Flurry of Maneuvers questions


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

The monk archetype Maneuver Master has a replacement for Flurry of Blows which is called Flurry of Maneuvers.

However exactly what it does is not at all clear - nearly everytime I play my Maneuver Master monk (actually multi-classed including a level of monk) at PFS tables I see extreme variation in how to interpret how this ability functions - especially in combination with other feats.

Quote:

Flurry of Maneuvers (Ex)

At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry.

At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks.

At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks.

This ability replaces flurry of blows.

I've seen the following variable interpretations:

1 - how I initially interpreted this and how I think it should be interpreted. The monk can make an additional combat maneuver (of nearly any maneuver - including Dirty Trick) and can do this as part of a full-attack action - so can still make their usual regular attacks however they make those attacks. So, if they also use Two-weapon fighting the monk can also attack with both weapons as part of the full attack or if the monk is high enough level the monk can make iterative attacks. If the monk happens to have natural attacks he can make those as well. If he chooses to make any additional combat maneuvers during this attack beyond the bonus maneuver he gets a -2 penalty and he only gets to use his monk level as his BAB for the bonus maneuver. These additional maneuvers as part of his regular attacks however have to be ones that could be substituted for a regular attack (i.e. a trip attempt for example) and if he uses any feats that penalize his attacks that penalty applies to his bonus maneuver as well - i.e. if he uses two-weapon fighting.

2 - how many other players and GMs have interpreted this - the monk can ONLY make maneuvers with this Flurry (which makes it kinda pointless as you rapidly run out of viable maneuvers to stack during a full attack action) and this gets complicated by the timing of many maneuvers as well (it takes a feat - quick dirty trick to make a dirty trick as part of an attack action usually)

The further bit that is confusing is just what happens at higher monk levels - with the extra bonus maneuvers - the penalties are a bit harder to understand - it is unclear if they apply to all maneuvers or just to the second or third bonus maneuvers (and any additional non-bonus maneuvers).

overall I love the functionality and the flavor of this archetype but think it needed some further refinement and editing for clarity of both functionality and intention.


Normally at first level u can do 2 combat maneuvers with flurry of blows but with this u can do 3 instead


Here's how it works:

Say, for the sake of example, you're a lvl 8 Maneuver Master Monk. You have +6 Bab, 2 iterative attacks (+6/+1), and two bonus maneuvers from Flurry of Maneuvers.

You can make melee attacks with your iteratives (this is still a full-attack, mind you) or you can replace those attacks with maneuvers you can do in place of a melee attack (trip, disarm, sunder). In addition, you get two bonus maneuvers regardless of whether they are Standard Action maneuvers or melee attack maneuvers. Just for taking this option for your full-attack, you take an automatic -2 to any maneuvers you make (both the bonus maneuvers and any melee maneuvers you substitute for normal attacks). This functions just like Two-Weapon Fighting in that you take the TWF penalty to attack right from the start, even if you kill the enemy with your first strike and never get to use the off-hand attack you paid the penalty for. Then, it says that you get a second bonus maneuver at lvl 8 and taking it adds an extra -3 to your base -2 penalty. So any maneuvers that happen before the second bonus maneuver take -2 and your second bonus maneuver along with any attack-replacement maneuvers after it take a net -5. Then, at level 15, you get a third bonus maneuver and it tacks on an additional -7 (net -12) to that and any subsequent attack-replacement maneuvers.

Now, there are some who argue that, once you get to lvl 8, the net -5 penalty applies to all maneuvers performed throughout the FoM, both of your bonus maneuvers and any attack-replacement maneuvers throughout the whole action. This progresses to a -12 net penalty to all maneuvers at any point in the FoM once you hit lvl 15. I, however, find this patently ludicrous for obvious reasons.

Furthermore, since this is an option for the Full-Attack action, any benefits that can also be applied to Full-Attack can also be applied to a Full-Attack modified by FoB. You can get an extra attack from Haste and you can use normal TWF rules as well as mix in natural attacks (which FoB expressly prohibited). In fact, FoM lacks not only the restriction against TWF and natural attacks, it also lacks the restriction on armor and shields, and the requirement to use monk weapons so you could even do a FoM in full-plate with a tower shield and a longsword if you wanted.

Keep in mind that you also get Maneuver Training as a vanilla Monk class ability:

PRD wrote:
Maneuver Training (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his Combat Maneuver Bonus. Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally.

So, after level 3, any maneuvers you make use Monk level in place of Monk Bab to calculate CMB, including, but not limited to, standard Attacks, normal full-attacks, Flurry of Maneuvers full-attacks, Attacks of opportunity, or at the end of a Charge. At levels 1 and 2, however, only the bonus maneuver would get full BAB and replacing your melee attacks with applicable maneuvers (trip, disarm, sunder) would be done at the 3/4 bab for melee attacks.


Kazaan - thanks - that's how I would interpret it as well but as I noted people including GMs I respect have told me they interpret it differently - since the character in question is a level 11 PFS character getting this right is increasingly pretty critical as his turns can be pretty complicated.

He is, however, only a level 1 maneuver master monk of the four winds (since the two archetypes stack and I didn't want him to have stunning fist due to a low WIS score) . He's also a level 6 Lore Warden and a level 3 rogue (and I have to level him up either another level of lore warden or another level of rogue). The effect given his full feat arrays is that his typical turn is:

- if full attack - flurry of manuevers - Dirty Trick (blind) followed by two weapon fighting for 4 attacks each with sneak attack damage (since blind if imposed allows him to sneak) followed by on future rounds either re-blinding or additional dirty tricks and occasionally trips. He trips if it appears he'll have trouble landing blows (or he stops two-weapon fighting for more reliable hits). Since he has Greater Dirty Trick his dirty tricks are imposed for quite a while and take a standard action to shake off - he figures in most combats it is a net win for a BBEG to spend a turn just shaking off an effect and not casting spells etc.

He's a lot of fun to play - just want to make sure I do everything correctly (he also has a pretty crazy number of feats from his fighter levels, rogue talents and monk levels and a lot of skill ranks from his 20 INT plus levels). Lots of fun - probably not the most fully optimized DPS character but a real asset to every party he joins - and nearly always useful (and he has a lot of additional tricks in non-combat situations)

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Flurry of Maneuvers questions All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.