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The right or wrong of that belief is up for debate, but that devils are evil isn't.
Any more that taking someones body and turning it into a mindless meatpuppet slave could be anything but an evil act.
And you keep persistently ignoring that Animate Dead does not require a "someone." It can work just fine on a "something."
You can animate anything corporeal as a zombie and anything with a skeleton as a skeleton.
An ooze or giant spider or horse is not a person.
It was a living creature. In fact, given the game, it could even once again be a living creature. And you are descrating it's body to raise it as a mindless, dangerous, undead slave.
Which is evil.
Just like a devil or demon is evil.
Why?
Because some things in the game are evil and some are good, and the conflict between the two is half of the basis of conflict in the game, and conflict in the game IS the game.
I used bold AND caps. Did that work?
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You really know nothing about reality if you think something is evil because it is "banned" by the Bible.There's too many people like you.
Good thing this isn't a discussion of reality...or did you miss that part?
I suppose we should all give up on making you be a reasonable human being.
Have a nice day.
Which of us is arguing for raising undead being kosher?
You are the nickleback of this discussion.
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Oh. OH! I see what this is about now.
You want to play a racist serial killer who runs around executing people without trial or justification. But Evil PCs aren't allowed in most campaigns, you are trying to come up with some half-baked justification for how your racist serial-murderer who runs around killing people on sight, enslaving sentient beings with Dominate Person, and torturing sentient beings with boneshatter is somehow not evil. In the words of a very wise forum user:
I envision your game going like this.
The party walks into a room full of demons performing a ritual to raise undead, they want to charge forward to kill them when you shake your head.
"Racists...how do you know they are evil. What you just assume demon necromancers are evil...typical..."
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You really know nothing about reality if you think something is evil because it is "banned" by the Bible.There's too many people like you.
Good thing this isn't a discussion of reality...or did you miss that part?
I suppose we should all give up on making you be a reasonable human being.
Have a nice day.
Which of us is arguing for raising undead being kosher?
You are the nickleback of this discussion.
Uh, you literally said that you aren't discussing reality.
I bet you feel silly now that you didn't wait 5 minutes to see if I responded.
:)
And we aren't discussing reality. Orcs, devils and demons don't exist in reality and you can't raise people from the dead.
But in the made up world, those things do exist and can be done.
And they are evil.
Well... That escalated. So any ideas on how to use our objectively evil undead for good?
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Well... That escalated. So any ideas on how to use our objectively evil undead for good?
Lots of ways. I even posted an example from a campaign I was a part of where we had a necromancer who believed using dead bodies for good wasn't evil.
He was wrong, and he had to keep it hidden lest the town folk kill him, but his character believed it.
Well... That escalated. So any ideas on how to use our objectively evil undead for good?Lots of ways. I even posted an example from a campaign I was a part of where we had a necromancer who believed using dead bodies for good wasn't evil.
He was wrong, and he had to keep it hidden lest the town folk kill him, but his character believed it.
Not quiet the same thing. Really far from it actually. It could be used as a story of what not to do I guess?
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Not quiet the same thing. Really far from it actually. It could be used as a story of what not to do I guess?Well... That escalated. So any ideas on how to use our objectively evil undead for good?Lots of ways. I even posted an example from a campaign I was a part of where we had a necromancer who believed using dead bodies for good wasn't evil.
He was wrong, and he had to keep it hidden lest the town folk kill him, but his character believed it.
Loud the same thing then?
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Well... That escalated. So any ideas on how to use our objectively evil undead for good?Guard a town?
Sure, the townsfolk may find it distasteful, but if they're order to hide until they see something hostile, then the townsfolk will lighten up... Because, you know, they'll be alive.
Until the first townfolk is hostile toward one...
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Get over yourself.Loud the same thing then?Not quiet the same thing. Really far from it actually. It could be used as a story of what not to do I guess?Well... That escalated. So any ideas on how to use our objectively evil undead for good?Lots of ways. I even posted an example from a campaign I was a part of where we had a necromancer who believed using dead bodies for good wasn't evil.
He was wrong, and he had to keep it hidden lest the town folk kill him, but his character believed it.
Pot, kettle called...
Well... That escalated. So any ideas on how to use our objectively evil undead for good?Guard a town?
Sure, the townsfolk may find it distasteful, but if they're order to hide until they see something hostile, then the townsfolk will lighten up... Because, you know, they'll be alive.
Hmm... Eaten by ogres, or have a really ugly guard... Maybe we can have him wear a bag over his head? I'll draw a pretty face on the bag and no one will know the difference. OH! Or I can draw a map on his face. You won't even have to talk to him for directions.
Did you miss the respect for life part or just not bold it because it hurts your argument?
Respect for life last time I checked a corpse isn't alive. It also doesn't say anything about respecting a body after a person died.
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Did you miss the respect for life part or just not bold it because it hurts your argument?Respect for life last time I checked a corpse isn't alive. It also doesn't say anything about respecting a body after a person died.
Make sure your family is aware of that in preparing for your funeral.
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Desecrating living things is evil. I guess I'm going to hell for using mildew cleaner in the bathroom and eating chicken for lunch.
Unless his cleaner raises the mildew to be undead minions, then he will not be desecrating...
But if he were playing with you, he would need to make sure the mildew wasn't good mildew, lest he be racist...
Wouldn't holy word only kill the evil children? In that case, it makes sense that it is good.They could be neutral and the spell would still kill them.Yes, and if you did this without good cause you would be using a good spell to commit an evil act. Something your deity (or GM) may or may not be kosher with.
Just like if you summon skeletons to save children, you have committed an evil act that happened to have some good consequences.
Now maybe you have evil long term intentions (or good in the case of holy word) but either way the spell is inherently good or evil.
Because on Golarion, those things actually have not only fixed meanings, but entire pantheons of gods who adjudicate entire planes based on them.
In your explanation you didn't make the two scenarios symmetric.
In the first situation, you state, "you would be using a good spell to commit an evil act." So, it follows that in the second situation, you are using a evil spell to commit a good act. It seems to be the case that "inherent" evil within spells are independent of acting good or evil.
I think this is a significant part of the argument being made by the "Golarion moral skeptics" in this thread. Specifically that the connection between <i>acting</i> evil/good is separate from the "inherent evil/good" of spells. Which of courses actually refutes you claim that "Because on Golarion, those things actually have... fixed meanings."
These "things" in fact are in conflict, and do not have fixed meanings when considered in relation to the wider array of moral considerations on Golarion. "Evil" spells can do good things and "good" spells and do evil things. And because the goodness or evilness of an action is independent of the "inherent" system which gives certain spells the "good/evil" descriptor. What makes a Paladin good---that is, acting in such a Lawful Good way---isn't the same as the arbitrary system of assigning "good/evil" to spells.
Make sure your family is aware of that in preparing for your funeral.Did you miss the respect for life part or just not bold it because it hurts your argument?Respect for life last time I checked a corpse isn't alive. It also doesn't say anything about respecting a body after a person died.
I honestly don't see what has to do with me bringing up the quote you posted that has nothing to do with your argument.
Desecrating living things is evil. I guess I'm going to hell for using mildew cleaner in the bathroom and eating chicken for lunch.Unless his cleaner raises the mildew to be undead minions, then he will not be desecrating...
But if he were playing with you, he would need to make sure the mildew wasn't good mildew, lest he be racist...
Is raising something from dead the only thing you consider desecrating?
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We were responding to someone else asking if you used Holy Word to kill kindergardeners...so you know...
Most spells are neither good nor evil. That is determined by how they are used.
You literally can't use holy word against good. It isn't possible as part of the spell. That is why it is a "Good" spell.
You are descrating bodies to make undead slaves.
That is why it is an evil spell.
What you do with either changes nothing about the nature of the spell itself.
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Make sure your family is aware of that in preparing for your funeral.Did you miss the respect for life part or just not bold it because it hurts your argument?Respect for life last time I checked a corpse isn't alive. It also doesn't say anything about respecting a body after a person died.I honestly don't see what has to do with me bringing up the quote you posted that has nothing to do with your argument.
Is raising something from dead the only thing you consider desecrating?
Desecrating living things is evil. I guess I'm going to hell for using mildew cleaner in the bathroom and eating chicken for lunch.Unless his cleaner raises the mildew to be undead minions, then he will not be desecrating...
But if he were playing with you, he would need to make sure the mildew wasn't good mildew, lest he be racist...
You can desecrate in many ways.
One of them is raising them from the dead to be slaves.
Or do you consider cleaning/killing mildew desecration? If so, you may want to look up the word.
Also, if a corpse need not be respected, I suggest a buffet at your funeral. Longpork is quite delicious, I'm told.
Make sure your family is aware of that in preparing for your funeral.Did you miss the respect for life part or just not bold it because it hurts your argument?Respect for life last time I checked a corpse isn't alive. It also doesn't say anything about respecting a body after a person died.I honestly don't see what has to do with me bringing up the quote you posted that has nothing to do with your argument.
Is raising something from dead the only thing you consider desecrating?
Desecrating living things is evil. I guess I'm going to hell for using mildew cleaner in the bathroom and eating chicken for lunch.Unless his cleaner raises the mildew to be undead minions, then he will not be desecrating...
But if he were playing with you, he would need to make sure the mildew wasn't good mildew, lest he be racist...
You can desecrate in many ways.
One of them is raising them from the dead to be slaves.
Or do you consider cleaning/killing mildew desecration? If so, you may want to look up the word.
Also, if a corpse need not be respected, I suggest a buffet at your funeral. Longpork is quite delicious, I'm told.
If that's where your mind goes I'll make sure you are not allowed at my funeral or have or anywhere near me tbh.
I was only asking because that seemed like it was was the main/only point of your argument. So you would say a person hacking up a defeated enemy's corpse would be desecration and evil correct?
We were responding to someone else asking if you used Holy Word to kill kindergardeners...so you know...
Most spells are neither good nor evil. That is determined by how they are used.
You literally can't use holy word against good. It isn't possible as part of the spell. That is why it is a "Good" spell.
You are descrating bodies to make undead slaves.
That is why it is an evil spell.
What you do with either changes nothing about the nature of the spell itself.
But see, once again, you are appealing to something outside the spell descriptor to explain why using spells are good or evil, which is independent of the descriptors themselves.
But you can use holy word against innocent neutral people (I brought this up earlier), which is arguably evil in some cases (for example, a bunch of newborns in a nursery).
As some people have already pointed out, you can animate animals if the issue is desecrating the dead. Further, as others have pointed out that dominate person isn't an "evil" spell, even though it makes another sentient being a slave.
So it's failed to hold that these spells based on their spell descriptor always do good or evil.
So, (once again) the "inherent good/evil nature" of these spells are independent of whether they're used for good or evil. Which of courses actually refutes the claim that "On Golarion, those things actually have fixed meanings."
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I have to wonder how the lack of respect for the dead would affect a society.
I remember reading a, I think it was Larry Niven, short story. The setting was about a hundred years in the future. Science had advanced to the point where tissue rejection was overcome.
You could be killed for certain crimes, and if you were a criminal, you had no rights, not even to your own body parts. So criminals were simply killed and reprocessed for body parts.
The story is about a guy who accidently breaks out of prison while awaiting trial for a dozen felonies. He ends up unable to escape, but accidentaly makes it in to the organ storage room, and in a fit of rage, he smashes all the containers, destroying about 300 corpses worth of organs.
He's recaptured, and the DA says he's not even going to bother charging him with the escape and destruction of private property, because it would delay his current trial, and he isn't letting a monster like this guy get back on streets where he's a menace to society. So he just sends the guy to his appointed court date.
The judge looks the 2 dozen felony charges, and tells the DA he's tossing the case, because if the DA didn't press charges against the guy the first time he ran a red-light, and therefore the other 11 times he was operating without the required legal warning for running the first red-light, so he couldn't be charged with felony traffic violation. The judge sentanced the guy to 3 weeks for running the first red-light, with credit for time served, which was 6 months.
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You are saying it is just a corpse, so what is wrong with raising it into an undead meatpuppet slave?
What is wrong with making your grandmother into a delicious stew?
As to hacking up, am I doing it for purpose or power? Am I doing to make sure they can't be brought back to life to savage the townspeople I am sword to protect? That isn't desecration, that is protecting against the greater evil.
Now if I'm doing it to make an undead slave minion whom I command, or just because I think it's fun...
Same logic you apply to killing you apply to what you do with the body. If you are killing something to save people from it, that is cool. If you have to perform a ritual to save people, cool.
If you are doing it so you can get a slave buddy or to make a cool vest or a delicious soup you really don't need to survive...evil.
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We were responding to someone else asking if you used Holy Word to kill kindergardeners...so you know...
Most spells are neither good nor evil. That is determined by how they are used.
You literally can't use holy word against good. It isn't possible as part of the spell. That is why it is a "Good" spell.
You are descrating bodies to make undead slaves.
That is why it is an evil spell.
What you do with either changes nothing about the nature of the spell itself.
How blatantly ignorant.
Do you honestly believe that killing neutral children with holy word is still a good act?
Depends on the children and the will of the god granting the spell. Most animals are neutral, but if they are going to eat good and innocent people...
You are saying it is just a corpse, so what is wrong with raising it into an undead meatpuppet slave?
What is wrong with making your grandmother into a delicious stew?
As to hacking up, am I doing it for purpose or power? Am I doing to make sure they can't be brought back to life to savage the townspeople I am sword to protect? That isn't desecration, that is protecting against the greater evil.
Now if I'm doing it to make an undead slave minion whom I command, or just because I think it's fun...
Same logic you apply to killing you apply to what you do with the body. If you are killing something to save people from it, that is cool. If you have to perform a ritual to save people, cool.
If you are doing it so you can get a slave buddy or to make a cool vest or a delicious soup you really don't need to survive...evil.
The person did a lot of nasty things to you or the people you love and you just think that them just dying isn't enough so you take frustration out on the corpse for example.
As for the second part I just asking do you consider making items out of Bone, Dragonhide, Dragonskin, etc. evil?
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But see, once again, you are appealing to something outside the spell descriptor to explain why using spells are good or evil, which is independent of the descriptors themselves.
But you can use holy word against innocent neutral people (I brought this up earlier), which is arguably evil in some cases (for example, a bunch of newborns in a nursery).
As some people have already pointed out, you can animate animals if the issue is desecrating the dead. Further, as others have pointed out that dominate person isn't an "evil" spell, even though it makes another sentient being a slave.
So it's failed to hold that these spells based on their spell descriptor always do good or evil.
So, (once again) the "inherent good/evil nature" of these spells are independent of whether they're used for good or evil. Which of courses actually refutes the claim that "On Golarion, those things actually have fixed meanings."
Only for spells that have no descriptor do you need to look outside of the spell descriptor to decide if using it is good or evil.
For spells that are marked good or evil, you are only really judging degrees of how good or how evil the use was.
"An" issue is descrating the dead. And last I checked...animals are still dead.
Raising a dead creature to serve as your undead slave is evil in the same way stabbing a puppy because you want to hear it scream is evil.
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The person did a lot of nasty things to you or the people you love and you just think that them just dying isn't enough so you take frustration out on the corpse for example.As for the second part I just asking do you consider making items out of Bone, Dragonhide, Dragonskin, etc. evil?
Depends.
Are you creating an item that exudes evil and has an Evil aura and requires your calling on Evil to impart it's power to it?
If you are, then yes, making things out of bone, dragonhide, or dragonskin is evil.
Are you just making dice out of knuckle joints (how they came to be called knucklebones)? Are you making a vest out of dragon hide? Are you making a wig out of human hair?
If you are, it's pretty gross in some situations, but it's not Evil in and of itself. Because you are not calling on the powers of evil to do it. If you are, then yes it is.
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You are saying it is just a corpse, so what is wrong with raising it into an undead meatpuppet slave?
What is wrong with making your grandmother into a delicious stew?
As to hacking up, am I doing it for purpose or power? Am I doing to make sure they can't be brought back to life to savage the townspeople I am sword to protect? That isn't desecration, that is protecting against the greater evil.
Now if I'm doing it to make an undead slave minion whom I command, or just because I think it's fun...
Same logic you apply to killing you apply to what you do with the body. If you are killing something to save people from it, that is cool. If you have to perform a ritual to save people, cool.
If you are doing it so you can get a slave buddy or to make a cool vest or a delicious soup you really don't need to survive...evil.
The person did a lot of nasty things to you or the people you love and you just think that them just dying isn't enough so you take frustration out on the corpse for example.
As for the second part I just asking do you consider making items out of Bone, Dragonhide, Dragonskin, etc. evil?
And if I defile the corpse, I am doing something evil.
Is is less evil than just doing it for fun? I would say yes.
But it is still evil.
As for the second part, with regards to crafting items, I don't believe I am calling on evil forces to reanimate the corpse into an undead servant in those instances, am I?
So...not really the same thing.
Depends.
The person did a lot of nasty things to you or the people you love and you just think that them just dying isn't enough so you take frustration out on the corpse for example.As for the second part I just asking do you consider making items out of Bone, Dragonhide, Dragonskin, etc. evil?
I agree that it depends, I was just asking to get more understanding on what he is saying about killing something to make a vest being evil I was wondering if he thought that killing a dragon to make a suit of armor or a vest might be evil.
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I agree that it depends, I was just asking to get more understanding on what he is saying about killing something to make a vest being evil I was wondering if he thought that killing a dragon to make a suit of armor or a vest might be evil.Depends.
The person did a lot of nasty things to you or the people you love and you just think that them just dying isn't enough so you take frustration out on the corpse for example.As for the second part I just asking do you consider making items out of Bone, Dragonhide, Dragonskin, etc. evil?
Because other people imply I said things doesn't mean that I said them. And if you think me making your Grandmother into a nice vest is the same as wearing leather...well I guess you can join PETA...
It is very simple. You are calling on evil forces to defile a corpse by animating it and making it your slave.
Evil.
Just like if you summon something evil to fight for you, regardless of what it is fighting, it is evil, you summoned it, that is evil.
What does that mean? It means people who hate evil who see you doing it will probably not take you out to dinner and may stab you in the face, depending on circumstances.
Which makes sense. You did something evil.
Only for spells that have no descriptor do you need to look outside of the spell descriptor to decide if using it is good or evil.
For spells that are marked good or evil, you are only really judging degrees of how good or how evil the use was.
"An" issue is descrating the dead. And last I checked...animals are still dead.
Raising a dead creature to serve as your undead slave is evil in the same way stabbing a puppy because you want to hear it scream is evil.
The logic in your last sentence just doesn't follow. It sounds like nonsense in an attempt to deflect the question. How is raising a zombie wolf (to protect your flock of sheep, for example) "evil in the same way stabbing a puppy because you want to hear it scream." Because, to me they seem like two completely different things.
But I think that the contradictions within your argument come from (in part) the fact that you're arguing all the positions for an absolute morality, but you're failing to hold to any one position long enough to construct a coherent argument. You seem to be arguing a consequentialist morality, but the usage of "good/evil" spell descriptors doesn't jive with consequentialist morals.
Raising a cow as an undead zombie cow is evil because it's desecrating the dead, so... is eating a hamburger on Golarion evil?
Is killing a bunch of newborns with Holy Word "good" to a certain degree, but killing them with fireball evil?
As much as you're trying to avoid it, the problem is that "inherent good/evil" isn't compatible with a system (like the one on Golarion) that judges acts as good or evil.
Do you honestly believe that killing neutral children with holy word is still a good act?Depends on the children and the will of the god granting the spell.
I feel like we've stepped over a line when we say killing children is a good thing.
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The same way summoning a devil to watch your fields is evil. You called on the forces of evil to aide you.
That. Is. Evil.
Inherent good and evil is only compatible with a system not based in reality. It literally only exists because the world was created as having good and evil, in a literal, testable way.
If you call on a devil to cook your hamburger, you have called on evil for cooking purposes, and yes, that is evil.
Because in the game, there are clear sides and clear lines.
Because it isn't the real world, were burgers can never truly be good or evil. Only tasty or foul.
Make sure your family is aware of that in preparing for your funeral.Did you miss the respect for life part or just not bold it because it hurts your argument?Respect for life last time I checked a corpse isn't alive. It also doesn't say anything about respecting a body after a person died.
That's a cultural thing. I'm pretty sure if I was from *insert obscure culture here*, I wouldn't give a damned, and neither would my family.
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That's a cultural thing. I'm pretty sure if I was from *insert obscure culture here*, I wouldn't give a damned, and neither would my family.Make sure your family is aware of that in preparing for your funeral.Did you miss the respect for life part or just not bold it because it hurts your argument?Respect for life last time I checked a corpse isn't alive. It also doesn't say anything about respecting a body after a person died.
If only they defined what was considered good and evil in the culture of the setting.
Or if they really wanted to get specific, set up entire planes of existence that act as paragons to demonstrate what is considered good and evil.
If only...
I agree that it depends, I was just asking to get more understanding on what he is saying about killing something to make a vest being evil I was wondering if he thought that killing a dragon to make a suit of armor or a vest might be evil.Depends.
The person did a lot of nasty things to you or the people you love and you just think that them just dying isn't enough so you take frustration out on the corpse for example.As for the second part I just asking do you consider making items out of Bone, Dragonhide, Dragonskin, etc. evil?
Because other people imply I said things doesn't mean that I said them. And if you think me making your Grandmother into a nice vest is the same as wearing leather...well I guess you can join PETA...
It is very simple. You are calling on evil forces to defile a corpse by animating it and making it your slave.
Evil.
Just like if you summon something evil to fight for you, regardless of what it is fighting, it is evil, you summoned it, that is evil.
What does that mean? It means people who hate evil who see you doing it will probably not take you out to dinner and may stab you in the face, depending on circumstances.
Which makes sense. You did something evil.
Your words were "If you are doing it so you can get a slave buddy or to make a cool vest" I was just asking if you think going out to kill something like a troll, ogre, or dragon and then using it's bones and/or skin is evil.
You seem to be assuming things that I have never said or implied. I've just stated something that I believe you were incorrect when you quoted it the respect for life part in the description of the good alignment, or have been asking you to clarify your position, nothing more.
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I think it is pretty sketchy and would be frowned on by most civilized cultures and if it included necromantic ritual that took power from the dead body into yourself that would be evil.
But like the analogy earlier about drinking blood, there is doing it for custom and doing it for magical power. One is creepy and one is evil.
Calling on evil forces is a large part of what makes it evil.