, being a sorcerer provides an ample supply of spell slots to simply try again or refresh as needed. Being able to switch from spells that target reflex to will means it's very rare for a monster to have a decent save chance. Once the monster fails their save, the paladin's damage output from mutiple attacks using smite evil is simply withering. Even if a monster could survive the onslought until they eventually can take another action, the fight is essentially over.
The combination of practically (if not literally) all monsters being suseptable to the daze condition, being able to be used so as to bypass spell resistance, and target the weaker save, and forcing multiple saves, makes dazing spell lay way outside the limitations of all other spells and spell effects of it's type
As a result, when used optimally, it totally changes combat, especially against solo monsters. The stand up fight, the kind of fight the game is largely based on, is out of the question. To be any kind of threat, the encounter either needs to uniquely tailored to counter this one effect, or it's a gunfight where the monster needs to take out the socerer before he has a chance to employ it, or it's a cat and mouse game where the monster needs to be able to use special movement and concealment to hit and run (usually at the cost of not being able to employ it's own signature abilities).
The problem with dazing spell is it's SO versitile it can be applied to every encoutner, and when it is, the whole game becomes about dealing with that one single ability. I think that's the definition of a game breaking power.
In any event I hopped on to check if they got around to fixing it yet. I'm expecting eventually they'll add a 'can't use for x time after the first secessful save' rule like monster abilities and the daze cantrip, or eave each round like hold person, or something to limit it to only will saves, or allow spell resistance to apply regardless if the underlying spell does, or finally officially define the daze effect a lesser version of stun, extending stun immunity to cover daze, or something like that. I agree with you, as it stands, dazing spell, and daze generally, is a serious latent problem. Only thing stopping from being a real game breaker is not enough people realise it and use it.
I'd consider house ruling it, add an anti-stun-lock limitation like everything else that does what it does has, until they get around to doing something official.