Going up the Thistle River to Thistletop


Rise of the Runelords


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In the book it describes how the characters should reach the Thistle river is just a couple of hours, but then proceeds to act as if they would trek through thick forests instead of building a raft or follow the river to the coast. So are the goblins even watching this very obvious approach? Sure the PC will have to do some climbing when they reach their destination (but they don't know that), so what conditions or encounters should they have if they go the river route?


There are random encounters that can occur for either path. There are watchtowers, so the goblins likely watch the river route... or would if they hadn't lost a bunch of goblins in that raid.


The thing that annoys me a little is the fact that the writers didn't detail this obvious route. So here are my options as I see them: 1) assume that no one is guarding the river (boring but safe); they get to the coast and now find themselves having to climb cliffs between two forces that could notice them at any moment. At least having to fight through the woods puts the enemy in front at all times, but this is not the most obvious route. 2)Have several goblins guarding the river, which ramps up the danger very early. As soon as a signal is sent they will have to climb the cliffs between two WAITING parties. If they're lucky they will choose to ignore the river and go in the seemingly hard way. To make it worse they will probably be under duress and blindly charge across the bridge if they have been spotted and get taken out that way. The same basic problem arises if they decide to approach from the coast (the gobs riding the gob dogs might be able to see a sea/coastal approach). If the PCs are smart they will approach during the day since goblins have a hard time seeing, but that's no guarantee. I'd like to hear if any other group of players approached from one these routes and how the GM handled it.


Who says the river route is easier?

If you're on the river bank you will be dealing with marshy terrain, lots of insects, and critters that live in rivers and on the river's edge. Including goblins.

If you think you can just build a raft? That's going to be a day's worth of hard labor. And then you put your raft in the water and find it sinks when everyone gets on it because live trees are full of water and rafts often incorporate multiple layers of logs before they truly become bouyant. Or do you think they'll buy a boat (or rent one) and carry it to the river? Easier if you're going to do that to rent a fishing boat (or hire a fisherman) to bring the group along the coast.


Tangent says it well... going down the river is not necessarily easy.

My players are travelling to Thisletop next session. When looking at the river, if they get there, I'll be describing it something like:

"Looking north from the road the Thistle River flows as a narrow fast-moving stream cutting through steep muddy banks overgrown with thorn bushes and brambles. Looking down it you see wet slippery rocks and several rotten tree trunks fallen across the ravine. You can hear what sounds like rapids too. The steep sides look very difficult to climb, you'll be vulnerable to ambush from above if you're spotted".

No way a boat is getting down there. If the PCs try to walk it they'll find themselves slipping into deep pools making very slow progress, sometimes up to their necks in water and sometimes balancing precariously on wet moss-covered stones. And if i'm feeling particularly evil, a small group of goblins with bows up above them on the banks (with cover) could prove nasty. Try making a penalised climb check on a steep muddy slope through brambles with arrows coming down at you. Hamburger Hill comes to mind. They're welcome to do it, but trying to find a way through the forest is going to be easier.

The most viable other alternative they have is taking a boat and trying to scale the island cliffs directly. We have a rogue in the party with very good climbing skills so if they do that they have a good chance of it working out. I'm not going to suggest it to them though, they'll have to figure that out for themselves.


Tangent101 wrote:

Who says the river route is easier?

If you're on the river bank you will be dealing with marshy terrain, lots of insects, and critters that live in rivers and on the river's edge. Including goblins.

If you think you can just build a raft? That's going to be a day's worth of hard labor. And then you put your raft in the water and find it sinks when everyone gets on it because live trees are full of water and rafts often incorporate multiple layers of logs before they truly become bouyant. Or do you think they'll buy a boat (or rent one) and carry it to the river? Easier if you're going to do that to rent a fishing boat (or hire a fisherman) to bring the group along the coast.

When you're in a survival situation or just need to cross rough terrain, you always use the river (unless there is something specific about it that would deter you and I've read nothing about the Thistle River that would). The PCs have a map of the area and the river will be obvious, so to want to cross a difficult forest terrain, instead of following the river, is counter intuitive. Not saying they won't but it a real life situation it would be an odd move.


Yossarian wrote:

Tangent says it well... going down the river is not necessarily easy.

My players are travelling to Thisletop next session. When looking at the river, if they get there, I'll be describing it something like:

"Looking north from the road the Thistle River flows as a narrow fast-moving stream cutting through steep muddy banks overgrown with thorn bushes and brambles. Looking down it you see wet slippery rocks and several rotten tree trunks fallen across the ravine. You can hear what sounds like rapids too. The steep sides look very difficult to climb, you'll be vulnerable to ambush from above if you're spotted".

No way a boat is getting down there. If the PCs try to walk it they'll find themselves slipping into deep pools making very slow progress, sometimes up to their necks in water and sometimes balancing precariously on wet moss-covered stones. And if i'm feeling particularly evil, a small group of goblins with bows up above them on the banks (with cover) could prove nasty. Try making a penalised climb check on a steep muddy slope through brambles with arrows coming down at you. Hamburger Hill comes to mind. They're welcome to do it, but trying to find a way through the forest is going to be easier.

The most viable other alternative they have is taking a boat and trying to scale the island cliffs directly. We have a rogue in the party with very good climbing skills so if they do that they have a good chance of it working out. I'm not going to suggest it to them though, they'll have to figure that out for themselves.

Part of my complaint about this part of the adventure is that it provides no built in reason why the PCs would avoid the river. It even has them stopping at the river in the narrative. It just assumes that the PCs would naturally go though thick entangling woods. So even if I were to use your suggestion its just PCs picking their poison. But I would still pick the river even with the obstacles you describe because at least I wouldn't get lost. Even in the book the PCs have to make survival checks in the woods to avoid being lost for 1d4 hours (plus all the poisonous plants and trip hazards.


I see the river looking something like this...

http://www.mdc.net/~dbrier/yawgoog/trails/img/green-fall-ravine.jpg

But this is another option...

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/4998416.jpg

Either way, walking along the river itself is next to impossible.


Backfromthedeadguy wrote:


Part of my complaint about this part of the adventure is that it provides no built in reason why the PCs would avoid the river. It even has them stopping at the river in the narrative. It just assumes that the PCs would naturally go though thick entangling woods. So even if I were to use your suggestion its just PCs picking their poison. But I would still pick the river even with the obstacles you describe because at least I wouldn't get lost....

You have to use your judgment.

Spoiler:
Plot spoiler

Or consider it this way... in later chapters your players will have to cross almost the entire length of Varisia with only a paragraph of supporting text. For example, in chapter 5 the PCs have to travel from Sandpoint to Rimeskull in North West Varisia. The supporting text is...

"The method by which the PC's travel to Rimeskull is irrelevant…. by this point the PCs should be high enough level that they'll be able to utilise options like wind walk and greater teleport to reach the shores of lake Stormunder. As they approach the Sihedron Circle, proceed with the following section: "From the rocky eastern shoreline of Lake Stormunder…"

That's it!


Not saying you're wrong Yossarian but making the river totally useless as either a means of travel or navigation is just annoying and stinks of heavy handed railroading--"Sorry, the river is totally impassable, so I guess you have to plunge into the tangling woods after all".


You know, most rivers are not big. When a river is small then unless you're using canoes then it's not going to be viable for boats. There will be numerous shallow regions (that you can easily wade through) and the like. I mean, when we say "river" I know people think of the Mississippi or the Connecticut river or the like... but this isn't a main river. And the map of the region suggests the river flows from the Thistlewood south, away from Thistletop. So the PCs can't even use it to get to Thistletop.


Backfromthedeadguy wrote:
Not saying you're wrong Yossarian but making the river totally useless as either a means of travel or navigation is just annoying and stinks of heavy handed railroading--"Sorry, the river is totally impassable, so I guess you have to plunge into the tangling woods after all".

Yes totally fair point. If you think your party will want to take the river and you want to make it a possible then go for it.

In that case you could try a few things to make it interesting.

Perhaps a goblin ambush where the river has steep banks. Some archers above firing down from cover will make a challenging encounter. Plus there's an incentive not to let any escape and get a warning back to Thistletop.

A heavy rainstorm could start up, with the river starting to get choppy, risk of a spot flood.

They could encounter some woodland creatures drinking by the river. A family of wild boar, or maybe a dire boar.

A medium water elemental (CR3) could block their way.

The river could be broken by a waterfall with a cave underneath, occupied by Troll. They're CR5 but perhaps it could be diseased, injured or just a 'small troll' if your party can't handle it.

A injured traveller, the only survivor of an attack by goblins, could be laying by the river bank in dire need of healing. If they help him he could supply them with some information about what lays ahead.


If I want to hold off on the gobs being alerted I'll throw in a nature encounter instead of sentries. Thanks for the suggestions everyone!


A map of the region can be found in the back of the book.

You'll see the river goes nowhere near Thistletop. So if the PCs are going to approach by water, it'll have to be via the sea.


Tangent101 wrote:

A map of the region can be found in the back of the book.

You'll see the river goes nowhere near Thistletop. So if the PCs are going to approach by water, it'll have to be via the sea.

Sorry, but you're looking at the wrong river. Thistle Riv runs straight through Nettlewood and comes out less than 1/4 of a mile east of Thistletop.


Page 386 of the Anniversary Edition has a map of the area. The river is specifically labeled the Thistle River. It does not go closer than two miles to Thistletop. I have not found any maps online of that specific area.


Tangent101 wrote:
Page 386 of the Anniversary Edition has a map of the area. The river is specifically labeled the Thistle River. It does not go closer than two miles to Thistletop. I have not found any maps online of that specific area.

I have it as PDF. I'm not sure how you're interpreting that as 2 miles. It's less that a quarter of a mile. An inch on that map is 1 mile.


One mile. The river starts at the south edge of the woods, crosses the road, and continues south. It's a solid section of woods for the Nettlewood itself, no rivers going through it. In addition, the Pathfinder Wiki states this about the river itself: The Thistle River runs in the area between the Nettlewood and Mosswood forests east of Sandpoint.

Do note this about the Nettlewood as well. It is described as having the forest floor with snarls of nettles and thorny underbrush. Any brooks, streams, and small rivers would likewise be overgrown and not easily navigable.

I'm looking right at the book right now. Trust me, I'm not lying to you when I say that river does not go to Thistletop.


Tangent101 wrote:

One mile. The river starts at the south edge of the woods, crosses the road, and continues south. It's a solid section of woods for the Nettlewood itself, no rivers going through it. In addition, the Pathfinder Wiki states this about the river itself: The Thistle River runs in the area between the Nettlewood and Mosswood forests east of Sandpoint.

Do note this about the Nettlewood as well. It is described as having the forest floor with snarls of nettles and thorny underbrush. Any brooks, streams, and small rivers would likewise be overgrown and not easily navigable.

I'm looking right at the book right now. Trust me, I'm not lying to you when I say that river does not go to Thistletop.

I'm looking as well. And if the Thistle River's mouth was 1 mile east of Thistletop, it would be on the very edge of the map. The only thing I can think of is that somehow we are looking at two versions of the same map.


In the RotRL book it's tricky to interpret whether the river flows through the forest or not. There appears to be a river mouth a few hundred yards east of Thisletop. Maybe!

The Jade Regent map however shows the Thisle River more clearly... in that you can see the river flows from the South to the North all the way through the wood, ending at the sea:

Sandpoint hinterlands map from the Jade Regent


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Yossarian wrote:

In the RotRL book it's tricky to interpret whether the river flows through the forest or not. There appears to be a river mouth a few hundred yards east of Thisletop. Maybe!

The Jade Regent map however shows the Thisle River more clearly... in that you can see the river flows from the South to the North all the way through the wood, ending at the sea:

Sandpoint hinterlands map from the Jade Regent

Guys, the river mouth east of Thistletop is clearly the Thistle River. The Jade Regent map shows the mouth only a bit further, maybe a full quarter mile at the most. Anyway, my players should be reaching this point tonight and I'll report on what route they take after the game. Just in case they do use the river I'll have some sort of river monster waiting for them.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm not sure what the discrepancy is here. It's obvious that the Thistle River definitely connects to Thistletop.

In Backfromthedeadguy's game, at least. It clearly doesn't connect in Tangent101's, probably doesn't in Yossarian's, and it's uncertain whether or not it does in mine, since it's not become important.

:)


Well, the players did exactly what I thought they would and traveled the river. To cut down on time I didn't bother with anything but setting the mood. Once they saw that they would have to climb they decided to go around. Anyway it would have been nice if the encounter was focused on them using the river in the first place. One of my players became a little too frustrated with getting lost in the woods. Anyway they just got though wiping out the Birdcruncher gobs.


I understand Backfromthedeadguy's point: my original plan was to get a fishing boat from Sandpoint, hug the coast, and anchor away north of Thistletop, using rowboats to go to shore and do some recon (I had a magic spell I thought we could use to directly climb up Thistleknot, but like being cautious). I got outvoted by the rest of the group, so we went the hard way overland, then tried to swim out to Thistletop, and met the murder-baby Bunyip.

In terms of going the river way? I would have warned that the river is a known haven for crocodiles, giant snapping turtles, and snakes (water moccasins or constrictors, mattering on how nasty a critter you want). The Survival roll would have been to avoid such an encounter.

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