Hello, everyone! I think most players would agree that Rogues need a few buffs. Well, at least I think so. So I thought about making a few improvements to the class.
I might be wrong here, but I think most players who decide to play a Rogue want a clever character who can get out of trouble with his quick-thinking, agility and charm. Not necessarily a character who deals absurd amounts of damage per round.
Focus on Dex, Int and Cha seems to fit the iconic Rogue much better than extra damage dice.
So this is what I came up with:
1- Either reduce Sneak Attack progression by half (for every class with this class feature, not only Rogues).
or
2- Restrict SA to be applicable only against enemies who are denied their Dex bonus to AC. Flanking does not automatically means SA.
"What???!!! You're nerfing Rogues??? Screw you, Lemmy! You suck!"
Yeah, I know this is a nerf, but bear with me... Rogues will be compensated. Keep reading! Also, no need to hurt my feelings :(.
Trapspotter: Rogues get this ability for free at 4th level. This way stealing their iconic role is much harder.
Improved Evasion: Rogues get this for free at 9th level. Really I never understood why they don't get this already. Rogue higher levels have a huge vacuum of class features, and Improved Evasion seems to fit perfectly the flavor of the class.
Poison Stuff Rogues get all the poison abilities given to Ninjas. Will this make ninjas feel obsolete? Perhaps. I think they'll have to be satisfied with Swift Action Invisibility, Mirror Image and all other cool stuff they get. Ideally, I'd like to fuse both classes, but that's an idea for another day.
Pretty minor stuff so far... Lets give them an extra lass feature, shall we? How about daily doses of poison. Say, Int modifier + Half Rogue level doses per day. Fort save DC = 10 + 1/2 Rogue level + Int Modifier. This particular poison is applied through injury and can be applied to your weapons as a move action.
- Assault Leader: Adds a +1 bonus to attack rolls made against opponents the Rogue is flanking. This bonus is increased by +1 at Rogue level 10 and every 5 levels thereafter. (Prerequisite: Rogue level 6)
- Black Market Connections: Works like the Deep Pockets ability of the Pathfinder Chronicler PrC, except it doesn't grant the bonus to carrying capacity. (I love this ability. I'm honestly sad this is not a real Rogue Talent. I know this steps on the toes of PF Chroniclers, but I've never ever seen anyone playing the class, so hopefully it won't matter much)
- Befuddling Strike: Whenever you confirm a critical hit or deal Sneak Attack damage against an enemy, you can make a Feint combat maneuver as a free action.
- Deft Palm: Once per turn, a Rogue can use a swift action to make a Sleight of Hand check resisted by her target's Perception check. If the Rogue has the higher result, she gains a +1 bonus to all attacks made against that target. This bonus increases by +1 at 8th level and every 4 levels thereafter. (Prerequisite: Rogue level 4)
- Finesse Rogue: If you already have the Weapon Finesse feat, it gives the Rogue another feat she qualifies for. (Now you can grab Weapon Finesse at 1st level and not feel like you wasted a feat one level later)
- Force of Personality: Get Force of Personality as a bonus feat. (In case you don't know, Force of Personality is a 3.5 feat that allows you to use your Cha modifier instead of Wisdom on your bonus saves. I allow this feat in my games because I think it helps a lot of classes, and if Clerics and Inquisitors get to use Wisdom on Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate checks, then Bards, Rogues and Sorcerers get to add Cha to Will saves. Fair is fair.
- Charmer: Get a dodge bonus to AC and CMD equal to your Cha modifier against all attacks made by creatures to whom you dealt precision damage in the last round. This bonus lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Cha modifier. (Rogues now have a decent AC. Sometimes.)
- Distracting Attack: Whenever you hit an enemy, it suffers a penalty equal to your Charisma modifier + 1/4 your Rogue level to the DC of all concentration checks before your next turn.
- Honeyed Words: Your words are so convincing, you can affect intelligent creatures as if you had enchanted them. If you talk to a target for 1min, you can cast an effect identical to the Charm Person spell on them. This is a language dependent effect. The target can make a will save to negate this effect (DC = 10 + 1/2 your ranks in Diplomacy + Cha modifier). Whether or not the save is successful, you can not target that same creature again with this ability for the next 24h. (Prerequisite: Rogue level 10)
- Iron Guts: Rogues get a +1 bonus to all saves made to resist poison. This bonus increases by +1 at Rogue level 6 and every 3 levels thereafter. (Really, Rogues should have some sort of bonus to resist poison! It's an iconic tool of the trade for them!)
- Minor Magic: Pick 2 cantrips from the wizard spell list. You can cast them at will as an SLA. Your CL for this ability is equal to your Rogue level. The save DC for these cantrips is Int based. (Prerequisite: Int 10). Better than the original version, because 3 cantrips a day is just pathetic.
- Major Magic: : Pick 1 1st-level spell from the Wizard spell list. You can cast it 3 times per day as an SLA. Your CL for this ability is equal to your Rogue level. The save DC for the spell is Int based. (Prerequisite: Int 11). Just because 3 daily uses sounds better than 2.
- Nimble Climber: You get a Climb speed equal to half your base movement speed. (Minimum 5ft).
- Getaway Artist: Make a Reflex save instead of a Fortitude or Will save whenever one of those would be necessary to resist effects that cause you to be paralyzed, petrified or staggered. (Prerequisite: Rogue level 10). This one is probably too good. At higher levels, saves are very important, and Rogues have problems with them. This ability makes it much harder to imprison Rogues. Makes sense to me.
- Powerful Sneak: Treat all 1s and 2s rolled on Sneak Attack damage dice as if they were 3s. (Prerequisite: Rogue level 6) (Now the most useless Rogue talent ever actually works!)
- Slippery Mind: Make a Reflex save instead of a Will save to resist charm and compulsion effects. (Prerequisite: Rogue level 10)
- Surprise Attack: Your Sneak Attack automatically deals maximum damage against opponents who are unaware of your presence. (Now when you sneak on the town guard and slice his throat, he dies.)
- Skill Mastery: Whenever you make an skill check for a skill in which you have at least 1 rank you can roll twice and take the better result. (Prerequisite: Rogue level 8). (Look at that, now Rogues can actually be better at skills, instead of just as good as anyone who has as may ranks.)
- Swift Poisoning: The Rogue can use a swift action instead of a standard or move action to apply poison to an weapon she is currently wielding. (Particularly useful thanks to the "Rogue Poison" class feature I mentioned earlier)
- Underhanded: Deal extra damage equal to your Int modifier whenever you attack with an weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse. This is considered precision damage. The maximum extra damage per attack is equal to your Rogue level. (Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse). This one. This is the reason I reduce SA damage. Raising Int increases your damage! That means more skills and makes your damage output more reliable and less situational. Limiting it to Rogue level avoids dippers.
I'm perfectly aware some of these ideas might be too much, which is why I'd like to hear what you guys and gals have to say.
So... What do you think?
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I think you reduced their already weak damage for no reason, because none of those changes are strong enough to really matter. Surprise Attack and Underhanded should probably just be added straight onto the Rogue as is--they're both great ideas that should exist, but they're not strong enough to nerf Sneak Attack.
And while I would love to play a non-magical character focused on Intelligence and Charisma, I'm pretty sure the majority of the playerbase wants to be Rogues because video games taught them that they do the most damage, plus a lot of people have a Dex fetish (I'll admit, I did when I was a little kid).
The biggest problems facing rogues are:
1) MADness -- Rogues have the worst save progression of any class, and they are expected to: fight (so they need strength for damage) in melee (so they will get hit back and need Con), survive in light armor and be stealthy (Dex), have even more skills than the class gives them (they need Int), find traps (Wisdom for perception, plus their terrible Will), and play the face (Charisma). Not going to happen.
2) Accuracy -- Rogues are expect to fight and (thanks to video games) are expected to do respectable damage, however, the rogue and the monk are the only 3/4 BAB classes with no way to self buff their way up to "effectively" full BAB. Arcana pools, judgements, mutagen, actual spells, etc. all make every other character in the game that is expected to fight more accurate than the Rogue (and Monk).
3) Relevancy -- The Rogue is the "skill class." They have more skills than any other class (except the Bard gets phantom skills and so still beats them here) and several class features to enhance the ones they have (trap stuff and most of the talents). However, most skills are irrelevant after the early levels. Perception stays mostly good, UMD is great until you can land a 20 with ease, and you need a baseline set of knowledges to identify monsters, but that's kind of it. Being the "skill guy" is not a useful thing by mid-game.
Spells > everything that isn't spells, and the thing spells hit the hardest are skills. Travel becomes irrelevant (Climb, Swim, Survival, etc.), opening doors and disabling traps becomes pointless (though finding them at least is useful--too bad Bards can do it and cast spells), the spontaneous casters and Paladin are WAY better at Face skills (and they're mostly for beating early game obstacles anyway, since it's unlikely the world-eating Lich-god is going to negotiate), Stealth does nothing against end-game monster senses, and you can't keep up with CMDs to make Acrobatics useful for avoiding AoOs...
It's sad, really, but spells kill skills fairly quickly, and thus kill the Rogue. I don't think you can fix the Rogue without fundamentally changing the skill system and/or magic system. Until then, they're going to suck.
And don't get me wrong--I love the concept of Rogues. I play most of my characters "roguish," but I don't make any of them actual Rogues, and never have.
Finesse rogue should bestow the "agile weapon" effect on all light weapons and 1 handed piercing/slashing weapons if the rogue already has weapon finesse. It's similar to getting dervish dance at lvl 2, but better, and eleminates the need for too much str, and costly TWF.
Trap sense should be a flat competence bonus to all saves (for the barbarian as well), and you need a talent that lets you add your int to perception and sense motive like the sleepless detective. That cuts down the need for wis as much, and helps in the save department.
Those two changes alone answer a lot of MPL's issues without getting too crazy. With a dex/int focus you stay on top with the sheer number of different skills you know without having to tap magic resources. Your accuracy is excellent for melee and ranged (though I still wouldn't TWF). And the MADness is way less crazy.
One final thought: an ability that lets you use activated magical items at a 1/2 caster lvl or even full. Getting multiple bolts per casting out of a lvl 1 wand of magic missile and such... That takes care of that last point.
I'm pretty sure the majority of the playerbase wants to be Rogues because video games taught them that they do the most damage and they have a Dex fetish.
I'm honestly hard pressed to think of a single game where of the class choices the Rogue-ish character is going to do the most damage.
Dragon Age: Nope. Mages kick everyone's ass at everything, including fighting with weapons.
Kingdoms of Amalur: Rogue can dish it out okay, but they're more DoT and debuff based (like a LOT of games). Warriors (Damage Per Hit) and Mages (Damage Per Second) beat them on the pure damage scale.
Star Wars games: Lol. Blasters in a game with Jedi.
Dungeon Defenders: Huntress is trap based and does pretty good spike damage, but has less solo DPS.
Borderlands: Okay, you got me here, Mordecai is a damage beast because he can ignore shields and can rock the +80% fire rate on machine pistols...oh wait the Siren exists NVM Double Anarchies rock the world.
Borderlands 2: The Assassin ain't got nothing on the Commando or Gunzerker most of the time. And the Psycho destroys both of them in the damage game (albeit only in melee range).
Skyrim: Gratz, a game where sneaky types can kill most things in a single shot with a sneak attack. Point MPL.
Mass Effect series: Infiltrator is good. Might be another point for you. Then again, Soldier wrecks things to, as does Vanguard in 2 (assuming Normal or lower difficulty). Burst vs DPS in most cases, I call this a tie.
Brink: Nimble guys get weaker weapons, so yeah.
That's a quick glance down my Steam library and Xbox game case. The only games where the "Rogue" is the most powerful class is a game where the "Rogue" is the ONLY "class" (Dishonored, Splinter Cell, Assassin's Creed, etc.)
I think you reduced their already weak damage for no reason, because none of those changes are strong enough to really matter. Surprise Attack and Underhanded should probably just be added straight onto the Rogue as is--they're both great ideas that should exist, but they're not strong enough to nerf Sneak Attack.
Finesse rogue should bestow the "agile weapon" effect on all light weapons and 1 handed piercing/slashing weapons if the rogue already has weapon finesse. It's similar to getting dervish dance at lvl 2, but better, and eleminates the need for too much str, and costly TWF.
I try to avoid Dex-to-damage effects. Dex is already a heavy-loaded stat, no need for extreme SADness. With Underhanded, Rogues are able to add Int to all their attacks, not only to those against flat-footed/flanked enemies. This basically means Rogues trade spiky situational damage for consistent moderate damage.
1) MADness -- Rogues have the worst save progression of any class, and they are expected to: fight (so they need strength for damage) in melee (so they will get hit back and need Con), survive in light armor and be stealthy (Dex), have even more skills than the class gives them (they need Int), find traps (Wisdom for perception, plus their terrible Will), and play the face (Charisma). Not going to happen.
Weapon Finesse and Force of Personality take care of MADness. They still need good attributes, but they can at least ignore Str and Wis a bit. The save boosting Rogue Talents also help to keep Rogues alive at higher levels.
2) Accuracy -- Rogues are expect to fight and (thanks to video games) are expected to do respectable damage, however, the rogue and the monk are the only 3/4 BAB classes with no way to self buff their way up to "effectively" full BAB. Arcana pools, judgements, mutagen, actual spells, etc. all make every other character in the game that is expected to fight more accurate than the Rogue (and Monk).
Assault Leader and Deft Palm increase their accuracy considerably. Underhand gives them reliable damage. Therefore bumping their DPR to acceptable levels (I hope).
3) Relevancy -- The Rogue is the "skill class." They have more skills than any other class (except the Bard gets phantom skills and so still beats them here) and several class features to enhance the ones they have (trap stuff and most of the talents). However, most skills are irrelevant after the early levels. Perception stays mostly good, UMD is great until you can land a 20 with ease, and you need a baseline set of knowledges to identify monsters, but that's kind of it. Being the "skill guy" is not a useful thing by mid-game.
Making skills compete with spells is beyond the scope of this homebrew, though. That requires a system overhaul, not class adjustments. However, I did try to make it so Rogues can at least claim to be the best at skills once again. With talents such as Skill Mastery.
They can also at least have some magic-ish effects with Black-Market Connections (which allows them to "buy" scrolls and potions in the middle of nowhere!), Honeyed Worlds and Minor/Major Magic. They will never be wizards of course, but they can at least be effective and have unique tricks.
I'm honestly hard pressed to think of a single game where of the class choices the Rogue-ish character is going to do the most damage.
I'd like to submit to your list:
--Every MMO ever
--The vast majority of old school console RPGs
And really, even if the rogue isn't actually the best character, they're still often advertised as the most damaging (case in point, Dragon Age, where the Mage is so unfairly better at everything, but they're not intended to be), and that advertising has more effect on player psychology than actual game breakdown does.
Fine! I quit!
If flanking doesn't provide sneak attacks, I'd like a rogue talent that lets it.
Can you explain the logic behind Charmer?
I gotta admit. The current campaign I'm in has really changed my mind on the whole 'spells >>>> skills' thing. Why waste valuable spells per day on stuff you can just do mundanely? I have better things to do with those spell slots.
And FWIW, the reason rogues didn't get unlimited uses of the cantrips from Minor Magic was so they wouldn't have a touch-AC sneak attack platform. The damage from sneak attack is very good, and it's partially balanced out by the lack of ability to strongly buff their to-hit.
Most 3/4ths classes allow ok buffs to their to-hit, but the rogue skips that and just piles on damage for if they hit.
I'm honestly hard pressed to think of a single game where of the class choices the Rogue-ish character is going to do the most damage.I'd like to submit to your list:
--Every MMO ever
--The vast majority of old school console RPGsAnd really, even if the rogue isn't actually the best character, they're still often advertised as the most damaging (case in point, Dragon Age, where the Mage is so unfairly better at everything, but they're not intended to be), and that advertising has more effect on player psychology than actual game breakdown does.
Hey, MMOs hardly count as games. ;)
My experience with old RPGs is mostly limited to handhelds, I can't speak to them. The old Final Fantasy games I've played never had that issue, and the Sa Ga game only technically did because robots + stat boost from items + agility weapons = Nigh unhittable, super hard hitting beast, so they hardly count too.
I'm just saying I don't think you're correct in your assumption that that's the case, especially since most players of old console RPGs are unlikely to be new TRPG players (and therefore aren't contributing to this phenomenon you seem to imply is occurring, where new players are influenced by games to think Rogues are the best).
Now, if you want to talk movies, anime, or books, where the sneaky and/or speedy character is generally the most powerful, I can see that one.
Rule of Cool is usually tilted towards speedsters/rogues rather than bricks/fighters.
Can you explain the logic behind Charmer?
I gotta admit. The current campaign I'm in has really changed my mind on the whole 'spells >>>> skills' thing. Why waste valuable spells per day on stuff you can just do mundanely? I have better things to do with those spell slots.
Charmer requires 1 minute of interaction (so no in-combat application or surprise attack), can't be done before 10th level and can't be used on the same target more than once per day. Also, you many not have a Rogue around. This is a single 1st level spell. Hardly enough to obsolete Bards and Wizards.
And FWIW, the reason rogues didn't get unlimited uses of the cantrips from Minor Magic was so they wouldn't have a touch-AC sneak attack platform. The damage from sneak attack is very good, and it's partially balanced out by the lack of ability to strongly buff their to-hit.
Ranged Sneak Attack is pretty difficult to pull off. It's not like they can do that every round, even with unlimited cantrips. Otherwise they could simply use firearms for the same effect.
Most 3/4ths classes allow ok buffs to their to-hit, but the rogue skips that and just piles on damage for if they hit.
Yup, and we all know how well that turned out. My idea here is for Rogues to have damage output that is less "spiky" and more consistent.
Fine! I quit!
????
Fine! I quit!????
Just playing... But seriously, that's about my best shot.
Just playing... But seriously, that's about my best shot.Fine! I quit!????
It seems I'm missing something here... Oo'
EDIT: Ah, of course! You Rogue buff thread!
WTF! If I had remembered that, it would have spared me from a lot of work... -.-'.
I worked on this homebrew based on a character of a friend of mine, and it started with simple ideas, I didn't think of revisiting Rogue Talents until later...
Okay, now I feel stupid... -.-'
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I'm just saying I don't think you're correct in your assumption that that's the case, especially since most players of old console RPGs are unlikely to be new TRPG players (and therefore aren't contributing to this phenomenon you seem to imply is occurring, where new players are influenced by games to think Rogues are the best).
Yeah, ok, so I'll say it:
I mostly meant MMOs.Sorry, they may barely count as games for you, but for most new RPG players, they're the closest thing to Pathfinder that they've encountered. Everyone plays those games--there are so many MMO players, it's weirder to find a guy that hasn't played one than one that has (well, a guy under 35 at least).
And yeah, in those games, Rogues are always DPS, and in fact, the "team-focused" DPS because their primary damage is from literally stabbing people in the back. In a good lot of them, they're the ones that lead the DPS charts, too.
But really, the belief was there back in old school games, too, though. The Rogue (and Rangers thanks to Skills and Powers, my favorite rpg supplement) did actually out damage the Fighter in AD&D, for example, assuming a backstab, since they got to multiply their damage, rather than add some lame d6s to it.
But yeah, I basically just meant MMOs, where Rogue and DPS are practically synonymous.
Can you explain the logic behind Charmer?Charmer requires 1 minute of interaction (so no in-combat application or surprise attack), can't be done before 10th level and can't be used on the same target more than once per day. Also, you many not have a Rogue around. This is a single 1st level spell. Hardly enough to obsolete Bards and Wizards.
Huh?
"Charmer: Get a dodge bonus to AC and CMD equal to your Cha modifier against all attacks made by creatures to whom you dealt precision damage in the last round. This bonus lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Cha modifier. (Rogues now have a decent AC. Sometimes.)"
I think he wants to know the in game justification for that ability--the one you made up.
Fair enough. I was joking about the "not real games" thing, but I generally don't play MMOs. And when I do, it's as a magic user.
Because lightning bolts >>>> swords.
]Huh?
"Charmer: Get a dodge bonus to AC and CMD equal to your Cha modifier against all attacks made by creatures to whom you dealt precision damage in the last round. This bonus lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Cha modifier. (Rogues now have a decent AC. Sometimes.)"
I think he wants to know the in game justification for that ability--the one you made up.
...
I mistook Charmer for Honeyed Tongue. My bad. -.-'.(Goood one, Lemmy, forget the details of your own homebrew not 10 posts later... ¬¬')
The idea was that the Rogue would attack an enemy and taunt it. The enemy would be angered or distracted by this taunt and therefore lose accuracy on attacks made against the Rogue.
This bonus only applies against one enemy at a time, and only for the Rogue, so buff spells still have their place.
MPL vs Ryn: focus people ;)
Lem: I was talking about my above suggestions not necissarily my own "rogue fix". You shot down my finesse rogue idea which was critical to addressing MPL's very valid assessment. That's why I quit... But I'm back...
Ah, I see... Obviously I'm my mind is not in its sharpest moment right now. lol.
MPL vs Ryn: focus people ;)
I was totally focused. On the separate topic MPL and I were discussing. ;)
MPL vs Ryn: focus people ;)I was totally focused. On the separate topic MPL and I were discussing. ;)
=P
I have a few more revised Rogue Talents now. I'll post them later, so you guys can tell me what you think of them.
I mean this charmer:
Charmer: Get a dodge bonus to AC and CMD equal to your Cha modifier against all attacks made by creatures to whom you dealt precision damage in the last round. This bonus lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Cha modifier. (Rogues now have a decent AC. Sometimes.)
I don't quite get it. Why would that be charmer? 'Hah HAH! I hit you hard and now you're too charmed to hit be back!' ?
Also, firearms are in a completely different class of touch-AC attacks when compared to at-will cantrips. The differences are so outstanding that I'm honestly wondering how you could even compare them.
One is affected by DR, the other is not.
One requires a lot of gold, the other does not.
One requires two feats to even get to a workable stage, the other does not.
You dont' need to draw and reload one of them, while the other requires that.
One won't blow up in your face, and the other will.
One is completely silent to activate, the other is basically saying 'HEY GUYS, LOOK THIS WAY! BOOOOOM!' (and given how you're probably relying on stealth to get this ranged sneak attack? Yea, that's a huge deal.)
The only similarity is that they hit touch AC.
At will cantrips are just so vastly superior as a way to get ranged sneak attack than firearms that it's barely worthwhile to compare them. When your class is predicated on the idea of 'if you hit, you hit HARD', making the 'if you hit' into a 'when you hit' is not a good design move.
The idea was that the Rogue would attack an enemy and taunt it. The enemy would be angered or distracted by this taunt and therefore lose accuracy on attacks made against the Rogue.
I suppose it could use a better name. I want to keep the old names so that his homebrew can be used with character building software, such as HeroLab.
Perhaps Distracting Attack would be better. And then I find a different Rogue Talent for causing the penalty to concentration checks. Or perhaps Distracting Attack could cause both effects, since disrupting concentration checks is not usually what Rogues focus on, anyway.
Maybe that precision damage is more painful than expected... :)
Also, firearms are in a completely different class of touch-AC attacks when compared to at-will cantrips. The differences are so outstanding that I'm honestly wondering how you could even compare them.
One is affected by DR, the other is not.
One requires a lot of gold, the other does not.
One requires two feats to even get to a workable stage, the other does not.
You dont' need to draw and reload one of them, while the other requires that.
One won't blow up in your face, and the other will.
One is completely silent to activate, the other is basically saying 'HEY GUYS, LOOK THIS WAY! BOOOOOM!' (and given how you're probably relying on stealth to get this ranged sneak attack? Yea, that's a huge deal.)The only similarity is that they hit touch AC.
At will cantrips are just so vastly superior as a way to get ranged sneak attack than firearms that it's barely worthwhile to compare them. When your class is predicated on the idea of 'if you hit, you hit HARD', making the 'if you hit' into a 'when you hit' is not a good design move.
And how is the Rogue dealing Sneak Attack damage every round?
I've seen this particular change in game, it really doesn't change anything about the fact that Ranged Sneak Attack is very difficult to pull off.
I don't see many Rogues dipping 1 level of Wizard or buying wands of Acid Splash for 375gp. If cantrips were so good at dealing Sneak Attack, every Rogue would be doing that.
It's a cantrip.
Make some talents and abilities that let the rogue act as a non magical debuffer.
Every Class should be MAD. This can only be fixed by changing how other classes function.
I'm not sure how that fixes anything. Truly MAD classes are frustrating to build, and making EVERY class like that would reduce the fun of the game as a whole unless point buy values were boosted so much as to make the MADness irrelevant.
And I'm not talking classes like, say, the Paladin who basically just needs Str/Dex (depending on combat style) and Cha, or the Magus who needs Str/Dex and Int, while they both need a bit of Con or anything like that.
I'm talking about classes like the Monk, who needs Str/Dex/Wis to even be mediocre in combat, then Con to avoid dying from all the hits he'll be taking (because unless he maxes Dex and Wis to the exclusion of all else he'll have too low of an AC to do avoid it), leaving them being almost forced to dump Int and Cha to be effective.
Likewise the Rogue, being reliant on Dex/Str/Int/Cha, but he also needs a bit of Con to avoid dying unless HE maxes Dex (and therefore does mediocre at best damage), and Wis because he has a poor Will save as well.
They're poorly designed classes BECAUSE they're MAD, there's no reason to pass that along.
That's why rogue should be a dex/int class with abilities that negate the need for a high wis to perception and will saves. Str rogues are great and all, but far from iconic. A decent con and a spare point or 2 to cha (with max skill ranks in the right areas) help even more.
Rogues are fine as is.
Play a dex rogue. Pump the dex skills. Use two weapon fighting.
Rogues are fine as is.
Play a dex rogue. Pump the dex skills. Use two weapon fighting.
This is the worst way to play Rogue.
This is the worst way to play Rogue.Rogues are fine as is.
Play a dex rogue. Pump the dex skills. Use two weapon fighting.
False.
TWF is a rogue trap... Poor dmg, inconsistent, and a feat tax that is too high.
TWF is a rogue trap... Poor dmg, inconsistent, and a feat tax that is too high.
3 feats isn't all that high...
Double sneak attacks is the best way to run a dex rogue.
Strength rogue is the trap. Being a strength rogue becomes pointless once you find a couple agile weapons. Even without those weapons your damage is still good, your AC is higher and your skills are better for the higher dex mod.
I'm sure you are right in theory, but diminishing returns on itteratives attacks that have a penalty on top of a medium BaB... The math is not adding up. Then factor in how many full attack opportunities you even get in the first place and divide that by amoount of times you will be flanking or get anny SA dice; and those 3 feats (which is a hopeful estimate at best) from a feat starved class... Well, like I said. Good in theory anyway, but hard math kills the concept.
I'm sure you are right in theory, but diminishing returns on itteratives attacks that have a penalty on top of a medium BaB... The math is not adding up. Then factor in how many full attack opportunities you even get in the first place, and those 3 feats (which is a hopeful estimate at best) from a feat starved class... Well, like I said. Good in theory anyway, but hard math kills the concept.
What feats are you getting for your rogues that they are feat starved?
That's the only thing you have issue with in my statement? Personally, I like imp feint and some archery smattering a to supplement power attack and furious focus.
I like versatile attack options, but that's me.
That's the only thing you have issue with in my statement? Personally, I like imp feint and some archery smattering a to supplement power attack and furious focus.
I like versatile attack options, but that's me.
The rest of your statement equally applies to strength.
Ok
Nevermind Marthkus, Byrd. I once thought he had real arguments too, but over time he has made it very clear that he doesn't care about mundane characters. He claims non-casters are fine because he loves casters and want them to stay much more powerful than everything else. Not just powerful, but more powerful than everything else.
He'll say Fighters and Rogues and all other classes are fine because he wants them to be the Wizard's minions at higher levels. He said it himself.
I'm all for dex rogues. But TWF is a trap. Giving the finesse rogue talent the ability to treat any finesable weapon as if it had the agile property cuts down on MADness while still leaving customization options for each individual rogue, even the "TWF trap rogue archetype". It's good for switch hitters, TWFers, dagger throwers, einhanding duelists, and sword and boarders. And it has synergy with all the best dex skills. Having it as an optional talent still lets you play a MAD str build though if you want.
Furthermore: 2-4 lvls of rogue then going into monk gets you something better than TWF (flurry of blows with agile unarmed strikes) altogether, and the MAD cure lends itself to the monk as well. All for an ability that is just a little bit better and more versatile than dervish dance. Not too game breaking, but it puts a bit of edge back into the rogue when it needs it.
Dex-based damage is a problem, though. It makes the same attribute contribute to attack, damage, AC, initiative, reflex and a bunch of great skills.
In some cases it kinda works (Firearm mechanics suck, IMHO, but Gunslingers are okay, and Dervish Dance os mostly balanced because you can't use neithe 2-Handed weapons nor TWF... Well, technically, you can in fact TWF, but try to pull that off and your GM will be throwing books at you!)
I have no problem with every class needing one main attribute and 2 secondary attributes, leaving the others as a nice bonus to have, but not necessary.
(Barbarians and Fighters basically need Str. Dex and Con are nice, but no need to really push them. Wisdom is a nice bonus, but not necessarily of vital importance)
While I totally agree with your assessment about dex based dmg, I still think it is needed to bring the rogue back in line with the power curve. Thanks to the agile property, it is not without precedent either.
While I totally agree with your assessment about dex based dmg, I still think it is needed to bring the rogue back in line with the power curve. Thanks to the agile property, it is not without precedent either.
I dunno... Int to damage is already very good. Add that to Sneak Attack and some of the Rogue Talents added here that boost accuracy (e.g.: Assault Leader and Deft Palm) and their damage output become very reasonable.
BTW Deft Palm's effect should only last until the end of the Rogue's turn.
Reasonable, but still behind rangers, paladins, fighters, and pouncearians.
Reasonable, but still behind rangers, paladins, fighters, and pouncearians.
Good. Those are combat-focused classes. They are supposed to be better than Rogues in combat.
With these house rules, however, the Rogue is an actual threat too. He is not a full-BAB martial class, but he can cause some pain. And he can actually be more skilled than Bards, Inquisitors and Rangers too!
Nevermind Marthkus, Byrd. I once thought he had real arguments too, but over time he has made it very clear that he doesn't care about mundane characters. He claims non-casters are fine because he loves casters and want them to stay much more powerful than everything else. Not just powerful, but more powerful than everything else.
He'll say Fighters and Rogues and all other classes are fine because he wants them to be the Wizard's minions at higher levels. He said it himself.
Not entirely true. I am having trouble making a core Fighter that I enjoy. I don't have the same trouble for any other class including monk.
To me the game is more or less balanced. People's issues with the monk, and rogue stem from their need to do more damage than a fighter whenever they don't play a caster. BUT if caster is the bar that we are holding classes to, both monks and rogues do MORE damage than a caster can dish out, while having utility (although less than caster utility, but if they had more utility than a caster, then what would be the point of playing a caster?).
Reasonable, but still behind rangers, paladins, fighters, and pouncearians.Good. Those are combat-focused classes. They are supposed to be better than Rogues in combat.
With these house rules, however, the Rogue is an actual threat too. He is not a full-BAB martial class, but he can cause some pain. And he can actually be more skilled than Bards, Inquisitors and Rangers too!
That's what I meant. They are not in the top 5, but they would have enough combat viability to go with their out of combat utility; thus making them well rounded and playable .