Good morning, comrades.
I am currently in the design process for a necromancer NPC. My main set of questions arises from figuring CR for when he creates/animates undead.
1) The feat Command Undead states "You can control any number of undead, so long as their total Hit Dice do not exceed your cleric level." Is this a hard cap, or can you boost your effective cleric level in some way?
2) So, it seems pretty clear that any minions via Create Undead plus any other acolytes or servants the cleric has would go into the CR calculation for the encounter. What about Animate Dead? As opposed to Create Dead, it's a standard action spell. They are also controlled indefinitely. So, should I treat this like any summon spell, in that it does not increase the CR? This seems kind of like a questionable way to artificially pad the CR: fill out the CR with the cleric, his acolytes and Created Undead, and then pile on Animate Dead after the encounter starts...
3) Let's talk about the Robe of Bones. It doesn't actually say what kind of action is required to detach an embroidery, so my GM senses are telling me it should be a standard action like Animate Undead But here, we run into a similar issue as above. Does this not count toward CR? Furthermore, would such an undead creature still get the bonus for being created/summoned into a Descrated area? Would it gain any of the relevant bonuses (boni?) from feats that boost created/animated undead?
4) Considering all the above points, if Animated Undead and those created via the Robe do *not* count toward the CR of the encounter, then a Necromancer hiding in an Invisibility or Greater Darkness spell is a seemingly endless fountain of undeath. A Death cleric hiding in a Greater Darkness can then channel negative energy, healing his minions and himself while simultaneously damaging his foes. This seems like a pretty untenable fight.
If these added foes *do* count toward the CR, I suppose my only option would be to spread them out within the lair as separate encounters?
Does anyone have experience running necromancer NPCs that might be willing to give me your two copper?
For concerns about CR, yes count all creatures to determine the CR of the encounter, even if they were created by the necromancer. Even if the don't start the battle animated by necromancer, the fact that s/he could have many suitable bodies laying around to be animated by the necromancer with a single standard action means that if you don't include them in the CR the battle could quickly become lopsided and unfair towards the PCs. Clearly, you already knew this since you said that you think it's basically padding the CR of the fight. Although do remember that you get to choose the CR of the fight as the GM, and you could make it overwhelmingly changingly if you so choose.
I would assume the Robe of Bones requires a standard action to use as well. I would not factor this into the CR, but rememebr NPC gear does factor into CR and this robe does eat into the NPCs wealth to do other things, and each creature requires a standard aciton to create. And are subsequently not immeadiately under his control. He has to cast command undead to control them.
Claxon, would you also increase the CR of a wizard using Summon Monster?
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Skeletons and zombies are profoundly stupid, so a well designed lair could have multiple rooms full of them, uncontrolled, that simply can't get out (because it requires pushing a sequence of blocks in order, or a complicated latch that requires you to press down on one thing while twisting another counter-clockwise three times, which a creature with a 0 intelligence will literally never figure out, because it can no more 'figure something out' than it can grant wishes or claps it's hands and summon faeries). These rooms, designed right, could have some sort of mechanism by which the necromancer can bypass them, or move through them, out of reach of the mindless uncontrolled undead, again, requiring some sort of clever trick that an intruder wouldn't know (like some sort of drawbridge over the 'zombie moat' that requires the user to know how to activate, and, more importantly, requires the user to know about the little catch that causes it to tip over and deposit you into the pit, if you don't step in the right place half way across...).
If stuff goes bad, and the intruders spike the doors open and let your free-range zombies and skeletons loose, the necromancer can *then* take control of them, as needed, or use other means of avoiding them, like a hide vs. undead scroll or potion or spell in a ring of spell storing he keeps handy. (And, from a cinematic standpoint, what would be more appropriate for the necromancer to end up backing across such a walkway during the final battle and a rope snapping and him tumbling into his own zombie pit and being torn to shreds?)
Another way for a lair-bound necromancer to buff his command numbers is to Craft Wondrous Item to have a once/month animate dead item, or some sort of blood-red oil that he has spread on a dozen bodies in his laboratory, that aren't animated *yet,* but will rise at a command, having been pre-anointed, so that, as intruders destroy his current animated and controlled minions, and thus 'free up command slots,' he can speak a word and a new contingent arises, under his control. Such a setup shouldn't cost much more than a scroll of animate dead, since it's basically the same effect, only usable across the room and with a special effect stolen from the old Death Master class, from earlier editions of another game.
Other ways to have more, would be to take Leadership, and have 1 HD skeletons as your '1st level followers' and 2 HD zombies as your '2nd level followers,' etc. Your cohort can be an acolyte to a death god, or necromancer-wizard, or oracle of bones, and have their completely *own* set of commanded undead, using channel energy / Command Undead, and / or spells like command undead and animate dead.
Something with less corpses involved might be a necromancer who made their lair in a haunted manor, or the site of an ancient massacre, and have done the homework and learned exactly where each haunt is, how to avoid it, and arranged for intruders who don't know any better to stumble right into each and every one of them. As long as the necromancer is able to figure this stuff out, he's basically got a bunch of free 'traps' that 'came with the place.'
Note that if you have a lair, as a necromancer, you may very well have desecrate and unhallow spells available to further buff minions or debuff players. And note that undead created inside a desecrate spell have some bonuses even if they're not currently inside one. An arcane necromancer might well have a divine minion or ally who can cast these spells.
You would have to decide if those buffs made the encounters in the lair worth a higher CR, but note that they also give you the abili to have mere skeletons/zombies still be a viable foe for higher-level PCs. Also, this can add considerably to the survivability of necromancers.
And, yes, an invisible/dark-shrouded evil cleric with sanctuary up channelling negative energy to buff his minions can be a very nasty encounter for the PCs. A prepared necromancer in his lair SHOULD be a fearsome foe.
Also consider skeleton archers behind bars, undead minions told to pull levers that river traps if enemies enter certain places, skeletons with bells attached to their armor so the alarm goes up if they get into a fight and start moving, a necromancer using magic jar to possess undead minions and cast spells at PCs from the safety of a disposable body (making sure that each skeleton/zombie has a spell component pouch...), etc.
Claxon, would you also increase the CR of a wizard using Summon Monster?
Is he casting in during battle or already has the monstered summon in advance?
If he cast during battle then I wouldn't increase the CR. The casting subsumes his action and the spell does what it does.
If he cast before hand and the monster will last through the entire combat until destoryed (i.e. they don't run out of time and desummon) then I would increase the CR, because whats the difference between a wizard with 4 real lions or a wizard with 4 summoned lions. Not very much if the lions do exactly as the wizard desires.
Water hazards and poison.
Since the undead don't care about that, you can go nuts. Cover the portcullis with contact poison, so that the guy trying to lift it gets hosed.
Fill the zombie filled pit with water, it's not like they need to breathe.
If he cast during battle then I wouldn't increase the CR. The casting subsumes his action and the spell does what it does.
Why, then, would a necromancer who casts Animate Dead in combat boost the CR, when a wizard casting Summon Monster would not?
Not trying to be argumentative, just seeking reasoning.
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If he cast during battle then I wouldn't increase the CR. The casting subsumes his action and the spell does what it does.Why, then, would a necromancer who casts Animate Dead in combat boost the CR, when a wizard casting Summon Monster would not?
Not trying to be argumentative, just seeking reasoning.
That is a good question. Animating during combat is using up a spell slot he could have used for black tentacles or something, eating up some of his WBL he could have used on a potion of cure serious wounds, and an action he could have used smacking someone with enervation. I'd be inclined to consider creatures summoned or animated *during* combat, eating up resources and, more importantly, an action, to be part of the CR of the spellcaster.
Those standing around already (though planar ally / binding / create undead / previous uses of animate dead / etc.), I'd be more inclined to add to the CR.
Other things, like cohorts and followers from Leadership, I'd adjudicate on a case by case basis. Generally, the 'opportunity cost' of losing that feat to Leadership is *hugely* overcome by the plethora of actions you can get out of those followers, and the utility of that cohort. Even if the cohort was a dedicated item crafter, it still might bump the CR of the master by +1 if he's got PC level gear because of it.
I'm not sure a hard and fast rule is necessarily the best thing, in this case, as some summoning / minion situations should definitely raise the CR, while others should not, depending on resources spent by the bad-guy, and, ideally, the GM should be able to 'feel' when those situations come up.
Good morning, comrades.
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4) Considering all the above points, if Animated Undead and those created via the Robe do *not* count toward the CR of the encounter, then a Necromancer hiding in an Invisibility or Greater Darkness spell is a seemingly endless fountain of undeath. A Death cleric hiding in a Greater Darkness can then channel negative energy, healing his minions and himself while simultaneously damaging his foes. This seems like a pretty untenable fight.
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Not simultaneously, unless there's a feat that allows that.
Channel Energy (Su): Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.A good cleric (or one who worships a good deity) channels positive energy and can choose to deal damage to undead creatures or to heal living creatures. An evil cleric (or one who worships an evil deity) channels negative energy and can choose to deal damage to living creatures or to heal undead creatures. A neutral cleric who worships a neutral deity (or one who is not devoted to a particular deity) must choose whether she channels positive or negative energy. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric casts spontaneous cure or inflict spells (see spontaneous casting).
Channeling energy ... A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability.
Bold mine.
If he cast during battle then I wouldn't increase the CR. The casting subsumes his action and the spell does what it does.Why, then, would a necromancer who casts Animate Dead in combat boost the CR, when a wizard casting Summon Monster would not?
Not trying to be argumentative, just seeking reasoning.
Looking back to my first post I failed to explain things as I had them in my head. And I meant to include some caveats to it, which I didn't make those adbundantly clear.
If the necromancer has set it up in a way that he has some very large potent corpses available to cast animate dead as his first action I would consider them as part of his CR. Mostly because you could animate some very mighty foes with this with one action. I also agree with set that there isn't a clear hard and fast rule for how this should be laid out, and this is really just my personal feelings on it. In general one standard action (Animate Dead) could (in a Desecrated area) easily allow a necromancer to create these, or things like them.
In general I also think undead are more powerful than summoned creatures. Summoned creatures can be stymied by first level spells like Protection from X. And they can be banished and dismissed. Not to say that there aren't undead destoryign specific spells as well, I just generally view undead as more difficult to defeat.
Ultimately there are no hard and fast rules about whether or not you should count certain enemies as part of the CR of a fight. And it's easy to think of examples that that force answers to go back and forth.
The party stumbles across a much higher level evil wizard. The wizard decides to cast a summon monster spell that would summon creatures that would be an appropriate challenge for the party if they weren't summoned creatures but regular creatures. The wizard then teleports away on his next turn. What is the CR of that fight? Do you give them full experience for 'beating" the wizard if they survive the summoned monsters? Do you give them no XP since summons wouldn't normally be added to CR? Do you give them XP for an CR encounter equal to what the summons would have been if they were real creatures, or maybe -1?
Ultimately I think the best way to handle this is to get rid of the XP system. Then craft a fight to be as challenging as you think it should be, you can still use CR as guidance. Then have players level at whatever pace you think is right.