First off, I don't understand why you'd even make a Dwarven paladin. Yeah, there's the flavor. But -2 Charisma? Ouch.
Secondly, I think the meaning of "Lawful Good" may change depending on the deity.
Sarenrae teaches her followers to offer redemption to every evildoer before fighting them.
Iomedae is steadfast against evil, but will protect enemies that surrender.
Damerrich is more or less the Empyreal lord of capital punishment, but will not tolerate the execution of innocents.
Ragathiel's conduct towards evil is literally, "Kill one scumbag per day".
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I didn't write the paladin codes for Torag. I did look them over before they were published and I thought they were fine.
Apparently my mistake in reading that code was assuming that people aren't going to twist words to justify a paladin killing old ladies who can't directly harm said paladin.
Who would have thought that somebody would twist the meaning of a religious text to justify their own views? I'm sure that has never happened, anywhere, ever...
|
Who would have thought that somebody would twist the meaning of a religious text to justify their own views? I'm sure that has never happened, anywhere, ever...I didn't write the paladin codes for Torag. I did look them over before they were published and I thought they were fine.
Apparently my mistake in reading that code was assuming that people aren't going to twist words to justify a paladin killing old ladies who can't directly harm said paladin.
Quite true. However, in Golarion, when they are Paladins who do this to justify committing an evil act they FALL. HARD !!!
If I was a Paladin's God, I would take a very bad view of those who distort my commandments to justify their evil ways.
IMO, it is akin to the old medieval take on committing evil actions and being evil :
A demon will lead you to temptation. It will even possess you or influence you to commit evil acts. This does not make you evil per se.
However, if instead of showing remorse and trying to make things right, you choose to justify the evil act, you are acknowledging it as yours, rather than reject it and all the Devil's works and ways. THIS makes you evil.
|
|
First off, I don't understand why you'd even make a Dwarven paladin. Yeah, there's the flavor. But -2 Charisma? Ouch.
I suspect this was done purposefully because of the hardcore take on Torag's Code, to play a butchering Paladin, either for playing fun or for shock purpose.
Secondly, I think the meaning of "Lawful Good" may change depending on the deity.
Sarenrae teaches her followers to offer redemption to every evildoer before fighting them.
Iomedae is steadfast against evil, but will protect enemies that surrender.
Damerrich is more or less the Empyreal lord of capital punishment, but will not tolerate the execution of innocents.
Ragathiel's conduct towards evil is literally, "Kill one scumbag per day".
That last point is NOT true at all. Ragathiel's boon means "If you find yourself facing evil powers, kill one of the bad guys and I will protect you." Someone who kills a wrongdoer every day, just in case he meets a demon on the way to the market, is IMO akin to the "no prisoners" pseudo-Paladin of Torag mentioned above.
If only we had a book coming out soon that presented the opportunity to clarify this tenet of Torag's faith so there's absolutely no room for differing interpretations. It's a shame when we have to dilute the flavor of the game so that no element of flavor can be treated as a rule and abused under the auspices of RAW, but it is what it is. Needless to say, when we get to the Torag section of Inner Sea Gods, I imagine this point will be one that gets extra attention.
Okay. This makes me worried about what we will find in Inner Sea Gods. Not for Torag, mind you, but for Erastil. I would hate for Old Deadeye to become a whitewashed politically correct deity just because many posters project their modern sensibilities on the Golarion setting. Same thing for Sarenrae and Qadira's wide support for slavery.
I am all for clarifications such as the ones SKR gave above, but I do not wish to see any heavy-handed retcon in that book.
|
First off, I don't understand why you'd even make a Dwarven paladin. Yeah, there's the flavor. But -2 Charisma? Ouch.
Take a look at the stonelord archetype. It changes so many mechanics that charisma suddenly becomes a lot less important. You don't want a negative charisma score so you can at least still use your lay on hands, but uh... yeah. A stonelord can easily get by in spite of that hit to CHA, and do so in style at that. It's a dwarf-only archetype, one that I suspect exists to allow dwarven paladins without damning them because of the gimped charisma.
|
|
Can you source that Dhjika, I did a search of both Mike and Mark's comments and didn't find anything like that?
I ask, because my Paladin also executed a prisoner for War Crimes and Crimes against Creation, because there was no true lawful authority (the legal authority was complicit in the prisoner's crimes) to hand the prisoners over too. My GM complimented the process I put my Paladin through before making the decision to execute the prisoner, but it would be handy for me in the future, especially as a Judge.
I don't know how to link to a specific post - but I have copied it from the torture thread
Yes torture is evil.
Intimidation is when you threaten to do physical harm that would cause maiming, injury, etc...
Torture is when you deliberatly cause pain and suffering to an individual and they are unable to defend themselves. It also includes inflicting such pain for the purposes of obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession or needlessly and excessively punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed (even if you can heal the damage afterwards).
As I tell my six year old, if you have to ask......
Simplest way: R-click on reply on the post you want to copy, open in another Tab, select the test that interest you, CTRL-C, then go to the thread where you want to put your citation, open the new post, CTRL-v to copy the text.
CTL-z to go back 1 action when you do something wrong :P
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For PFS, if Mike or John says it or it gets FAQ'd, it's a rule. For *me*, if Mark Moreland or SKR clarifies something in canon, I'm going to shape my opinion based on that.
Back to the specific OP: you're a Pathfinder, not Interpol. You have no legal authority in Razmir. Torag didn't send you on this mission - some guy in Absalom did, who isn't even a member of Torag's church. In fact, Torag is probably wondering why you're wasting time picking up baubles with the Pathfinders when you should be off fighting goblins and orcs, stuff that really matters.
Yep, the old hags are evil (although not detectably so - they are not high enough level to have an aura to a paladin's detect evil). They're also part of a nation interfering with what you and your friends want to do. They're also non-combatants, who surrender rather than fight.
Torag doesn't kill old ladies who are small cogs while ignoring the big machine they're a part of. If you're going to use Torag as justification, follow it through: "Razmir is a threat to the dwarves based on this incident, so I should drop the Society errands, raise an army, and destroy the Living God once and for all." Killing three old women and then saying, "my job is done, the dwarves are safe now, I'll go do more Pathfinder stuff instead" is an act of cowardice, not one of heroism or faithfulness to Torag.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Am I the only person reading this thread who thinks that there is good justification in Torag's code / the expectation that Venture Captains place on field agents, both to solemnly execute the women and also to offer them mercy as non-combatants?
Two people can role-play that out according to their understanding of the character in question and end up with two different results, and I consider that a strength of the game.
I appreciate Sean taking the time to spell out his game on Torag's code, but I wish that he'd added something like "but that's only my take. I wasn't at the table and I don't know all the particulars of how your GM was presenting things. As long as you were trying to have your PC do right by his god, and people were having fun, you were doing it right."
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Wow. I've played this scenario, but have no idea what people are talking about. I think I might GM-star-replay it this weekend just so I can see how it's actually supposed to go. (Well, also to help level up my 3rd-level PC to help cover more subtiers, as my next one up is about to hit 9th level.)
Maybe some of the PCs are supposed to say something besides "ARE YOU QUESTIONING ME?!" after all...?
Kore as a Pathfinder? That sounds dangerous.
[/plug]