This is an attempt to explain how the targeting works visually rather than in words. Thought it might be easier.
linky
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This is an attempt to explain how the targeting works visually rather than in words. Thought it might be easier.
linkyThat targeting would make the spell even more useless. If you take the range as the limit of the spell including the spread (which I don't think it right in this case), you limit the spell so severely that you'll almost always hit allies and the spell has very little utility.
So I have to give your theory a -1.
I believe only the placement has to be within close range, and then the spread defines the targets from there.
It is not theory, it is rules:
Range
A spell's range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the range entry of the spell description. A spell's range is the maximum distance from you that the spell's effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell's point of origin. If any portion of the spell's area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted. Standard ranges include the following.
A often forgotten rule, but a rule nonetheless
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DGL: i believe the RAW is clear in that you get to choose the targets. However, im not sure that you can willingly pick less targets than your level.
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There is no assumption. That's how it works. You set the point of origin and the effect spreads from there. Each creature within the spread area (up to the caster's level; if there are more, then only those closest to the point of origin are affected) must make a Fortitude save or take 10/caster level damage. The maximum range for both origin and effect is 75 feet from the caster (assuming a 20th level caster).
While it may be possible to come up with other interpretations for how the spell works, it quickly becomes readily apparent that the interpretations are either strained ("the description says 'target' so you must see every person that you are going to affect"), or inferior and illogical ("the spell only does 170-200 hp damage and you start subtracting from this pool with the first creature affected and it either uses up the entire pool or the creature dies and the remaining points move on to the next creature affected").
These two positions are obviously absurd interpretations and, therefore, can be rejected as incorrect interpretations.
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It's not worded like fireball because it doesn't affect ALL of the creatures in the effect area, it only affects up to the caster level number of creatures.
If the intent was to have the spread emenate from the caster, there would be no range. It is pretty safe to say that, given the range as well as the inference of the origin point in the description, the caster may set the origin point as somewhere other than himself. If you need to justify it, imagine it as the caster "throwing" his voice, or whatever.
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There is no assumption. That's how it works. You set the point of origin and the effect spreads from there. Each creature within the spread area (up to the caster's level; if there are more, then only those closest to the point of origin are affected) must make a Fortitude save or take 10/caster level damage. The maximum range for both origin and effect is 75 feet from the caster (assuming a 20th level caster).
While it may be possible to come up with other interpretations for how the spell works, it quickly becomes readily apparent that the interpretations are either strained ("the description says 'target' so you must see every person that you are going to affect"), or inferior and illogical ("the spell only does 170-200 hp damage and you start subtracting from this pool with the first creature affected and it either uses up the entire pool or the creature dies and the remaining points move on to the next creature affected").
These two positions are obviously absurd interpretations and, therefore, can be rejected as incorrect interpretations.
You reject the target line in any spell if that don't suit you?
RAI your interpretation seem logic and in line with the 3.5 version of the spell, but Area was changed into Target when the spell was ported over to Pathfinder. Way you assume that was made if it has no effect on how the spell work?
It's not worded like fireball because it doesn't affect ALL of the creatures in the effect area, it only affects up to the caster level number of creatures.
Just a note, Confusion targets all legitimate targets in the area without a specified upper limit. Of course, it's still limited by LoS unlike Fireball.
Otherwise agreed, just thought it worth pointing out.
Second, and maybe problem solving for DGL, is this in the description of Wail: "The spell affects up to one creature per caster level ... " Bolded text by me.Yeah, that takes care of that question. Now we just need to know if you can select targets or if its an AoE.
We can select targets. We know that, it's in the spell target rules.
However, I'm not sure that quote solves it really. Because we have two statements on who it potentially affects:
In the target line, it says it targets "one creature per caster level".
In the description, it says it affects "up to one creature per caster level".
Since it's a Save Negates spell, it's possible that it says "affects up to" because some creatures may make their saves - you might have to target 17 creatures (or however many are valid targets), and up to that number can potentially fail their saves.
It's a very gray area and the argument can go in either direction.
But the spell is targeted, that is not gray, it says it in black on white.
I also persist that the origin of WotB is always the caster, spreading 40' in all directions. The Effect text box indicates this.
WotB explicitly has a range that is different from the maximum distance between targets. It also doesn't even have an Effect line, it has a Target line (and how would it be an Effect spell to begin with? :S).
This also feels like grasping for illuisonary straws.There is no assumption. That's how it works. You set the point of origin and the effect spreads from there. Each creature within the spread area (up to the caster's level; if there are more, then only those closest to the point of origin are affected) must make a Fortitude save or take 10/caster level damage. The maximum range for both origin and effect is 75 feet from the caster (assuming a 20th level caster).
That's not how it works. It's not an area spell, it's a target spell. See this picture again.
For spells with an Area line, you set the point of origin and it affects creatures.
For spells with a Target line, you choose targets, sometimes restricted by distance or location in regards to each other.
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There is no assumption. That's how it works. You set the point of origin and the effect spreads from there. Each creature within the spread area (up to the caster's level; if there are more, then only those closest to the point of origin are affected) must make a Fortitude save or take 10/caster level damage. The maximum range for both origin and effect is 75 feet from the caster (assuming a 20th level caster).
While it may be possible to come up with other interpretations for how the spell works, it quickly becomes readily apparent that the interpretations are either strained ("the description says 'target' so you must see every person that you are going to affect"), or inferior and illogical ("the spell only does 170-200 hp damage and you start subtracting from this pool with the first creature affected and it either uses up the entire pool or the creature dies and the remaining points move on to the next creature affected").
These two positions are obviously absurd interpretations and, therefore, can be rejected as incorrect interpretations.
You reject the target line in any spell if that don't suit you?
RAI your interpretation seem logic and in line with the 3.5 version of the spell, but Area was changed into Target when the spell was ported over to Pathfinder. Way you assume that was made if it has no effect on how the spell work?
I'm not exactly sure which part of my post you are objecting to. Regardless, the only thing that changed between 3.5 & PF in that line was changing the word "area" to "target". So are you inferring that every targeted creature must be visible? For a spread spell that can go around corners, that seems to be a strained interpretation.
The spell targets living creatures, yes. But you don't have to see them to affect them.
It is not a spread spell. Its a target spell. Are ypu saying that we should ignore the changes since 3.5? That because only one veryrelevant designator was changed we should pretend it works like in 3.5?
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There is no assumption. That's how it works. You set the point of origin and the effect spreads from there. Each creature within the spread area (up to the caster's level; if there are more, then only those closest to the point of origin are affected) must make a Fortitude save or take 10/caster level damage. The maximum range for both origin and effect is 75 feet from the caster (assuming a 20th level caster).
While it may be possible to come up with other interpretations for how the spell works, it quickly becomes readily apparent that the interpretations are either strained ("the description says 'target' so you must see every person that you are going to affect"), or inferior and illogical ("the spell only does 170-200 hp damage and you start subtracting from this pool with the first creature affected and it either uses up the entire pool or the creature dies and the remaining points move on to the next creature affected").
These two positions are obviously absurd interpretations and, therefore, can be rejected as incorrect interpretations.
You reject the target line in any spell if that don't suit you?
RAI your interpretation seem logic and in line with the 3.5 version of the spell, but Area was changed into Target when the spell was ported over to Pathfinder. Way you assume that was made if it has no effect on how the spell work?
I'm not exactly sure which part of my post you are objecting to. Regardless, the only thing that changed between 3.5 & PF in that line was changing the word "area" to "target". So are you inferring that every targeted creature must be visible? For a spread spell that can go around corners, that seems to be a strained interpretation.
The spell targets living creatures, yes. But you don't have to see them to affect them.
I see you haven't read the whole tread, so let's repeat this citation again:
Aiming a Spell
You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell's type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
So you are disregarding a clear rules about what is the meaning of Targets and how choosing your targets work.
So what rule matter? Target or spread?
The Area part of the spell was changed to Target. You are assuming that it was an error? It is possible, but that change was made on purpose as the text was changed from the 3.5 version.
And yes, I am "inferring that every targeted creature must be visible?" as that is what the rules say. To target a creature you must be able to see it.
Specific only overrides general where it is actually specific, not where it's vague.
Saying "you emit" is not nearly specific enough to override the rules on range - especially when in that case there would be _no point whatsoever_ in having that range at all.
Spells that are centered on you say they are.
As well as running into the issue of it being a Spread. Regardless of where the word 'Spread' occurs in the description (target line or Area of Effect line) the word 'Spread' implies that you do not need to see 'something about the effect'. In this case I believe it is referring to the targets but ...
But the word target implies that you have to. So then you have to check which word is in a placement of more severe importance.
If you allow targeting within the spread without LoS you are violating the targeting rules.
If you do not allow it, you are not violating any rules.
As for the range issue the obvious question is why include range line with a range greater than personal if "you emit" means the range is in essence always 0.
Excactly. And the rules are 100% clear on this, anything else is grasping for illusionary straws, and not even bigby's grasper can get those.
Saying "you emit" in the description is overriding the explicit range with a "0ft" range is... I don't have words for how weak of an interpretation that is.
Namely I think it should be an AoE spread with range personal (that doesn't effect the caster).
Agreed. I think that WotB SHOULD be an area spell centered on you, but as written, it's a targeted spell that thus doesn't really even have a center.
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... If you allow targeting within the spread without LoS you are violating the targeting rules.
If you do not allow it, you are not violating any rules.
...Explain then why the word Spread is involved. If you have to have LOS to all the targets (or be able to touch them) why do you need anything further? Why mention Spread? Or hypothetically Burst or Emanation? What would adding any of those words to the target line do? What is any, much less spread specifically, Effect line term doing there?
EDIT: I ask because presumably someone while designing/translating the spell for PF meant it to mean something. The debate (and lack of clarity) on what that something is is exactly the problem here.
It is because the 3.5 word Area was replaced in Pathfinder with the word Target without changing other section of the spell text (the only other change was replacing "You emit a terrible scream that kill creatures that hear it (except for yourself)." with "When you cast this spell, you emit a terrible, soul-chilling scream that possibly kills creatures that hear it (except for yourself). The spell affects up to one creature per caster level, inflicting 10 points of damage per caster level."
Even in the 3.5 version the spell had a range of close and was affecting the creatures closest to the point of origin first.
What made the difference was changing Area to Target.
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About spread and targeting, there are situations in which a spread and targeting can work together.
Cast the spell in a room with 3 boots, from your position you can see the area within all three boots but people in one of the boots can't see people in the other boots.
You cast WoB so taht the point of origin is in the central boot. If it was a burst you couldn't target the creatures in the other 2 boots as they have total cover from the point of origin. As it is a spread that can turn corners it can affect the people in the other boos as long as they are visible from your positions and the distance (corner included) is less than 40' from the point of origin.
Explain then why the word Spread is involved.... If you allow targeting within the spread without LoS you are violating the targeting rules.
If you do not allow it, you are not violating any rules.
...
Because it is an additional limiter to whom can be targeted (compare the target line on magic missile).
If the target spell is interpreted as a target spell (in other words, the way it is written) then the spread limits who you can target. In the picture I linked before, it means you couldn't target the enemies in the picture while still targeting someone behind you. The difference between a spread and burst here is so minor they might as well have done a toss-up, but if the wall in the picture was a glass wall or wall of force or for some other reason blocked LoE but not LoS, it could hit them as an emanation but not as a spread.
If the target spell is instead assumed to be incorrectly written despite it being a clear change since 3.5, and that it's actually an area (spread) spell, then the word Target designator is completely meaningless.
So there are two ways to read the spell. Either that it is correctly written and works like I've specified, or that they accidentally changed the spell from the previous write-up and the wording is incorrect. Of course we can assume that it is incorrectly written without having any supporting evidence for that (since the spell works fine with the current wording), but we can do so for about any rule, and then the rules discussion becomes pretty meaningless.
If you have to have LOS to all the targets (or be able to touch them) why do you need anything further? Why mention Spread? Or hypothetically Burst or Emanation? What would adding any of those words to the target line do? What is any, much less spread specifically, Effect line term doing there?
Because it limits distance and relative position between them. I made a picture even! If you remove that part of the line the caster could target any enemies within reach regardless of them being walled of from each other or on the opposite side of each other. With a 65 ft range the caster could target enemies 130ft from each other. The inclusion of the "40 ft spread" limitation means the caster can't do that.
So, let's be clear, by inflating/deflating the numbers to show the difference.
Spell One:
Range one mile.
Target up to two creatures.
Spell Two:
Range one mile
Target up to two creatures within a 10ft spread.
These are extremely different spells in terms of usefulness how easily you can gain maximum efficiency. In WotB the difference is less, but it is still a working limiter.
If you can choose the targets, why does the target's distance from the origin matter? Clearly, you cannot choose more targets than the spell allows, even if they're in the area.
It might be a holdover, but it still serves a function. For example, say that there are three characters at differing range from the point of origin: A rogue, a wizard, and a fighter. Let's say the wizard has a contingency; "When I become the target of a spell, Reach Teleport".
If WotB affected everyone at the same time, everyone would have to make a save or die while teleporting away. But the way it's written, first the rogue is targeted, has to make a save or die, then the wizard has to make a save while teleporting away herself, the fighter, and the rogue if the rogue is alive. The fighter is out of reach and thus won't have to make a save.
And, depending on interpretations on how targeting and contingency works, this might also apply for contingencies of spells that block LoS, but since that's more debatable I thought it a bad example.
And there are of course other abilities that affect this, such as a Balor's death explosion; if it dies first and kills the WotB-caster, the spell might (depending on interpretation) end before anyone else is hit.
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I see you haven't read the whole tread, so let's repeat this citation again:Aiming a Spell
You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell's type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
So you are disregarding a clear rules about what is the meaning of Targets and how choosing your targets work.
So what rule matter? Target or spread?
The Area part of the spell was changed to Target. You are assuming that it was an error? It is possible, but that change was made on purpose as the text was changed from the 3.5 version.And yes, I am "inferring that every targeted creature must be visible?" as that is what the rules say. To target a creature you must be able to see it.
Except that you don't select one creature per level for targets, you select a point of origin and the effects spread from there (in which spread effects can go around corners), affecting the closest creatures to the point of origin first.
There can only be one point of origin. You don't select individual targets as points of origin, or even to affect individually targeted creatures like you do with magic missile or any of the mass spells.
Someone else brought up confusion. That spell says it targets all creatures in a 15-ft. radius burst. A 15-ft.-radius burst from where? From 50 different creatures? No, you select a point of origin, draw a 15-ft.-radius circle around that point of origin and all creatures within that circle are affected by the spell. Though, it is a burst so it does not go around corners.
Wail of the Banshee works in a similar manner except that it is a spread and so you affect creatures that are around corners. So, it affects one living creature/level in a 40-ft.-radius spread. A 40-ft.-radius spread from where? Do you just select a number of creatures up to the caster level? Where is the point of origin; from where is the 40-ft.-radius spread measured? No, you select a point of origin, draw a 40-ft.radius circle around that point of origin (while also taking into account the distance traveled for going around corners) and all creatures up to the one living creature/level limit are affected. Though, you don't get to choose which creatures will be affected, you work from the point of origin outward until the limit has been reached.
You have to be able to see where you are setting your point of origin, yes. But past that, living creatures that are out of sight but within range are affected.
HangarFlying, can you show any kind of rules support for that? Because what you're describing is an area spell WotB is explicitly NOT an area spell. It WAS an area spell, they changed it. Now it's a TARGET spell.
If it affected everyone within the spread, rather than targets chosen as a target spell, it would not be a target spell, it would be an area spell. Just like confusion, you need to target the creatures.
Honestly, we've shown time and again with rules references why it's not the way you claim it is, but your answer is just "no ur wrong" and a repeat of the same unfounded argument that you've shown no evidence whatsoever of. It's not meaningful in the least, it's just tiring.
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HangarFlying, can you show any kind of rules support for that? Because what you're describing is an area spell WotB is explicitly NOT an area spell. It WAS an area spell, they changed it. Now it's a TARGET spell.
If it affected everyone within the spread, rather than targets chosen as a target spell, it would not be a target spell, it would be an area spell. Just like confusion, you need to target the creatures.
Honestly, we've shown time and again with rules references why it's not the way you claim it is, but your answer is just "no ur wrong" and a repeat of the same unfounded argument that you've shown no evidence whatsoever of. It's not meaningful in the least, it's just tiring.
Ok, so if you just select the targets, how do you determine the "area" of the effect and from where is the radius of that area measured?
Uhm... I don't see the issue? Did you look at my picture? I don't see how that is hard at all?
You select targets that would fit in a 40ft spread. If you're unsure of if they do, just hold a 40ft spread where it would be most beneficial and see if they fit within.
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Uhm... I don't see the issue? Did you look at my picture? I don't see how that is hard at all?
You select targets that would fit in a 40ft spread. If you're unsure of if they do, just hold a 40ft spread where it would be most beneficial and see if they fit within.
Just to point it out:
a spread won't fill the whole circle if there are obstacles. The spell has to pay to circumvent them.Spread: Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can't see. Figure distance by actual distance traveled, taking into account turns the spell effect takes. When determining distance for spread effects, count around walls, not through them. As with movement, do not trace diagonals across corners. You must designate the point of origin for such an effect, but you need not have line of effect (see below) to all portions of the effect.
Yeah, agreed. I think it's to some extent a badly designed spell, since the difference in power level between a burst and spread on a spell like this is pretty marginal and it would be a lot simpler to calculate as a burst, but that's another matter ;D
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Uhm... I don't see the issue? Did you look at my picture? I don't see how that is hard at all?
You select targets that would fit in a 40ft spread. If you're unsure of if they do, just hold a 40ft spread where it would be most beneficial and see if they fit within.
Which means...there is a point of origin in there somewhere...usually the center of that 40-ft. spread. Whether you lay the template out first and then figure where the center is, or select the point of origin and then determine the extent of the spell effects, the end result is the same: you still have a point of origin that you designate and the effects spread from there.
Though, in reality, because the effect spreads, it's best to start from the center and then measure out, unless you're in an open area.
That point of origin must be within your line of sight. From that point of origin the spell effects spread out (and go around corners). The creatures that are closest to the point of origin are affected first.
EDIT: minor grammar
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Uhm... I don't see the issue? Did you look at my picture? I don't see how that is hard at all?
You select targets that would fit in a 40ft spread. If you're unsure of if they do, just hold a 40ft spread where it would be most beneficial and see if they fit within.
Just to point it out:
a spread won't fill the whole circle if there are obstacles. The spell has to pay to circumvent them.Spread: Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can't see. Figure distance by actual distance traveled, taking into account turns the spell effect takes. When determining distance for spread effects, count around walls, not through them. As with movement, do not trace diagonals across corners. You must designate the point of origin for such an effect, but you need not have line of effect (see below) to all portions of the effect.
If your assertion that all targets to be affected by the spell must be seen and designated by the caster, why is this point that you call out relevant? If the target is around a corner and can't be seen, measuring around a corner would be irrelevant.
Or...you don't have to see the targets, you designate a point of origin, and those targets which are in the spread are affected by the spell.
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Hangar, the reason Ilja is able to poke holes in your argument is because, as I continue to persist, you do not get to choose the origin of the spread. The caster is the origin. The targets are what the spell itself chooses, based on it's text. This is supported by the verbiage in how many creatures can be affected as opposed to how many opponents can be affected.
This is patently false. It has a range of 65-75 feet depending on your level. You may set yourself as the point of origin, but there is absolutely that indicates that you have to.
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Uhm... I don't see the issue? Did you look at my picture? I don't see how that is hard at all?
You select targets that would fit in a 40ft spread. If you're unsure of if they do, just hold a 40ft spread where it would be most beneficial and see if they fit within.
Just to point it out:
a spread won't fill the whole circle if there are obstacles. The spell has to pay to circumvent them.Spread: Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can't see. Figure distance by actual distance traveled, taking into account turns the spell effect takes. When determining distance for spread effects, count around walls, not through them. As with movement, do not trace diagonals across corners. You must designate the point of origin for such an effect, but you need not have line of effect (see below) to all portions of the effect.If your assertion that all targets to be affected by the spell must be seen and designated by the caster, why is this point that you call out relevant? If the target is around a corner and can't be seen, measuring around a corner would be irrelevant.
Or...you don't have to see the targets, you designate a point of origin, and those targets which are in the spread are affected by the spell.
I have already explained that with the aisle example, and other people has done that too too.
You can easily have people that has full cover from the point of origin of the spell but it fully visible from the position of the caster.
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Q: Are there some (not Wail but less confusing :p) spells that are targeted that also have a Point of Origin? Most that am I thinking of off the top of my head do not. Or is this another somewhat unique bit to Wail of the Banshee?
From the CRB:
Confusion - Targets all creatures in a 15-ft.-radius burst
Inflict light wounds (it is buried in the spell text)
Inflict Light Wounds, Mass
School necromancy; Level cleric 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will half; Spell Resistance yesNegative energy spreads out in all directions from the point of origin, dealing 1d8 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +25) to nearby living enemies.
Like other inflict spells, mass inflict light wounds cures undead in its area rather than damaging them. A cleric capable of spontaneously casting inflict spells can also spontaneously cast mass inflict spells.
Cloak of Chaos - Targets one creature/level in a 20-ft.-radius burst centered on you
Holy Aura - Targets one creature/level in a 20-ft.-radius burst centered on you
Shield of Law - Targets one creature/level in a 20-ft.-radius burst centered on you
Unholy Aura - Targets one creature/level in a 20-ft.-radius burst centered on you