| 44 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Question as thread title: Are mutated bloodlines considered bloodlines for the purposes of the eldritch heritage feat?
This has been debated a lot in other threads and I have no interest in repeating those arguments here (although feel free to, other denizens of the interwebs).
This thread is intended to get FAQ hits.
The wildblooded sorcerer archetype.
Hit dat FAQ, yo, yo, yo. Hit dat FAQ.
Edit: The most common use of this combination is to get the fey bloodline so you can get an animal companion. This tactic has been mostly eclipsed by the animal ally feat, although this is still an option if you want something not on animal ally's list (and it turns out this is legal).
Won't work. :)
Will FAQ
Sorcerer bloodlines are listed as such.
Wildblooded archetype alters some aspects of a sorcerer's bloodline.
They are not new bloodlines themselves.
RAW = Rule as Written
RAI = Rule as Intended
Though they might not be RAW, a DM might consider it an option depending on what he considers RAI.
My opinion is that it doesn't work by RAW, probably wasn't even thought of so no RAI, and it wouldn't be unreasonable to allow it in a home game.
RAW, probably not since it is an archetype so you would need the class that can take the archetype.
IMG (in my games) it definitely works.
|
I don't see the harm in allowing it, and it would be great to get a definitive answer. Like a lot of these questions where most GMs would allow it as a house rule, this is pfs driven. My guess is that the answer will be no, given the previous FAQ on combining Crossblooded and Wildblooded. LINK
I believe the reasoning there was that they are both archetypes that modify the bloodline. If Wildblooded were treated just like a normal bloodline, then it would be able to be combined with Crossblooded.
There's a similar situation with the Black-blooded Oracle. Since it's an archetype, not just a curse, it can't be combined with dual-cursed, even though the only thing black-blooded replaces is the curse.
For whatever reason, the designers chose to make Wildblooded bloodlines an archetype and not just a list of additional bloodlines. If they had treated them like sub domains, it would probably be allowed, but they didn't.
If a Wildblooded Bloodline, isn't a Bloodline, then what is it?
An archetype.
Why couldn't they just be alternate bloodlines?
Are you asking me that? Because I couldn't tell you. I didn't write the archetype. My group doesn't focus too heavily on RAW so it is not a great concern of mine. I, personally, would be fine with picking up wildblood powers with eldritch heritage (except for the animal companion, that seems a little powerful for two feats). I would say the argument against it RAW is that archetypes require you to take all the changes the archetype makes, which cannot be done with eldritch heritage.
A wildblooded sorcerer has a mutated version of a more common bloodline, with one arcana and at least one bloodline power that are different from those of an unmutated bloodline. When creating a wildblooded sorcerer, select an existing bloodline, then select one of the following mutated bloodlines associated with that bloodline. Use the normal bloodline’s class skill, bonus spells, and bonus feats, and the mutated bloodline’s bloodline arcana. Use the normal bloodline’s bloodline powers, except when the mutated bloodline replaces one of those powers.
I don't know why it would really be up for debate? It specifically tells you that it's a bloodline - just a mutated version of it. It grants you bloodline arcana and bloodline powers, and grants you the original bloodline's powers where the mutated bloodline doesn't state a specific 'swap'. It's a bloodline.
Well for one not a single mutated bloodline has a skill listes with it. They eldritch heritage fear doesnt even possess many of the features the wildblood archetypes modifiy.
Well for one not a single mutated bloodline has a skill listes with it. They eldritch heritage fear doesnt even possess many of the features the wildblood archetypes modifiy.
Sure it does.
It says, use the base bloodline except where changes are indicated.
So the skill is the same as the base bloodline.
Sheesh, this is basic rules 101.
A Maine Coon is like a Domestic Shorthair, except for the following :
They are 125% larger
They have long hair (up to 4 inches long)
They have longer tails proportionally
They have ear tufts
Now, does a Maine Coon have fangs? Does he have claws? Nothing in that list said anything about claws, but if you think they don't, I'll get my 8 yo 20 pound Maine Coon and put him in your arms and then scream at the top of my lungs, and you can tell me if he has claws or not as he climbs on top of your head.
Well for one not a single mutated bloodline has a skill listes with it. They eldritch heritage fear doesnt even possess many of the features the wildblood archetypes modifiy.
As mdt points out, it does have a skill listed with it - because it uses the skill of the bloodline on which the mutated line is based.
As to the feat not possessing features modified - I'm not certain what you're talking about? Every wildblooded bloodline has a first-level bloodline power; if it is not explicitly called out in the mutated bloodline then it is the first-level power of whatever bloodline the mutated line is based on.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Setting aside the debate over archetypes vs bloodlines for a moment, Eldritch Heritage only grants you the 1st level bloodline power, not the bloodline arcana. Animal Companion is a bloodline power which also "counts as your bloodline arcana", so I'm not sure if it would work with Eldritch Heritage even if Wildblooded bloodlines are available via the feat (which seems debatable at best). Basically, you can't give up a bloodline arcana to get Animal Companion when you don't have a bloodline arcana to give up.
That's just my interpretation of the rules. I don't think that a 2 feat chain to get an animal companion at level-4 is overpowered or would lead to any big problems for home games. Actually, there should probably be a feat specifically for gaining an animal companion at level-3. I think there might be one in one of the newer books...not sure of the source and the prereqs though...
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'll go ahead and hit FAQ just to get a definitive answer. My argument goes like this:
Wildblooded bloodlines are normal bloodlines which have been altered due to an archetype. If you do not possess the archetype, then abilities of the wildblooded versions of the sorcerer bloodlines are not available to you via Eldritch Heritage. The wildblooded bloodlines are not independent bloodlines on thier own, but archetype-altered modifications to the prexisting sorcerer bloodlines.
The thing the wildblooded archetype does is allow you access to the altered bloodlines; if you remove that (by allowing access to anyone) then the archetype does nothing.
The Sage bloodline does not exist on its own; it is only accessible by a wildblooded sorcerer who select Arcane as their bloodline. The archetype changes the Arcane bloodline into Sage.
For the "wildblooded bloodlines are still bloodlines, the word is right there!" crowd, my condolences if you are ever marooned on a traffic island. Adjectives are important and often change the meanings of the words they are attached to.
I think that the wild bloodlines have been badly handed- they should have been treated as subdomains or variant arcane schools. I like very much how the variant bloodlines have been treated in Faerie Passions, for example
I see them as a Subdomain is to a Domain.
That would have been a better way of presenting it.
But as written, they are alterations to bloodlines rather than their own bloodline, so if you're wildblooded: linnorm, you still qualify for dragon disciple. Because it's not its own bloodline.
In my games players are fully allowed to make their own bloodline(subject to approval like everything else). And they can take wildblooded powers instead.
Setting aside the debate over archetypes vs bloodlines for a moment, Eldritch Heritage only grants you the 1st level bloodline power, not the bloodline arcana. Animal Companion is a bloodline power which also "counts as your bloodline arcana", so I'm not sure if it would work with Eldritch Heritage even if Wildblooded bloodlines are available via the feat (which seems debatable at best). Basically, you can't give up a bloodline arcana to get Animal Companion when you don't have a bloodline arcana to give up.
That's just my interpretation of the rules. I don't think that a 2 feat chain to get an animal companion at level-4 is overpowered or would lead to any big problems for home games. Actually, there should probably be a feat specifically for gaining an animal companion at level-3. I think there might be one in one of the newer books...not sure of the source and the prereqs though...
Yeppers, that is a separate issue with the fey bloodline. I am actually in agreement with you, there.
|
|
I see them as a Subdomain is to a Domain.That would have been a better way of presenting it.
But as written, they are alterations to bloodlines rather than their own bloodline, so if you're wildblooded: linnorm, you still qualify for dragon disciple. Because it's not its own bloodline.
In my games players are fully allowed to make their own bloodline(subject to approval like everything else). And they can take wildblooded powers instead.
I agree. It would have been better, and more consistent, for Wildblooded to be treated like Subdomains. But that isn't what the designers did, and there is already one example where it has been ruled that a wild bloodline cannot be used like a regular bloodline (Crossblooded and the FAQ I linked earlier).
The answer to why Sorcerer abilities that benefit bloodline powers continue to benefit Wildblooded abilities would seem to be because the sorcerer apparently possesses the base bloodline, and Wildblooded has only modified it, not changed what it is. That would also seem to need an FAQ, though, because it's unclear to me whether, RAW, someone with the Linnorm Wildblooded archetype does still qualify for Dragon Disciple. I think the answer is yes, but then Dragon Disciple is very specific about needing to have the Draconic bloodline. So the answer to what, exactly, a Wildblooded bloodline is, and whether someone with a Wildblooded bloodline is considered to have the base bloodline becomes even more important.