Sajan: When you attempt a combat check without playing a weapon, you may use your Dexterity die instead of your Strength die ([ ] and add the Magic trait) ([ ] and the Fire trait).
To me, this means, in long-hand: "When you face a combat check you can choose to set Dexterity as the base skill for that check. This means that you may play cards to boost your Dexterity to enhance this check (and cannot use cards that only boost Strength). Since...
Where does it say Dexterity as the base skill?
It says Dexterity Die not Dexterity Skill.To me that reads use your dexterity Die instead of your Strength Die, so if strength is 1d6+1 and dex is 1d12+2 you would be rolling 1d12+1.
That is my point, Die is not a piece of plastic, it is a skill ... sometimes. Other times it is a piece of plastic.
I understand what you are getting at, the word "die" with a skill in front of it means the actual skill and set the skill you are checking, the word "die" without a skill in front of it means a piece of plastic.
My point is it would have been much clearer if at the very least they had not put the word "die" after the skill.
EG
"When you attempt a combat check without playing a weapon, you may use your Dexterity instead of your Strength"
I agree that it's not written as clearly as it could be but I think it is consistent. In almost all cases you have one base skill for a check (Wand of Force Missiles is the only card I've seen so far that seems to lead to a check with NO base skill, just 4d4). Some cards can change that skill (and hence the die you roll) and some cards can boost that skill.
The use of the word 'die' IS really confusing in some/many places, but that's the nomenclature they decided to use so we have to get used to it.
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Why is this still confusing? The die is the die. Any modifier to the base die is just that, a modifier. Any skill associated with the base die is just that a skill modifier if you can use that skill.
So if someone has a DEX of 1d6, has modified it to +1, and is rolling Ranged +2, their total Ranged check is 1d6 +1 +2. If they use a Blessing to add a die, then it is 2d6 +1 +2.
Yea the verbiage in the rule book can be manipulated anyway possible to try and justify that the 'die' is the base die plus the modifier, but that just isn't the case. I've seen 6-7 threads on this and no matter how people want to try and read more into the rules it still comes down to the same thing. The die is the die and the modifiers are the modifiers.
All I can say was that I was in the darkness too and then I saw the light! :)
I *think* the problem is that people get confused because when it says something like:
"you may use your Dexterity die instead of your Strength die"
It actually means:
"you may set Dexterity as the base skill for that check. This means that you roll your Dex skill's die and may play cards to boost your Dexterity to enhance this check (and cannot use cards that only boost Strength)."
The implied change to the base skill (and hence what can be boosted and which bonuses to use) is what (seems to be) catching people out.
Hmm some days ago I thought we had nailed it a die is a die.
Mike agreed with you officially unofficial. Now when you use your Dexterity die instead of your strength die it becomes a dexterity check.
I thought it was a strength check but the Dex die substituted for the str die. Here dexterity is applied to strength (like a martial arts technique) but it is still strength based combat and uses the original strength bonus.
If it said change the combat check to a Dexterity check or even omitted the word die or check I would agree.
You seem to be backtracking fro your sleep on it statement. On BGG someone has already jumped on this to say a X Die = X check , after he was overruled in this thread.
I really wish Vic would jump in and clearly clarify this. with a set of simple statements.
If something changes a Die it doesn't happen in step 1 , if it changes the skill it does happen in step 1.
Two competing threads! Can we merge this one and the BGG one?
Jerry - nobody is going back on what we originally thought. H4ppy is just trying to find a clearer way to explain it.
When you make a combat check - there is no such thing as a combat skill. You need to decide what skill you are going to use to perform the check. By default, this is strength or melee. You can play a single card or power that lets you change this. These cards are usually obvious, they use wording like 'for your combat check...' or have an attack trait. These cards change the default of strength/melee to whatever the card says. Ignore the word die on these cards, as its apt to confuse you.
Now, you have your skill set. Lets say its Sajan and after using his power, you are now checking with Dexterity. This means you have a d10+2. That's where we start.
Now, we can play modifiers. Things like blessings and spells and items let us add some more dice. So, in this case, some more d10s. NOT more + 2 - as that is our skill modifier.
This is all the same explanation as h4ppy originally laid out and Mike confirmed. Its just that folks explain it different ways and I'm not sure everyone has quite internalized it yet.
Unless I am missing something myself.
I don't think I've changed anything since this post:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q4t9?What-is-a-die#34
Elsewhere it is confirmed (by Vic) that Sajan's power changes the check to a Dex check and you then need to play Dex modifiers.
That post #34 is my best shot at making it clear what's going on, and I think it's what Mike agreed to.
In all circumstances you are rolling one against ONE skill. If you want to change the skill you can play one card which does this (in step 1). You can then boost that skill as much as you like with other cards/powers, subject to the one-of-each-per-player limitation.
Clear as... muddy crystal?
Don't get hung up on the 'Dex *die*' wording. Just understand that each check can be based on only one skill and go from there - hopefully you'll have an epiphany like mine soon and it will all just make sense :)
Edit: Ninja'd by mostman79, and his words are wise.
@mostman - can you post a link to the BGG thread? I thought I was subscribed to the relevant ones but haven't seen any updates for a while. I might have missed one!
Got it now. I think the thread link is:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1035251/encounter-resolution-clarification
Would be nice if someone had said they were reposting this one verbatim!
:)
Don't get hung up on the 'Dex *die*' wording. Just understand that each check can be based on only one skill and go from there - hopefully you'll have an epiphany like mine soon and it will all just make sense :)
One thing that muddies this up a little is when you use a "Sub-skill", like Arcane or Divine.
When you use Force Missile, for instance, to change a combat check to an "Arcane check", if your character has "Arcane" as a sub-skill under "Intelligence", the check is also considered both an Arcane check and an Intelligence check (and it's still a Combat check, too). In other words, you can boost the check by playing any cards that specifically modify "Combat checks", "Intelligence checks", and/or "Arcane checks".
If Ezren uses Lightning touch does that mean his Combat check is :-
"roll Arcane die + 2d4"
(1d12 +2 and has Intelligence) + 2d4
or
How I wuld read this :-
1d12 +2d4 (and has intelligence)
As lightning Touch has magic,Arcane,Attack,Electricity I missed the obvious Arcane bit above.
His base would just be 1d6.
Its not an epiphany I need it is one clear interpretation and this is fundamental to the game so why have hasn't Vic chimed in , he seems very active everywhere else, which is cool.
This is something that arises on almost every encounter.
Lightning touch would be:
Arcane + 2d4 - which is....
Intelligence + 2 + 2d4 - which is...
d12 + 2 + 2d4
And you are making an Arcane check with the Magic, Arcane, Attack, Electricity, and Basic traits.
So now - to continue past step 1 of the check, let's say we will throw in a Blessing of Pharasma during Step 3 of the check. This adds two dice when playing a spell, which we did. So, this adds 2d12, since this is our base die for our Arcane skill. So now we have:
3d12 + 2d4 + 2
We could have also played a blessing that helps an arcane based combat check.
And to further add - to follow up on the point that QuantumNinja just made - we could also throw in a hypothetical item that added a die to an Intelligence check as our Arcane skill is based on Intelligence.
I know thats how you read it mostman79 but I am still unclear , what do the others think as this is at odds with the earlier post by H4appy which you and Mike agreed with.
I respect all your views but we this is just a consensus , I can see a number of interpretations. I am totally on board with all the additions added traits to the base skill and follow on additions of powers and skills.
I am very literal and rules should be clear it says add Arcane die not Arcane check and I have seen other powers cards that use the word check or don't have check or die.
Ok - understood. Can you explain specifically which part of this is at odds with what we were discussing earlier?
It's quite possible that we have this wrong - but we have enough feedback from both Mike and Vic that we are doing this correctly. For example, we know for sure that Sajan's power means he does a dexterity check, including bonuses, for unarmed combat.
Ok So by extention your applying Sajan's Power to the Card.. I can see that. There are enough questions here and elsewhere to define :-
For a spell that says roll your X die means use the x skill instead of the normal skill for a Y check.
Similarly for other uses of the word die to differentiate it fromwhen doing x check with Y die and z bonus replace the d8 Y die with a d10 die.
:)
We should use actual examples. If you have some - list them - and we can see if we agree.
And you are correct, the ruling that Sajan's power means "use Dexterity" - that was the thread we used to understand all of this. The key is the phrase "for your combat..." That's on Sajan's power and it's also on all the weapons and attack spells. Aha! So, therefore, where you see X die and that "for your combat..." - it means "Use X skill". Skills have bonuses, dice don't. So, roll your Dexterity die means "Use your Dexterity Skill, with bonuses"
The problem really boils down to the overloaded usage of the word "die". For someone that is a literal rules reader, this is a nightmare. And it's obvious that what you are looking for is a firm, official, ruling. I'm sure they will give you one. If you look at Vic's posts and posts from Chad over at BGG - they are clearly trying to figure out how to adjust this.
Wow, you guys are still going at it. I can't keep up.....
:)
I wouldn't say going at it. I would just say "trying to learn the rules together".
My wife, who is my primary gaming partner also has issues with wishy washy rules as she reads them very literally. So I don't mind this :)
I hear you. "At it" just meant the topic, not at each other. I was behind by 20 posts, and thought we had it hammered out, seems not. Keep at it, and it sounds like developers are tuned into this and working on it.
And actual examples work best to describe an issue with the cards, checks, etc.
I am glad to hear that Vic and co are working on it.
They have answered a few specific examples. The fact that they do not simply say that this applies across the board indicates to me that it does not. Their response to other queries is almost immediate but not so here.
You have to admit that a phrase like "Skills have bonuses, dice don't. So, roll your Dexterity die means "Use your Dexterity Skill, with bonuses" seem just wrong.
Unless you change it to :-
During Step 1 :- When a Power or Boon refers to a die including its skill as in Arcane die or Dexterity Die, this can be played during step 1 and means use the referred to skill,on your characters card, for that check, including its listed bonus and any bonus listed on the Power or Boon. You may only use a single Power or a Single Boon not both. The Check will be of the type referred to on the Power or Boon.
During Step 3 :- When a Power or Boon refers to a die without an accompanying skill then substitute this die for the one used in the named skill, providing that skill was selected in step 1. This must be played during step 3. One of each type of Boon or Power may be played by each character at the location.
If we change a check to one not listed on the Villain/Monster and it is undefeated your character will suffer damage of the type listed on the Monster/Villain Card and if present of a sub type listed on the Monster / villain and Location card.
For example when using Lightening Touch to use Arcane skill instead of Combat skill for a Combat Check and you fail you will still suffer Combat Damage.
I would like clarification on the following:-
Traits means Magic, Electricity, Force etc.
If the Monster/Villain is immune to any of the traits used in the check then it cannot be used (or would be ineffectual)
or
If the Monster/Villain is immune to all of the traits used in the check then it cannot be used (or would be ineffectual)
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I think in #34 saying a die is a die is what misled me.
Clearly the phrase 'skill' die is often used to refer to check ability which includes the 'skill' and its bonus.
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Consensus is saying:-
A die is a die when it is not prefixed by a skill.
A die prefixed by a skill is a skill check.
@Vic - look at post #34 and maybe you can work something out from there ;)
According to the forums (here and on BGG) this has helped a lot of people to clarify how things work!
What would really help is to have things like weapons and attack spells that are combat "initializers" have an indicator on the card that told the player "This is a step 1 card - its setting the skill for the check". However, its far too late for that at this point...
What would really help is to have things like weapons and attack spells that are combat "initializers" have an indicator on the card that told the player "This is a step 1 card - its setting the skill for the check". However, its far too late for that at this point...
Yea, that would have been amazingly awesome. Either an icon or a keyword in the text of the card to make the distinction between "initializers" and "boosters/enhancers/modifiers" (whatever you want to call them) would have cleared up a lot of confusion.
It would also have been nice to have an icon/keyword to indicate when a card can be played (during your check, during any check, while taking damage, any time outside a check, etc). Granted, the language in the cards usually indicates this, but having standard icons/keywords would have made things more consistent and would have caused a lot less confusion due to subtle differences in wording.
@mostman - maybe they can do that for the second base set and adventure path ;)
But most of these cards are fairly clear. They say "use XYZ for your combat check" or "use DEX instead of STR". Once you understand 'What is a die' it all makes sense. It's easier to change ourselves than fret about the cards not magically rewording themselves!
It might be fairly clear to those of us who have been active in these threads and those on BGG, but I still think there is a high level of confusion out there. Its upsetting to think about the army of people that have this game at home and don't know about this forum or BGG or even the FAQ, and are playing the game entirely wrong. Once you have the rules all squared away, PACG is one of the most fun and rewarding game experiences I have had in a long while.
I can only imagine how magnified this fear is for the designers and care takers of the game.
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Could you believe that there is 79 messages about "what is a die?" Either there is a problem in cards/rules writting, we are all absolutely dumb or incredibly nitpicking...
I think it's a linear combination of all three.
Could you believe that there is 79 messages about "what is a die?" Either there is a problem in cards/rules writting, we are all absolutely dumb or incredibly nitpicking...I think it's a linear combination of all three.
Or maybe its just the first and last or second and first or first and second or maybe its a fourth one we have to do after the second but before the first during the third unless the fourth is followed by die.
The fourth is the confusion die.
Or maybe its just the first and last or second and first or first and second or maybe its a fourth one we have to do after the second but before the first during the third unless the fourth is followed by die.Could you believe that there is 79 messages about "what is a die?" Either there is a problem in cards/rules writting, we are all absolutely dumb or incredibly nitpicking...I think it's a linear combination of all three.
This is my new favourite post of all time.