My stance is that it would generally be silly, because at 1st level the amount of feats available that are fun/useful is very limited. There would be no specialization at all since all characters would go towards the same feats (toughness, armor prof, skill focus (perception, acrobatics), improved initiative).
As increased wealth could increase the power of martial classes but not really of caster classes, casters would be increasingly useless against higher threats.
Now, with heavy house ruling (or just a few choice house rules that severely affect gameplay) or for a very unusual setting it could work.
Whereas P6 continues to feel like PF even when you've gotten two or four or six extra feats, P1 would feel veeeery different.
Well, "no advancement" isn't the issue.
No leveling is the issue.
Remember that all the Es have advancement, you get one feat after every x-thousand experience points.
Since feats can raise almost any number in the game, and most Epic X options include feats that expand that selection even more, saying an E1 game would have "no advancement" is misstating the premise.
Now, lots and lots of RPGs dispense with leveling and allow for totally a la carte advancement options. The theoretical E1 game would just be like that.
Nuked it from orbit? Only way to be sure?
I think homebrewed feats are hard to take into consideration since their power level varies extremely between different EX games. In some E6 games you can get basically up to level 8 through feats, other games have no or only minimal homebrew feats.
Still, every variant of E* that I've seen awards feats for XP. That's not *no* advancement.
Agreed, fully agreed. However, in an E1 game some things will be far more useful than others, and since everyone gets the same resource and since every combat after a few advancements will be won by martial power (when you've gotten enough feats to tackle CR4 encounters, or maybe 10 CR1 encounters in a day, those spells aren't going to do much), there will be a strict set of feats everyone gets ASAP.
Arcane spellcasters, with their lack of armor and BAB, will quickly get obsolete for combat purposes except as buffers, and will be extremely fragile as their self-buffs and HP don't improve while enemy attacks will quickly become very dangerous.
Agreed, fully agreed. However, in an E1 game some things will be far more useful than others, and since everyone gets the same resource and since every combat after a few advancements will be won by martial power (when you've gotten enough feats to tackle CR4 encounters, or maybe 10 CR1 encounters in a day, those spells aren't going to do much), there will be a strict set of feats everyone gets ASAP.
Arcane spellcasters, with their lack of armor and BAB, will quickly get obsolete for combat purposes except as buffers, and will be extremely fragile as their self-buffs and HP don't improve while enemy attacks will quickly become very dangerous.
Really?
The difference between a 6th level fighter and a 6th level wizard in BAB is 3 points; or, thought of differently, a 15% difference in a chance to hit.
Of course, the fighter will get an additional attack and will be built for combat. But the wizard's buffs - which includes monstrous physique, mirror image, blink, heroism, etc., - do allow a self buffer to be relevant in an E6 game. Even a blaster could be relevant, if only in a very specialized build that boosts a single spell's CL.
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I suspect E1 would work for certain types of campaigns if you counted new feats as class levels for the purpose of favored class bonuses (so people could gain hp or skills) and added one mythic tier (to further differentiate characters and to open up access to mythic feats and spells).
welcome to the mythic fold.
I suspect E1 would work for certain types of campaigns if you counted new feats as class levels for the purpose of favored class bonuses (so people could gain hp or skills) and added one mythic tier (to further differentiate characters and to open up access to mythic feats and spells).welcome to the mythic fold.
Maaaaaaaaaan. Everyone's gettin' all their mythic on, and I'm still the same old non-mythic Tac.
Oh, wait. There it goes!
(Did someone say "Tac is going to play Wrath of the Righteous!"? I think so...)
ah crap, that's a lot of mythic toast to go around
OK, I am late to the party on this one. What I get is that E1 is character level 1, E6 is character level 6. Am I right?
In my 3rd edition games, I came to the conclusion that the characters finally start to actually show what they have been developing around level 7, and they start being "bad ass" around level 9. I never played 3rd edition higher than level 11, though.
I hate starting at 1st level. For me, 3rd level is the "new" first level. You have enough levels to play around with to be a beginner in your chosen character concept. I see level 1 as still being apprentice-material.
The idea of character level being more or less static is not a new one. Mutants and Masterminds is designed around that idea. What I do when I play that is have people spend some of their points to increase their Power Level, that way you have to make a conscious choice on when (and if) your character is going to "up the bar", which in itself does not actually make your character more powerful. In M&M the Power Level is used to provide limits to combat capabilities, skill caps, and to limit powers.
I suppose that one could do this in Pathfinder, but for a lot of people part of the fun is gaining experience or otherwise having the character improve. Sure, playing in itself is a reward, but it is more fun for most people to actually gain some reward for their efforts beyond merely having fun. There is something inherently fun that is had by the instance of leveling up.
In M&M (and GURPS, for that matter) you spend your XP directly on your character, but you are limited to the restraints of your power level. Power Level is not a bad thing, as it helps to keep things comparable and for the GM to use it as a tool in a similar fashion to ECL.
ah crap, that's a lot of mythic toast to go around
Mmmmmmmmmm... tastey Mythic toast.
I'm merely Advanced. Better than being Basic or Expert I guess.
I'm merely Advanced. Better than being Basic or Expert I guess.
*pats back* someday, if you eat your vegetables.
I'm merely Advanced. Better than being Basic or Expert I guess.:)
Well, Master is probably comparable to Mythic in power...still a lot less powerful than Epic. And Epic is still probably not as potent as Immortal.Henceforth, I propose that all E(X) games be retitled "I(X)"!
I dig it.
Agreed, fully agreed. However, in an E1 game some things will be far more useful than others, and since everyone gets the same resource and since every combat after a few advancements will be won by martial power (when you've gotten enough feats to tackle CR4 encounters, or maybe 10 CR1 encounters in a day, those spells aren't going to do much), there will be a strict set of feats everyone gets ASAP.
Arcane spellcasters, with their lack of armor and BAB, will quickly get obsolete for combat purposes except as buffers, and will be extremely fragile as their self-buffs and HP don't improve while enemy attacks will quickly become very dangerous.
Really?
The difference between a 6th level fighter and a 6th level wizard in BAB is 3 points; or, thought of differently, a 15% difference in a chance to hit.
Of course, the fighter will get an additional attack and will be built for combat. But the wizard's buffs - which includes monstrous physique, mirror image, blink, heroism, etc., - do allow a self buffer to be relevant in an E6 game. Even a blaster could be relevant, if only in a very specialized build that boosts a single spell's CL.
We're talking about E1, not E6. In E6 wizards are very useful, because at 6th level, there's plenty of feats available that can increase the usefulness of the wizard and many spells that work. If you're stuck at CL1, a feat like augment summoning doesn't make sense.
Arcane casters will have basically no way to improve their casting in an E1 game, apart from spell focus and improved initiative, and since they can't wear heavier armor they'll soon be discounted from melee too, since AC is everything in a low-level game.
A first level fighter with three extra feats and 3rd level wealth will have something like AC 21, HP 15. It's main offensive attack may be either:
Archer, Str 14, Dex 18, Toughness, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, Deadly Aim: MW Composite Longbow +7 (1d8+3; 20x3) or +4/+4 (1d8+5; 20x3) (+1 within 30ft)
Greatsworder, Str 18, Dex 14, Toughness, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Furious Focus, Cleave: MW Greatsword +7 (2d6+9) (if hit, another attack against adjacent)
Meanwhile, a first level wizard with two extra feats and 3rd level wealth will have something like AC 13, HP 11.
It's main offensive thing will be it's 1st level spells, which will be something like Sleep (DC16). Feats would be something like Toughness, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Combat Casting.
And this is at a point where CR3 encounters will be likely on a semi-regular basis. Stuff like an [http://paizo.com/PRD/monsters/ogre.html#_ogre]Ogre[/url]. That thing is dangerous to anyone, and even the fighter has a pretty big risk to drop, but a charge from an ogre towards the fighter will on average deal 6.72 damage, and have about a 20% chance of dropping the fighter immediately, while a charge towards the wizard will deal an average of 14.9 damage and will only very rarely not drop the wizard.
Now, the wizard has pretty good odds at dropping the ogre if it can get it's spell off, but it's a full-round cast and the chance is about 60% - if it fails, the wizard will surely die. Not to mention that the ogre can simply throw it's javelin, and have about a 50% chance of forcing a DC19 concentration check when the wizard has about +6 concentration.
Or, more appropriately IMO (though I think I'm in the minority here on that view), higher number of feats will mostly lead to an increase in the number of encounters expected per day. Instead of maybe three CR1 encounters and two CR2 encounters, we're looking at maybe six CR1 encounters and three CR2 encounters - which drastically reduces the risk of immediately killing someone (since CR2 monsters are generally much less likely to one-hit KO anyone) but again is bad for casters who have 3-4 1st level spells per day, and maybe 8 class power uses per day (if choosing an offensive school/bloodline/domain), and then are reduced to cantrips.
I simply think 1st level characters are a little TOO fragile to fight monsters that out-CR them by more than just a little, and have TOO limited resources to fight lots of monsters per day. An E6+3 feats party member don't risk immediately dropping to a CR8 (or even 9) monster the way a E1+3 feats party member risks to a CR3 monster, and a level 6 caster still has maybe 15 useful spells per day (since 1st level spells are still useful at that point), which also allows it to put up some defensive buffs for itself if it isn't an armor-user.