I'll give you that the not an action versus free action is somewhat ambiguous, as the PRD contradicts itself
Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action;
Maybe I am missing something in this debate, but doesn't this answer the question? "When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action" Free actions can only be done on your turn.
I also don't see any ambiguity or contradiction here. The first quoted part says nocking an arrow is a non action. Nocking an arrow has nothing to do with drawing it from the quiver which is a free action.
To me, the order of operations for firing a bow are mainly 3 parts
1. As a free action, draw an arrow from the quiver
2. As a non-action nock said arrow
3. Fire said arrow at a target.
Please point me to the RAW that says drawing an arrow is anything other than a free action so I can be on the same page as you all.
When you go from firing with two-hands with a longbow to taking your shooting hand off of the bow, you are not re-gripping. Your supporting hand remains on the bow always in the same position.
So, I can't point you to a FAQ because with bows there is no "changing hands"
Look at this fast archery video You can see that her support of the bow in the off hand never changes. However, the shooting hand is only needed to fire and grabbed the arrow. There is no re-gripping or changing of grips
Okay, since we're still trying to use real world examples: It's already been stated that you can't Crane Wing with a greatsword right? So I ask again: Do you really believe someone can knock an arrow faster than someone else can put another hand on something they're already holding? They can't. I promise you they can't. So you have to forget about real world examples. It will not make your case.
The other problem is with the way you are evisioning combat. You are picturing it the way it's played. Where everyone has an initutive and takes all their actions on their turn and when it's not their turn they just stand their doing nothing. That's not combat. Everything is happeneing at the same time. In order to to use Crane Wing, you have to be in a defensive martial stance. You have to be ready to block attacks. You don't know where that attack is going to come from, so your hand is up ready to block
DON'T APPLY COMMON SENSE TO THE GAME. THE RULES ARE NOT BASED ON COMMON SENSE.
You are the only one who appears to be arguing the opposing position. Everyone else appears to agree on the subject.
Crane Style: Crane style focuses on defense and agile counterattacks. Practitioners are known for graceful, one-legged stances and folding arm techniques that mimic a crane’s enormous wings.
After reading the above description of Crane Style I find it hard to envision anyone using this and being able to use a bow. Standing on one leg with folder arms (AKA the Karate Kid) does not look like you would be able to use a bow at all. Talk to anyone who has studied archery and they will tell you that your stance is very important.
So what you are suggesting is that the Archer starts combat in a one legged stance with folded arms. Then switches to a two legged stance with one arm (holding the bow) stretched out, and the other pulling arrows from his back. After he finishes firing his bow he then goes back to a one legged stance with folded arms. When someone attacks him with a melee weapon he blocks the weapon, and goes back to a two legged stance with one arm stretched out and the other pulling a single arrow from his back. After he fires the bow he then goes back to the one legged stance with folded arms until he needs to switch back again. He can freely shift stances as many times per round as he needs.
I just created an FAQ thread for the question
Do I have a "free hand" when using a bow?
I encourage you all to go there and hit the FAQ button.
- Torger
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Well you can use two-weapon fighting in your round, then make an AoO in your enemy's turn with either of those weapons at no penalty.
This implies that the combat actions you take in your turn do not have any effect on what you can do with an AoO unless otherwised specified (such as Power Attack)
Also, to reverse the problem, a Zen Archer with Reflexive Shot could use unarmed strike in his turn (holding his bow in one hand, punching with the other) and then use his bow to make an AoO in his enemy's round. Nowhere does it say he has to have an arrow nocked or anything like that. Reflexive Shot and Snap Shot allow a character to draw ammunition as part of an attack of opportunity.
Krodjin I believe that FAQ is referring to making a primary attack with a greatsword and an off-hand attack with armour spikes, it doesn't have anything to do with AoOs - there are no 'off-hands' in AoOsIf this were true then an archer couldn't make attacks with a spiked gauntlet during his enemy's turn without declaring that he is no longer wielding his bow at the end of every turn - I don't think there is anything to say this is the case?
@Durinor; there is this FAQ.
Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?
No.
Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.A bow is designated as a two handed weapon, so the above FAQ would apply. Now, if this were my game I'd allow it. Bt if I were building this character for PFS I would proceed cautiously and expect table variation.
@Durinor: You are correct... I was inferring something from that FAQ that may, in fact, not be there...
What I take away from the answer supplied in the FAQ is that if your "hands" are occupied as a result of doing something else (like wielding/using a Bow, or other weapon that requires 2 hands to use), it is unavailable to make any attacks.
"Hands" are an abstraction in the sense that your Armor Spikes can negate the availability of said "hand" even though you don't actually use your hand to hold, poke, or prod with said spikes. Hand represents a mechanic, and not necessarily an appendage with four fingers and a thumb.
Personally I think it would be great if this Crane Riposte/Reflexive Shot worked. But I suspect that if the FAQ is answered (in any of the FAQ threads that have appeared for this topic in the last 24 hours), it will not be the case - and the reason why (if one is given), will likely be that the "hand" is either available for Crane Riposte, or to make AoO with the Bow - not both.
That said, the Paizo squad seems wholly dedicated to making the Composite Longbow THE ranged weapon of choice. One that no other ranged weapon can even come close to rivaling. So who knows... I shall wait with bated breath for an answer, and in the mean time I will take the conservative approach and avoid this combo until it's resolved.
I am not envision any of the things that you are talking about. The only thing that I am envisioning is that a bow is held in one hand (Common Sense), it takes two hands to fire (common sense) and when you are not firing you have one hand free (common sense).
Greatsword held in one hand (Common Sense), it takes two hands to swing (common sense), and when you are not swinging, hold the sword with one hand (common sense).
From a "real world" or "common sense" argument they are exactly the same (actually, if you look at my response to the speed reply, you'll see the Greatsword is more plausible). The only difference between your bow example and the sword example, is the rules specifically say it's not allowed with a 2-handed weapon.
You envision that a bow takes two hands at all times like a greatsword and has to be re-gripped like a greatsword.
I'm not "envisioning" anything. I'm simply trying to apply the same rules equally across the board.
As to your speed question, did you see Quath's video. I believe the answer to your question is yes they can. The speed is quite impressive.
I'm sure it is, but they still have to travel twice as far. Hand to the quiver, hand back from the quiver with arrow. A sword: Hand to hilt and done. So assuming people with equal hand speed, the sword will always be faster because of the distance and the fact that the sword can move closer (being in a hand) where the quiver must remain stationary.
I think it just hit me PRD does not contradict:
PRD wrote:
Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.
PRD wrote:
Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action;
nocking an arrow is not the same as drawing an arrow. Nocking an arrow is putting an arrow on the string. The arrow is already in your hand and you nock the arrow. It still takes a free action to draw the arrow out of the quiver.
You're making an assumption that the Snap Shot line of feats doesn't grant the ability to draw an arrow as part of the feats powers. It's obvious that it is necessary for the feat to work, but it might be an ability granted solely by the possession of the feat.
This still does nothing about the question of wielding and hands, which I don't believe anyone will change their position short of an FAQ from the rules team. Personally I think it's about balancing the strength of the bow versus other attack methods. The bow is already the strongest form of damage dealing because you can full attack every round. Keeping it in balance with what other two handed weapons can do make sense (even if were talking about two-handed melee versus bows).