I'm looking for some more official clarification of what is meant by a "die". You'd think it would be easy, right?
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Q1: Blessing of the Gods adds "1 die" to a check. Is this any one of the physical dice used in the check? Or any one of the physical stats dice used in the check? Or one of the stats? E.g. If I have "1d6 + 1" Dexterity and play a weapon that adds 1d8 to my combat check what are my options for BotGods' "die"?
I'm pretty sure that it adds 1d8 (my choice of a single physical die that's currently in the pool), but would be nice to be sure!
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Q2: Do "add 1 die" effects resolve immediately or not until the "Assemble your dice" phase? E.g. if I play BotGods whilst my Strength is 1d4 then later (through simple-mindedness) play a power that boosts Strength to 1d10 can I 'change' BotGods' die to a d10? In other words does it resolve as "add one die that's already in the pool" or as "add one bonus die that you can decide on in the Assemble dice phase"?
I'm pretty sure it's "a bonus die you can decide on later", but hope to clarify.
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Q3: One of Lini's powers says "You may discard a card to roll d10 instead of your Strength or Dexterity die for any check". What is my "Strength die"? The physical die, or the die + bonuses? E.g. if my Strength (with feat) is "1d4 + 1" would using this power get me to (a) "1d10 + 1" or (b) just 1d10? (does it replace my entire Strength 'power' or just replace the basic die I use for Strength checks?)
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Q4: Seoni also has a power like this: "...discard any card to roll your Arcane die + 1d6...". Her Arcane (with no feats) is Charisma + 2 = "1d12 + 2", so would using this power result in her rolling (a) "1d12 + 2 + 1d6" or (b) just "1d12 + 1d6"?
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Q5: If Seoni has lots of feats such that her Charisma is "1d12 + 3" and her power is "...discard any card to roll your Arcane die + 1d6 + 1 ..." would the resulting roll be:
(total Arcane) + (total power) =
(total Charisma + 2) + (total power) =
"1d12 + 3 + 2 + 1d6 + 1"?
Or would it just be:
(Arcane physical die) + (total power) =
"1d12 + 1d6 + 1"?
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It would seem to me that we can't have it both ways... either Lini or Seoni's power is going to be reduced by an official ruling, unless Seoni's card is a typo which should be written "...roll your Arcane + 1d6..." (instead of "...roll your Arcane die + 1d6...")?
Thanks in advance, I've only played two solo games so far but it looks great. And massive kudos to Mike and Vic for being so active in these forums. I hope it's not too painful having your games dissected like this, although reading the build up literature it seems that you've already had some fun breaking the initial version of the game on the rocks which you call playtest groups!
C
Ok, I'm not 100% on these, but I'll try to answer anyway.
A die is just a single die - 1dX. A die roll is the consequence of a skill check and is any number of dice plus static modifierst - ydX+z. So, on to the questions:
Q1: Blessing of the Gods adds "1 die" to a check. Is this any one of the physical dice used in the check? Or any one of the physical stats dice used in the check? Or one of the stats? E.g. If I have "1d6 + 1" Dexterity and play a weapon that adds 1d8 to my combat check what are my options for BotGods' "die"?
From page 16 of the Rulebook, Blessing, you add specifically the single die of the skill you're using on the check. If my Strength is 1d4+1 (this is my Strength roll/check; my Strength die is just 1d4), and I make a Strength combat check modified by a weapon that adds 1d8 to it, the roll would be 1d4+1+1d8. If you throw in a Blessing of the Gods, you add another Strength die (1d4) to the roll, making it 2d4+1+1d8.
Q2: Do "add 1 die" effects resolve immediately or not until the "Assemble your dice" phase? E.g. if I play BotGods whilst my Strength is 1d4 then later (through simple-mindedness) play a power that boosts Strength to 1d10 can I 'change' BotGods' die to a d10? In other words does it resolve as "add one die that's already in the pool" or as "add one bonus die that you can decide on in the Assemble dice phase"?
Any card or power that modifies the die you are using must be played during the "Determine Which Die You’re Using" step, which happens before you play any card or power during the "Play Cards or Powers That Affect the Check" (Rulebook, p. 11).
So, if you played BotGods, you can't change the die you are using anymore.Q3: One of Lini's powers says "You may discard a card to roll d10 instead of your Strength or Dexterity die for any check". What is my "Strength die"? The physical die, or the die + bonuses? E.g. if my Strength (with feat) is "1d4 + 1" would using this power get me to (a) "1d10 + 1" or (b) just 1d10? (does it replace my entire Strength 'power' or just replace the basic die I use for Strength checks?)
If Lini's Strength is 1d4+2 (remember, this is her Strength roll/check, not Strength die) and she uses said power, her Strength die becomes 1d10 and her Strength roll becomes 1d10+2.
Q4 & Q5:
I agree with you and I believe Seoni power is a typo and should be worded as you suggested. In this case, the roll would be (total Charisma + 2) + (total power)
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I would also like to praise Mike and Vic for their efforts and activity, you guys rock!!
Hi,
Thanks for the reply, but I have to differ on some of these. (I may be new at this but I'm going to go down fighting!)
Q1: Blessing of the Gods adds "1 die" to a check. Is this any one of the physical dice used in the check? Or any one of the physical stats dice used in the check? Or one of the stats? E.g. If I have "1d6 + 1" Dexterity and play a weapon that adds 1d8 to my combat check what are my options for BotGods' "die"?From page 16 of the Rulebook, Blessing, you add specifically the single die of the skill you're using on the check. If my Strength is 1d4+1 (this is my Strength roll/check; my Strength die is just 1d4), and I make a Strength combat check modified by a weapon that adds 1d8 to it, the roll would be 1d4+1+1d8. If you throw in a Blessing of the Gods, you add another Strength die (1d4) to the roll, making it 2d4+1+1d8.
I don't think this is correct, but that's kind of why I've put this 'out there' for discussion!
p16 says: "...die or dice added are of the type defined by the situation and the skill that the character is using for the check..." (which I take as meaning it has to be a die you're already using, you can't just add Dexterity to a Strength check)
The back page of the rule book says: "When blessings add dice to a check, the dice are of the same type that the character is already using for the check." (i.e. any of the dice you're using)
To me that means you can add one more of any (physical) die that's in the check, not just your skill die. I'm prepared to be corrected on this, but I don't see how you get to the restriction on the extra die needing to be from your skill from the two excerpts quoted above. Maybe it's mentioned somewhere else, though?
For your answer to my Q2, I again have to differ...
Any card or power that modifies the die you are using must be played during the "Determine Which Die You’re Using" step, which happens before you play any card or power during the "Play Cards or Powers That Affect the Check" (Rulebook, p. 11).
So, if you played BotGods, you can't change the die you are using anymore.
I would not classify BotGods as changing the die, so it's not part of the "Determine which die you're using" step at all. To me, it's part of the "Play Cards that Affect Your Check" step since it's a buff to help you pass the check.
As an aside, I think the "Determine Which Die You’re Using" wording on p11 is wrong. It is meant to be called "Determine the Skill You’re Using", as written on the back page. This step is about deciding whether you're making a Strength, Melee, Dexterity, etc check and then later steps are about boosting your ability in this (fixed) area.
Over to the community to chime in and set one (or both) of us straight!
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BoGs only adds one die of the base check. So if the check was STR and your STR die is 1d6, then it adds 1d6. If you are doing a skill check and you don't have the skill, then your base is 1d4 no matter what, so say you are doing a Perception check and don't have Perception, no matter what your WIS die is the check is 1d4. If you use a BoG, then it is 2d4. If you do have Perception, and your WIS is 1d6, then it would be 2d6 + Perception.
In the case of Lini, it has been stated a number of times. that while her power allows her to roll a 1d10 instead of her 1d4, her base is still 1d4. So for a STR check using a BoG for Lini, if she discards a card also, then her roll will be 1d10 + 1d4.
BoGs only adds one die of the base check. So if the check was STR and your STR die is 1d6, then it adds 1d6. If you are doing a skill check and you don't have the skill, then your base is 1d4 no matter what, so say you are doing a Perception check and don't have Perception, no matter what your WIS die is the check is 1d4. If you use a BoG, then it is 2d4. If you do have Perception, and your WIS is 1d6, then it would be 2d6 + Perception.
In the case of Lini, it has been stated a number of times. that while her power allows her to roll a 1d10 instead of her 1d4, her base is still 1d4. So for a STR check using a BoG for Lini, if she discards a card also, then her roll will be 1d10 + 1d4.
OK, that's me corrected...
That makes BotGods much less powerful (especially for Lini).
Can you point me to somewhere in the rule book or forums that mentions that BotGods only "adds one die of the base check". Would like to read around this a bit to understand where it comes from and understand it better.
I posted a similar thread on BGG and the consensus (three different people) seemed to be that you can add the boosted die, so it seems to be a common mistake!
Q1) Has been answered before. You add just the skill die. So if you have a skill that is d12+4, and then a blessing is played you would get 2d12+4 not 2d12+8. If your skill is d6 and you play a weapon that gives a d10, then play a blessing, your roll is 2d6+1d10. There is no choice of die.
Q2) I actually agree with h4ppy here. If a blessing is played and then Lini switches her strength dice to a d10, you would still roll 2d10.
For example if Lini discards a card to change her d4 to d10 then plays a blessing she rolls 2d10 for that strength check.
But I would also rule that if she plays the blessing first than discards a card to change the d4 to a d10 she would still roll 2d10 rather then 1d10+1d4.
Why? Why not it is a coop game. There is no tactical advantage to the order of card play, so why punish a player for making a random decision.
Q1) Has been answered before. You add just the skill die. So if you have a skill that is d12+4, and then a blessing is played you would get 2d12+4 not 2d12+8. If your skill is d6 and you play a weapon that gives a d10, then play a blessing, your roll is 2d6+1d10. There is no choice of die.
OK, noted. I'll break the bad news to the group when I teach them the game ]:-)
(If possible I'd appreciate a link to an official answer to this from Vic or Mike, since as written I don't see why it needs to be limited to the skill die.)
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Q2) I actually agree with h4ppy here. If a blessing is played and then Lini switches her strength dice to a d10, you would still roll 2d10.For example if Lini discards a card to change her d4 to d10 then plays a blessing she rolls 2d10 for that strength check.
But I would also rule that if she plays the blessing first than discards a card to change the d4 to a d10 she would still roll 2d10 rather then 1d10+1d4.
Why? Why not it is a coop game. There is no tactical advantage to the order of card play, so why punish a player for making a random decision.
Maybe it's something to do with Lini's power?
"You may discard a card to roll d10 instead of your Strength or Dexterity die for any check"
Her power doesn't increase her Strength, it just lets her roll 1d10 instead of her Strength, so the underlying skill is still 1d4 so that's what you need to add with the you-have-no-choice-it-must-be-the-skill-die interpretation of the BotGods card?
Edit: Ignore all this stuff about Lini's power... you DO get to add 1d10 if you "add a die" to a check that Lini has boosted with Bear Strength. See my comment below.
Here are Vic's board messages:
http://paizo.com/people/VicWertz/posts
Here are Mike's board messages here and at bgg:
http://paizo.com/people/MikeSelinker/posts
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/browse/boardgame/0?username=mike%20selinke r&sort=recent
I'm looking for some more official clarification of what is meant by a "die". You'd think it would be easy, right?
I sure did! However turned out it was not.
In my opinion a die is a physical object that you can roll to get a random result. Any bonus is not part of the actual die, but is part of the roll.
This generates some weird effects in your cases 3 to 5, which we can houserule or hope for an errata.
Blessing of the Gods adds "1 die" to a check. Is this any one of the physical dice used in the check? Or any one of the physical stats dice used in the check? Or one of the stats? E.g. If I have "1d6 + 1" Dexterity and play a weapon that adds 1d8 to my combat check what are my options for BotGods' "die"?
I'm pretty sure that it adds 1d8 (my choice of a single physical die that's currently in the pool), but would be nice to be sure!
Blessing: Blessing cards often allow you to add dice to checks attempted by any player, including yourself, at any location. The die or dice added are of the type defined by the situation and the skill that the character is using for the check; the character must already have an appropriate skill to make the check.
I read this as "a blessing adds the same die as the skill you are using". In your example BotG adds a 1d6 (assuming you used a ranged weapon). Final roll: 2d6+1+1d8
Do "add 1 die" effects resolve immediately or not until the "Assemble your dice" phase? E.g. if I play BotGods whilst my Strength is 1d4 then later (through simple-mindedness) play a power that boosts Strength to 1d10 can I 'change' BotGods' die to a d10? In other words does it resolve as "add one die that's already in the pool" or as "add one bonus die that you can decide on in the Assemble dice phase"?
I'm pretty sure it's "a bonus die you can decide on later", but hope to clarify.
Dice are gathered in the assemble dice phase, that is the moment I look what dice I need to roll, taking into account all cards that affect the check. In your example BotG would add a 1d10 as that is your Str
One of Lini's powers says "You may discard a card to roll d10 instead of your Strength or Dexterity die for any check". What is my "Strength die"? The physical die, or the die + bonuses? E.g. if my Strength (with feat) is "1d4 + 1" would using this power get me to (a) "1d10 + 1" or (b) just 1d10? (does it replace my entire Strength 'power' or just replace the basic die I use for Strength checks?)
IMO Bonuses are not part of the die: replace one type of object with another one (1d10 for 1d4). Final result would be 1d10+1 (is consistent with the blessing not adding a bonus, however this does not feel right)
Seoni also has a power like this: "...discard any card to roll your Arcane die + 1d6...". Her Arcane (with no feats) is Charisma + 2 = "1d12 + 2", so would using this power result in her rolling (a) "1d12 + 2 + 1d6" or (b) just "1d12 + 1d6"?
IMO Bonuses are not part of the die: roll 1d12+1d6 (is consistent with the blessing not adding a bonus, however this does not feel right)
If Seoni has lots of feats such that her Charisma is "1d12 + 3" and her power is "...discard any card to roll your Arcane die + 1d6 + 1 ..." would the resulting roll be:
(total Arcane) + (total power) =
(total Charisma + 2) + (total power) =
"1d12 + 3 + 2 + 1d6 + 1"?
IMO Bonuses are not part of the die: roll 1d12+1d6+1 (is consistent with the blessing not adding a bonus, however this still does not feel right)
About Q2:
What I meant is that she can't play a BotGods and after that play another card or use another power to change the die of the roll, because the latter is done in the "Determine Which Die You’re Using" step and the former is done at the "Play Cards That Affect the Check" step, and those steps must follow the specific order on the Rulebook.
For example, Lini has to make a Strength check (combat or not). In the "Determine Which Die You’re Using", Lini uses her power, changing the Strength die from d4 to d10. Then, on the "Play Cards That Affect the Check", she plays the BotGods, adding another d10 to the check. (Thus I disagree with TClifford and agree with h4ppy and Youperguy, except on the fact that you can't play BotGods and later change the die)
About Q2:
What I meant is that she can't play a BotGods and after that play another card or use another power to change the die of the roll, because the latter is done in the "Determine Which Die You’re Using" step and the former is done at the "Play Cards That Affect the Check" step, and those steps must follow the specific order on the Rulebook.For example, Lini has to make a Strength check (combat or not). In the "Determine Which Die You’re Using", Lini uses her power, changing the Strength die from d4 to d10. Then, on the "Play Cards That Affect the Check", she plays the BotGods, adding another d10 to the check. (Thus i disagree with TClifford and agree with h4ppy and Youperguy, except on the fact that you can't play BotGods and later change the die)
I don't want to side-track this thread but I'm pretty sure this is not the way to look at things!
None of the cards/powers mentioned in this thread are played during the "Determine which Skill You're Using" step. Knowing that you're going to play one might influence your choice of which skill to choose but you do not actually play BotGods or use Lini's power in the "Determine which Skill You're Using" step.
In this step you just choose, e.g., "Strength" and then move on. I'm 96.2% sure that you're not fixing the physical die at this step, just choosing which skill is going to be tested.
In the "Play Cards/Powers That Affect the Check" step you can then play BotGods and use Lini's power (in any order). The end result, from the Vic-the-horse's mouth is that you end up with...
...
...2d10.
(Not 1d10 + 1d4, sorry Zairos and TClifford)
Here's a link to one of Vic's posts that mentions this.
OK. That's Q1 and Q2 closed off. Hooray!
Agreed! I stand corrected. =)
My confusion came from the sentence "Some cards may allow you to replace the required skill for a check with a different one; you may play only 1 card or use only 1 power that changes the skill you are going to use." (p.11) but, after reading that again, it seems that Lini's power is in fact not played at that moment (but Seoni's is!).
Agreed! I stand corrected. =)
My confusion came from the sentence "Some cards may allow you to replace the required skill for a check with a different one; you may play only 1 card or use only 1 power that changes the skill you are going to use." (p.11), but reading again it seems that Lini's power is in fact not played at that moment (but Seoni's is!).
I'm glad we're agreed - makes me warm and fuzzy inside :)
Seoni's lets you use Arcane for a combat check (i.e. choose 'Arcane' as the skill to use for the check). Lini's just lets you boost the skill you're already using.
OK - lets try and dig up some official answers for Q3, Q4 and Q5!
It would seem to me that we can't have it both ways... either Lini or Seoni's power is going to be reduced by an official ruling, unless Seoni's card is a typo which should be written "...roll your Arcane + 1d6..." (instead of "...roll your Arcane die + 1d6...")?
Saying "roll your Arcane" as opposed to "roll your Arcane die" would be inconsistent with the wording in pretty much all cards in the game.
Lightning touch, Acid Arrow, Force Missile, etc. all say "For your combat check, discard this card roll your Arcane die..."
And any +X modifiers to your Arcane die from feats clearly apply when you play those cards. It seems clear to me that they would carry over when you use Seoni's ability, too.
Weapons like Quarterstaff, Mace, etc, say something like "For your combat check, reveal this card to roll your Strength or Melee die..." I think that should be interpreted as "roll your Strength [die] or your Melee die." With this in mind, I can find no instances on card text or character abilities that simply say "Roll your [Skill]," they all say "Roll your [Skill] die."
As for Lini's ability, I think the way it works is this:
1. Are you attempting a Strength or Dexterity check?
-No -> You can't use this ability now. Go to step 4.
-Yes -> You may choose to use this ability. Go to step 2 if you choose to do so; otherwise, go to step 3.
2. Use a d10 for the check. No modifiers from Dexterity or Strength apply, regardless of whether it's a Strength or Dexterity check. Go to step 4.
3. If it's a Strength check, use your Strength die (d4 + any feat modifiers). If it's a Dexterity check, use your Dexterity die (d6 + any feat modifiers). Go to step 4.
4. Continue carrying out the check as normal (play cards to modify the check, roll, resolve, etc.)
OK, QuantumNinja, so you reckon "your <Xyz Skill> die" means your physical die and all bonuses, in all situations?
I.e. for Lini, swapping your "Strength die" for 1d10 means you lose any Strength feats. And for Seoni, rolling your "Arcane die" means you get the Charisma die + Charisma feats + 2 for her Arcane bonus.
I'm (relatively) happy with this, but want to see some links to an official ruling or comment from the designers somewhere to be sure!
(I say relatively happy because it's bad news for Lini, who I would more naturally prefer to play over Seoni :) )
OK, QuantumNinja, so you reckon "your <Xyz Skill> die" means your physical die and all bonuses, in all situations?
Precisely. Otherwise, the game would be very inconsistent with its terminology.
Blessings are tricky, because they just say "add 1 dice" or "add 2 dice." Since they're not referencing a particular Skill die, any bonuses from that skill don't apply for a Blessing's effect. This is also explained explicitly in the rulebook, so it's fine.
If a Blessing of Calistria, instead of saying "Add 2 dice to a noncombat Dexterity Check" said "Add 2 Dexterity dice to a noncombat Dexterity Check", then I think any Dexterity bonuses would apply for both additional rolls. For example, Dexterity die = d6 + 1, would become 3d6 + 3 if you played the Blessing when attempting a noncombat Dexterity check.
If the intent for Lini's ability is for Strength/Dexterity bonuses to carry over to the d10, then I think the wording is off. I think something like this would be better:
"When attempting a Strength or Dexterity check, you may discard a card to change your die to a d10."
That would be consistent with the generic "die" terminology in the wording of Blessings.
OK - all makes sense! ...but could still be wrong ;)
OK - all makes sense! ...but could still be wrong ;)
Ok, glad it makes sense to someone else!
I acknowledge that it could be wrong, but I think my head will explode from confusion if an official ruling contradicts what I wrote.
At the very least, I think Lini's power would require an errata / rewording if her Strength / Dexterity bonuses are meant to carry over to the d10. I can say see no way to logically make that conclusion from the way the power is worded now and the way "Strength Die / Dexterity Die" are defined everywhere else in the game.
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After a quick search on Vic's posts, found this:
Shikutz wrote:
if a blessing gives 2 die to a check, is the character able to choose which die to duplicate? e.g. druid lini discards a card for wild shape d10 to strength and reveals a crow for an additional d4; if a blessing is played that gives 2 additional die to his check will he be able to choose 2 additional d10's or does he receive an additional d10 and d4?
There's no choice to be made—the extra die is whatever die the player is rolling for the ability that they're using on the check. In your example, Lini is rolling a d10 for her strength check, so when you add a die to that check, you're always adding a d10. (You don't double up any other dice or bonuses.) So she'd roll 3d10+d4.
Guess I am wrong again. Maybe it was in that thread, but I could have sworn Vic or Mike stated that the power is that you can roll a 1d10 for the STR, but since it didn't state you are changing the STR to a 1d10, that you have to use the base. I remember that because I thought it would be 2d10 with the BoG, but was told I was wrong and it should be 1d10 + 1d4....
Guess I am wrong again. Maybe it was in that thread, but I could have sworn Vic or Mike stated that the power is that you can roll a 1d10 for the STR, but since it didn't state you are changing the STR to a 1d10, that you have to use the base. I remember that because I thought it would be 2d10 with the BoG, but was told I was wrong and it should be 1d10 + 1d4....
I may be wrong on this, but here's my interpretation of how it works.
Here's the steps from "Attempting a Check" in the rulebook.
-1. Determine Which Die You’re Using
-2. Determine the Difficulty
-3. Play Cards That Affect the Check (Optional)
-4. Use Characters’ Powers (Optional)
-5. Assemble Your Dice
-6. Make the Roll
-7. Take Damage, If Necessary
-8. Resolve the Encounter
Let's say Lini is attempting a combat check. Rulebook says she may attempt a combat check with either her Strength skill or her Melee skill. She doesn't have the Melee skill, so she chooses her Strength skill, which is d4 (assume she has no feat to boost it). Alternatively, she could also choose to a d4 for Melee (rulebook says you can always use a d4 if you don't have a specific skill).
Step 1. Here is when she could discard a card to use her power, which changes her Strength die (d4) to a d10. She may not play any additional cards or powers in this step. This d10 becomes her "die" for the rest of the check.
Step 2. This is straightforward.
Step 3. Now is when you can play blessings. She plays Blessing of Gorum, which gives her 2 dice to this Strength-based combat check. These two dice are d10s, because that is what she chose for her "die" in step 1. She also plays Guidance here, which gives +1 to the check, for a total of 3d10 + 1.
Step 4. This is where she can use her power "You may reveal an ally with the Animal trait to add 1d4 to your check." She reveals an animal ally to give her an additional 1d4, for a total of 3d10 + 1d4 + 1.
Steps 5-8. These are straightforward.
Now, if Lini had feats to boost her Strength die to 1d + 2, she would still have 3d10 + 1d4 + 1 for her check if she followed the exact same sequence above. That's because the d10 from her power would still replace her Strength die during step 1.
If she instead chose Melee for this combat check, instead of Strength, her "die" would be 1d4 for the check because she doesn't have the Melee skill. Since she doesn't have Melee on her character card, it's not a Strength-based combat check for her (it would be for someone like Valeros, who does have Melee under Strength). Thus, Blessing of Gorum can only give her 1 extra d4 (instead of 2). With Guidance and her other power, her Melee check would be 3d4 + 1 in this example.
Wait, step one is not where she use her power to change the die, she just says she is going to use her strength. Step 4 is where she sues her power.
If she uses blessing of gorum at step 3 she gets 2 extra die to a strength based combat check. Then she sues her power to get a d10 for strength, and the animal ally.
Then she assembles the dice which are 3 d10 +d4. So we come up with the same thing, you are just using the power during the wrong step.
And i thing a skill bonus to strength still applies.
Wait, step one is not where she use her power to change the die, she just says she is going to use her strength. Step 4 is where she sues her power.
If she uses blessing of gorum at step 3 she gets 2 extra die to a strength based combat check. Then she sues her power to get a d10 for strength, and the animal ally.
Then she assembles the dice which are 3 d10 +d4. So we come up with the same thing, you are just using the power during the wrong step.
And i thing a skill bonus to strength still applies.
My reasoning is subtle, but I think she *has* to play her "replace Strength die with d10" power during step 1.
That step is called "Determine Which Die You're Using" inside the rulebook. To me, that's exactly what the power is doing. It's determining which die she's using for the check.
Here's where it gets fuzzy though. The rulebook says during this step, "you may play only 1 card or use only 1 power that changes the skill you are going to use." Granted, her power isn't really changing the *skill* she is going to use, it's changing the *die* she's going to use.
Something like Force Missile ("For your combat check, discard this card to roll your Arcane die...") is clearly changing the skill for a combat check to Arcane, so that evidently must be played in step 1.
But what about Mace ("For your combat check, reveal this card to roll your Strength or Melee die...")? Combat checks are already Strength or Melee checks by default, so Mace isn't really changing the skill for the check. But it has the exact same syntax as Force Missile, which gets played during Step 1. It would be very strange if Force Missile gets played in Step 1 but Mace does not. They're both effectively doing the same thing, which is determining the die you're using for the check. Again, Step 1 is even called "Determine Which Die You're Using", so it seems like that's the time those cards must be played.
Step 3, as I interpret it, is when you play cards that boost whatever "die" you chose in Step 1. So this would be when you can play cards that say "add 1d4 to your check" or "add another die to your check" or "add 1 to your check."
Since Lini's power "use a d10 instead of your Strength / Dexterity die" is not adding anything to her check, it's determining the die she's using, it seems natural to me that it gets played in Step 1, not Step 3.
If her power is played during Step 3, that seems to open up the weird timing issues that Vic was referring to in this this post.
Wait, step one is not where she use her power to change the die, she just says she is going to use her strength. Step 4 is where she sues her power.
If she uses blessing of gorum at step 3 she gets 2 extra die to a strength based combat check. Then she sues her power to get a d10 for strength, and the animal ally.
Then she assembles the dice which are 3 d10 +d4. So we come up with the same thing, you are just using the power during the wrong step.
And i thing a skill bonus to strength still applies.
My reasoning is subtle, but I think she *has* to play her "replace Strength die with d10" power during step 1.
That step is called "Determine Which Die You're Using" inside the rulebook. To me, that's exactly what the power is doing. It's determining which die she's using for the check.
Here's where it gets fuzzy though. The rulebook says during this step, "you may play only 1 card or use only 1 power that changes the skill you are going to use." Granted, her power isn't really changing the *skill* she is going to use, it's changing the *die* she's going to use.
I think you should read the name of this phase as "Determine the Skill You're Using", which is how it is written on the back page of the rulebook. If you change the heading on p11 to read this way (swapping the word 'die' for 'skill' in the heading) then the whole section makes (much better) sense.
As far as I can tell this step is about fixing in place which skill you're going to test. I saw some mention of this by Vic or Mike in another thread saying that this step was added to stop shenanigans where you can gain some edge-case benefit by gaining/switching skills at a later date. I'm too new at this to understand the details of that edge case (possibly something like playing cards from your hand that affect multiple types of skill check so you have no cards left for damage??), but that's my understanding!
If something changes which SKILL you're going to use then play it in the first step. The whole party can only play one such effect, and then your chosen skill is set in stone.
Edit:
I just saw the link in your post. That's exactly why you should read that step as "Determine the Skill You're Using". Lini's power doesn't change the skill (it just buffs the dice used by that skill) so happens in the later 'affect the check' step.
The other thing to note is that your steps 3 and 4 are actually one step (again, look at the back page of the rulebook), which is "Play Cards that Affect Your Check and/or Use Characters’ Powers (optional)". In other words you can play powers and cards in any order.
Yeah, i think " determine which skill you are using" is a good way to look at it. I think skill and die are used interchangeably at times.
Basically what i see happening at that step is more like a deceleration of what skill you are going to use to attempt the check. At this point you can use a power or card to change the skill. In Lini's case you are not changing the skill, it's still strength. But in Sajan's case you are, so this is where you would declare that you are going to use dex instead of strength for him.
After you have declared what skill you are going to use cards can be played and powers that affect the check and skill/die you declared. Not sure why there needs to be a specific order to this, but if you follow the rules it would cards then powers.
So once that's all done, you assemble the dice, this is the culmination of all the cards and powers used combined, modifiers that accompany the skill you are using should apply. Roll'em and see what happens.
I think it's as straight forward as that.
Basically what i see happening at that step is more like a deceleration of what skill you are going to use to attempt the check. At this point you can use a power or card to change the skill. In Lini's case you are not changing the skill, it's still strength. But in Sajan's case you are, so this is where you would declare that you are going to use dex instead of strength for him.
It's a combat check. I play Force Missile ("For your combat check, reveal this card to roll your Arcane die...") to use my Arcane die instead of my Strength/Melee die. Thus, this is played in step 1. Agree or disagree?
It's a combat check. I play Mace ("For your combat check, reveal this card to roll your Strength or Melee die..."). Even though this doesn't change the skill of the check, it still has the same syntax as Force Missile, so it should be played in step 1. Agree or disagree?
It's a combat check. I use Lini's power, which is effectively equivalent to "For your strength check, use this power to roll a d10 instead of your Strength die. For your Dexterity check, use this power to roll a d10 instead of your Dexterity die". It's functionally the same as the above two examples, so it gets played during step 1. Agree or disagree?
Yes, I see what your getting out. It is confusing.
I think you can still declare that you are going to use your arcane die in step 1, and then play the card two steps later, but that is kind of silly.
A combat check is a bit looser than a very specific check, meaning that there are lots of skills that can be used to deal with it, so you can declare you are going to use arcane and play the card at the appropriate step.
If a check gives you a few options you pick one of the skills, and then play cards at the appropriate steps in the sequence.
I think many cards/powers are worded as "roll/use your #SKILL# die" when they should be "roll/use your #SKILL# skill" (this one meaning the skill die plus any modifiers).
My take is that Lini power is worded right, but Seoni's power and the Mace card (to use examples already mentioned on this thread) should be written, respectively "... you may discard a card to roll your Arcane skill + 1d6..." and "...reveal this card to roll your Strength or Melee skill... ".
That would clear up the confusion, I think, but I don't know the designer's intentions for each card/power.
I think many cards/powers are worded as "roll/use your #SKILL# die" when they should be "roll/use your #SKILL# skill" (this one meaning the skill die plus any modifiers).
My take is that Lini power is worded right, but Seoni's power and the Mace card (to use examples already mentioned on this thread) should be written, respectively "... you may discard a card to roll your Arcane skill + 1d6..." and "...reveal this card to roll your Strength or Melee skill... ".
That would clear up the confusion, I think, but I don't know the designer's intentions for each card/power.
But the "roll/use your #SKILL# die" language is virtually *everywhere* in the game, and I can't find any instances of "roll/use your #SKILL# skill".
I'm trying to give the designers / editors enough credit to assume that they use the "roll/use your #SKILL# die" terminology consistently in all cases. It seems pretty well-established in 99% of the cases that "roll/use your #SKILL# die" means to include any feat bonuses.
If you assume the game is consistent on this in all cases, I think you logically have to conclude that Lini's power does not transfer Strength / Dexterity feat bonuses to the d10.
"You may discard a card to roll d10 instead of your Strength or Dexterity die for any check." With the above interpretation of "#SKILL# die", that sentence, as worded, means "For a strength check, instead of rolling your Strength die (d4+bonuses), roll a d10. For a dexterity check, instead of rolling your Dexterity die (d6+bonuses), roll a d10."
If the designers want the bonuses to apply to the d10, the power needs to be reworded in an errata, in my opinion. "You may discard a card to change your die to a d10 for a strength or dexterity check" is a step in the right direction. Maybe it's still ambiguous, but I think it's at least consistent with their wording everywhere else (Blessings, in particular).
Here's a thematic reason why I think Lini's shapeshift power can't be played during the step "Play Cards that Affect Your Check and/or Use Characters’ Powers."
Hopefully you buy my argument about how spells like Force Missile and weapons like Mace are played during the step "Determine the Skill/Die You’re Using."
Let's say Lini plays weapon like a Mace or a Great Axe in the step "Determine the Skill/Die You’re Using."
If she can additionally play her shapeshift power in the step "Play Cards that Affect Your Check and/or Use Characters’ Powers"... what is that supposed to represent... a mace-wielding bear? A great axe-wielding bear?
Assuming her shapeshift must be played in the "Determine the Skill/Die You’re Using" step avoids thematically silly situations like that.
How about a mace wielding gorilla? Nothing wrong with that. :)
Nothing wrong with an axe-wielding bear, unless you're on the other side...
To me I would say that Mace and Lini's power are both played in the 'affect the check' phase. So long as you chose "strength" you can use Mace, and you can also use Lini's power to boost that strength to 1d10.
I'm prepared to be wrong on this, but it seems ok to me.
Cards you have to play in the first 'choose your skill step', to me, are ones which give you a new option that you didn't have before. For example, Seoni's blast gives you a new option (to use your Arcane skill for a combat check) so that goes in phase 1.
Having voiced my opposition to your opinion on that part of things, I must say I totally agree with you (having played the game again tonight) about "Skill die" meaning "the physical die you use for a given Skill plus all bonuses". This means that Lini's power is slightly worse but that's the way it is.
However, "add a die" (e.g. on BotGods) seems to mean "add one die without bonuses".
So... answering my own questions, I would say that the answers are:
Q1: Blessing of the Gods adds "1 die" to a check. Is this any one of the physical dice used in the check? Or any one of the physical stats dice used in the check? Or one of the stats? E.g. If I have "1d6 + 1" Dexterity and play a weapon that adds 1d8 to my combat check what are my options for BotGods' "die"?
Adding 1 die is always adding the base (physical) die of the SKILL used in the check. In this example, the answer is you add "1d6" to get a total of "2d6 + 1 + 1d8" (Dexterity + BotGods die + Weapon).
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Q2: Do "add 1 die" effects resolve immediately or not until the "Assemble your dice" phase? E.g. if I play BotGods whilst my Strength is 1d4 then later (through simple-mindedness) play a power that boosts Strength to 1d10 can I 'change' BotGods' die to a d10? In other words does it resolve as "add one die that's already in the pool" or as "add one bonus die that you can decide on in the Assemble dice phase"?
Answer: Not until the assemble your dice phase, when they add one more of the physical die used by your SKILL.
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Q3: One of Lini's powers says "You may discard a card to roll d10 instead of your Strength or Dexterity die for any check". What is my "Strength die"? The physical die, or the die + bonuses? E.g. if my Strength (with feat) is "1d4 + 1" would using this power get me to (a) "1d10 + 1" or (b) just 1d10? (does it replace my entire Strength 'power' or just replace the basic die I use for Strength checks?)
Answer (b) - Lini just gets 1d10, since her entire strength skill is replaced by the power.
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Q4: Seoni also has a power like this: "...discard any card to roll your Arcane die + 1d6...". Her Arcane (with no feats) is Charisma + 2 = "1d12 + 2", so would using this power result in her rolling (a) "1d12 + 2 + 1d6" or (b) just "1d12 + 1d6"?
Answer (a) - she gets her whole Arcane, inc bonus, plus the 1d6 from the power.
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Q5: If Seoni has lots of feats such that her Charisma is "1d12 + 3" and her power is "...discard any card to roll your Arcane die + 1d6 + 1 ..." would the resulting roll be (a):
(total Arcane) + (total power) =
(total Charisma + 2) + (total power) =
"1d12 + 3 + 2 + 1d6 + 1"?Or would it just be (b):
(Arcane physical die) + (total power) =
"1d12 + 1d6 + 1"?
Answer (a) = total Arcane + total power = 1d12 + 1d6 + 6 (Ka-BOOM!)
I'm glad we got that sorted!?!
Over to you guys to tell me I'm barking up the wrong tree again :)
Can someone official please clarify this fundamental game process as this thread is bouncing from die to bonus every which way.
I read it differently you select the skill which selects a die and any bonus. If you replace the die you still have the bonus. Why imply replace the die + bonus when it only instructs to change the die?
As the character progresses his bonus will probably increase (as noted previously) it make no sense that a power would reduce this experience.
In Summary the first step defines skill die + skill bonus , which may be modified in this step or additional steps by switching or adding other die or dice and by adding an additional bonus.
When a card or power adds a bonus you do not discard the base or any other die so why discard the bonus when you change a die.
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OK. Just when I thought this was clear in my head I went to sleep. And after sleeping on it I have come up with something slightly different...
Here's the new thought process...
Encounter resolution follows these steps:
1) Determine the Skill You’re Using
2) Determine the Difficulty
3) Play Cards that Affect Your Check and/or Use Characters’ Powers [that Affect Your Check]
4) Assemble Your Dice
5) Make the Roll
6) Take Damage, if necessary
7) Resolve the Check
In step (1) you need to fix which 'stat' you're testing for this Encounter. E.g. if it's an unarmed combat check your choices are, by default, "Strength" or "Melee".
Some cards may allow you to replace the required skill for a check with a different one; you may play only 1 card or use only 1 power that changes the skill you are going to use.
During this step the party (you or another character) can play ONE (character or card) power that makes a new stat (or stats) eligible for this situation, and you must then choose one of the stats from the power played. E.g. Seoni's power lets you choose "Arcane" for a combat check.
Step (2) is straightforward.
In step (3) each character may play one of each type of card and may apply each of their character powers once, provided that the chosen power makes a difference to the stat you've already chosen. E.g. if Seoni used her power, you can only play powers that affect/improve Arcane. During this step you cannot play random cards like Cure since they are not relevant to the encounter (before my first game I wondered how 'healing during combat' was prevented and this is the key).
Players may not play cards at this time unless the cards affect your check; players may not play cards that modify a skill unless you’re using that skill, and players may not play cards that affect combat unless you’re attempting a combat check. If a card states that it is immune to a particular trait, players may not play cards with the specified trait.
For step (4) you assemble the physical dice determined by the Skill you're using and the powers in effect.
In step (5) you roll the dice, add them up and then add ALL (fixed number) bonuses that apply to the skill being used and/or the check itself. In other words Lini does still get to add her strength feats after using her 1d10 Strength power. You then compare your total (dice + bonuses - penalties) to the check level and pass or fail.
Steps (6) and (7) are fairly straightforward. After step (7) is completed you then roll any checks to recharge cards used during the encounter, each one having its own, isolated, check. You do these in any order you wish until there's nothing outstanding left to check.
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So, to summarise...
the answer to my question, after all the comments above, would seem to be that a 'die' is a 'die'... it's easy when you know the answer :)
The bonuses/feats/etc are not part of the DIE. They are just added in step (5) if you used the related skill for the check.
This reverses my assertion from my previous post:
Having voiced my opposition to your opinion on that part of things, I must say I totally agree with you (having played the game again tonight) about "Skill die" meaning "the physical die you use for a given Skill plus all bonuses". This means that Lini's power is slightly worse but that's the way it is.
This is not the case. I now believe that a "Skill die" means just that... the physical die you use to test the given Skill.
I would now explain Lini and Seoni's powers as follows:
Lini: "You may discard a card to roll d10 instead of your Strength or Dexterity die for any check"
This power is played in step (3). It changes Lini's Strength/Dexterity die to a 1d10. Whichever skill is chosen still gets to add its feats and other bonuses in step (5).
So if Lini has (and uses):
Strength: 1d4 + 2
Animal Power: "You may reveal an ally with the Animal trait to add 1d4 ([x]+1) ([ ]+2) to your check."
Bear strength power as above
When doing a strength check without using any powers she would get to roll: 1d4 + 2
With using both her powers she would swap the physical die for 1d10 in step (4), add an extra 1d4 to the pool for step (4) and also get an extra +1 bonus from the animal power's feat in step (5). She ends up with 1d10 + 1d4 + 3
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Seoni: "For your combat check, you may discard any card to roll your Arcane die + 1d6 ([ ]+1) ([ ]+2) with the ... traits. This counts as playing a spell."
This power is played in step (1) and lets her choose Arcane instead of Strength/Melee for the combat check. It also prevents her from playing any other spells for this check.
In step (4) she assembles 1d12 + 1d6 for her dice.
In step (5) she adds +2 (her bonus for testing Arcane). If she has any relevant feats they would add more bonuses here.
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OK, that's got to be right this time. Surely?!?
Well, at least until next time...
As far as I can tell (this was a long read), you have it right in your last post.
Awesome. Because he is pretty much on the same exact page as me. Check out my post in the Amulets of Fists thread where I'm trying to find my way to a similar explanation.
Thank goodness for that.
We got there in the end - thanks to everyone who participated in the debate and helped nudge my sleeping mind to the correct conclusion.
Thanks also to Mike for chiming in on the weekend!
So, just one more thing to make sure i've got it.
If i do not play a card (weapon, spell etc) or power during step 1 to change the skill i am using for the check, then by default I will be using my strength or melee skill for the combat check?
Once I have made it to step 3 and 4 I can still play cards and powers that affect the skill I have selected granted that they are not the same type as the one I have already used at step 1.
Assemble dice and that's it?
Yes. That's how I understand it.
@Tracker1: Yes, I think that's correct.
After beating this whole sequence thing to death. I'm still not clear on why it really matters.
When I have been playing i pretty much assemble the dice as i play the cards, so if Im going to play the inflict spell with the divine trait and I'm kyra in a combat check with an undead monster. i play the spell, grab my d12 and d6, then I recharge the saber-toothed cat and grab another d6. I bury the blessing of Lamashtu, and grab 2 more d12s, and use Her power to grab a d8.
Now that i have the dice sitting in front of me I roll'em and add her divine +2 bonus and any more feat bonus to the roll let's say +1.
So she rolled 3d12 + 2d6 + 1d8 + 3 and got a 44! That was a real roll.
I'd say the that undead is dead!
Did I play that wrong? Is there any reason to wait to assemble the dice later?
I can see that with Lini that might be an issue, but if it is obvious you are going to discard to use her power, why not just grab the d10 from the start and any blessings played will obviously be a d10.
Is the order just to get you started, and then when you are more familiar with the rules, you can play it a little more freely? Or might that lead to a major error?
Edit: maybe this order might also assume you are playing with just the die given to you with the base set, and that you don't roll all dice together, so keeping everything organized until the end will help if you are only rolling one type of die multiple times, but I'm sure there is some other logic to it that has already been discussed in this thread.
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Yes! Tracker1 you're getting it! We need to stop all this fretting about what freaking order we are playing cards and just play the game. It's too fun to be worrying about all this minutia. We aren't playing against anyone but fate and luck. You don't have to worry about if your opponent is going to find some perfect combo that takes you out in one round. Just play!
Good work, h4ppy. I think you pretty much nailed it. That was a good catch on the whole thing about modifiers coming into play during step 5.
So I stand corrected on my interpretation. Thank you for hashing this out. This is exactly the kind of understanding of the rules I was hoping would come out of this discussion.
I think one consequence of this is that when Sajan uses his power "When you attempt a combat check without playing a weapon, you may use your Dexterity die instead of your Strength die" ... his Dexterity modifiers won't apply, but his Strength & Melee modifiers will. Do you agree?
@TClifford - the reason I spelled out the sequence was to clarify two main things, and lay the logic out in the hope that it would help me and others to figure out our own answers to other issues that come up.
The two main things are:
(a) it explains why BotGods adds the die you end up with for your skill instead of whatever it was at the time you played BotGods (i.e. why the order you play powers in step (3) doesn't really matter)
and
(b) it explains how and when bonuses get applied to a roll, which was not previously clear to me (or others)
@Tracker1 - what you're doing is fine. Just remember that if the skill's die changes before you are meant to "Assemble your dice" you might need to change some of the dice you've hoarded already. (E.g if you play BotGods first and then boost the underlying skill's die.)
@QuantumNinja - sorry, but I don't think that's right. Sajan's skill is one that's played in step (1). It just means that he can use Dexterity for a combat check instead of the usual choice of Strength or Melee. See Vic's comments about this here.
Ok, after thinking about it a little more, I think you're also right about Sajan's power.
It seems there really needed to be more though about the use of the words die, skill, use, replace, modifier.
Logically it seems the following should be true.
A "die" should be a die (a piece of plastic with sides and numbers).
A "modifier" should be a value added to a die.
A "skill" should include a die and a modifier (even if that modifier is 0).
A "check" should be the skill type being tested (any bonuses should match that type)
"Using" should not change type (use Dex skill for a Str check, the check is strength I just use my Dex die + modifier)
"Replacing" should change the type (replace dex check for str check should change the type)
The nuance between "use" and "replace" has to do with what you are boosting. If I am increasing my skill vs effecting a check.
By this logic Lini should be able to turn a strength of 1d4+2 to 1d10+2 using her power because she is using "1d10 instead of her strength or dexterity die".
But extending this idea leads Sajan's "use your dexterity die instead of your strength die". By the logic above it would be a strength check using the dex die and the str modifier. But according to posts by Vic Wertz this is not true, it becomes a dex check. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q3h3?Amulet-of-Fists#30). But as pointed out above Seoni works the opposite where die is just the die and not the die + modifier but it still does change the check.
Now that I have wasted you time with stuff you already know feel free to play my unofficial variant using the rules above :)
By this logic Lini should be able to turn a strength of 1d4+2 to 1d10+2 using her power because she is using "1d10 instead of her strength or dexterity die".
But extending this idea leads Sajan's "use your dexterity die instead of your strength die". By the logic above it would be a strength check using the dex die and the str modifier. But according to posts by Vic Wertz this is not true, it becomes a dex check. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q3h3?Amulet-of-Fists#30). But as pointed out above Seoni works the opposite where die is just the die and not the die + modifier but it still does change the check.
Now that I have wasted you time with stuff you already know feel free to play my unofficial variant using the rules above :)
With my newly earned profound understanding of the game mechanics, I think that Lini, Sajan and Seoni's powers all work in very similar ways - and they are all consistent (which is the most important thing)!
Lini does turn "1d4 + 2" into "1d10 + 2" when she uses her power. The d10 just replaces the [physical] die used in the check. The bonuses still apply in step (5), as detailed in the timing breakdown above.
Sajan's power is played in step (1) and allows him to use Dex on a combat check, from then on everything is based on Dex instead of Strength/Melee. So you use the Dex bonuses, not the Strength ones, in step (5).
Seoni's power is also played in step (1) and allows her to use Arcane plus some extra bonuses for a combat check. From then on everything is based on Arcane.
I don't think there are any cards which just switch one stat's physical die for another stat's die without also changing which skill you're 'testing'. I.e. there is no "using" as per your definitions. I have only seen a small number of cards so far, but I say this from my new found understanding of how the game mechanics work (which could be wrong).
But extending this idea leads Sajan's "use your dexterity die instead of your strength die". By the logic above it would be a strength check using the dex die and the str modifier. But according to posts by Vic Wertz this is not true, it becomes a dex check. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q3h3?Amulet-of-Fists#30). But as pointed out above Seoni works the opposite where die is just the die and not the die + modifier but it still does change the check.
I think the way to get around this is to drop the notion of the combat check becoming a dexterity check, a strength check, or a melee check.
The way I see it, it's still a combat check and remains a combat check no matter what. You play an ability that lets you roll a certain skill die *for* that check (e.g. with Sajan's power you can decide to use your Strength die or your Dexterity die), not to *transform* the type of check. Whatever skill die you end up deciding to use for the check is the one whose modifiers you will add in the "Make the Roll" step of the check.
By default, Sajan must use his Strength die for a combat check. If he goes with this option, his Strength modifiers get added in when he "Makes the roll" because he's using his Strength die. If Sajan uses his power to use his Dexterity die for the combat check, his Dexterity modifiers get added in when he "Makes the roll" because that's the die he used.
@h4ppy
How is that consistent. in the first example a die is just a piece of plastic, in the second example the die is the skill (die plus modifier).
You are also asserting that things happen in certain phases while the cards make no reference to what phase they take place in. With the vague meaning of the word die you can make several cards fit into either step 1 or 3 (I can post examples when I get home and can look through the cards).
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@h4ppy
How is that consistent. in the first example a die is just a piece of plastic, in the second example the die is the skill (die plus modifier).You are also asserting that things happen in certain phases while the cards make no reference to what phase they take place in. With the vague meaning of the word die you can make several cards fit into either step 1 or 3 (I can post examples when I get home and can look through the cards).
No... in all three cases the die is just the polyhedron. And in all three cases you still get to add all your bonuses for the skill being tested after you've rolled that polyhedron.
Lets see if there's a way I can share my enlightenment :)
For each check you need to pick ONE skill, and one skill only that is the basis for the check. This is done in step (1) and the party may play one card to change what skill is being tested. You then play cards to boost this skill and/or your ability to pass a certain type of check (e.g. some cards boost COMBAT checks but don't care what SKILL you're testing for the combat check, as alluded to by QuantumNinja in his most recent post).
Lini: You may discard a card to roll d10 instead of your Strength or Dexterity die for any check.
To me, this means, in long-hand: "When you are performing a check where the base skill is Strength or Dexterity you can change the physical die that you roll for that skill to 1d10 instead of whatever it normally is. As usual, don't forget that when you get to step 5 add any bonuses you have which affect that skill."
Sajan: When you attempt a combat check without playing a weapon, you may use your Dexterity die instead of your Strength die ([ ] and add the Magic trait) ([ ] and the Fire trait).
To me, this means, in long-hand: "When you face a combat check you can choose to set Dexterity as the base skill for that check. This means that you may play cards to boost your Dexterity to enhance this check (and cannot use cards that only boost Strength). Since it's still a combat check you can still play any cards that apply to Combat checks. When you assemble your dice pick up the physical die associated with Dexterity (either as printed on your character card or as improved by the cards/powers you played on this check). As usual, don't forget that when you get to step 5 add any bonuses you have which affect Dexterity."
Seoni: "For your combat check, you may discard a card to roll your Arcane die + 1d6 ([ ] +1) ([ ] +2) with the Attack, Fire, and Magic traits. This counts as playing a spell.
To me, this means, in long-hand: "When you face a combat check you can choose to discard a card to set Arcane as the base skill for that check. This means that you may play cards to boost your Arcane to enhance this check (and cannot use cards that only boost Strength). You may not play another spell on this check since this power counts as using a spell. Your attack gains the Attack, Fire and Magic traits. Since it's still a combat check you can still play any cards that apply to Combat checks. When you assemble your dice pick up the physical die associated with Arcane (either as printed on your character card or as improved by the cards/powers you played on this check) plus an extra 1d6. As usual, don't forget that when you get to step (5) add any bonuses you have which affect Arcane and add in the extra feats from this power if you have achieved them."
In other words, they're all consistent and work in exactly the same way. It's just that Lini's doesn't let you use a new skill for a given check but Sajan and Seoni's do.