Are you saying elves are just like gnomes, and have similar relations across the boards with other races?GM: "I NEED elves to be banned from the setting. The entire setting and campaign depends on elves being banned."
Players: "Couldn't you just go to everywhere you have the word elf and change it to gnome. Maybe tweak a thing here and there and have it work out reasonably well."
GM: "Did you hear me? I said I NEED it to be elves that are banned. This is not a matter of personal opinion. This is a fundamental truth of the universe."
Players: "Didn't you just choose to make the elves the race that was gone. I mean you could have chosen another race, right?"
GM: "Chose? Chose! This was divine inspiration! How dare thee suggest this was merely the choice of mortal. The clouds parted on that day and ..."
*Players quietly sneak out of the room, hoping not to be noticed*
What forest? All I see are trees.
Careful now...all this straw is going to create a fire hazard!
*grabs water bucket*
These are the things I need to be the way they are for this campaign.
Careful now...all this straw is going to create a fire hazard!
*grabs water bucket*
These are the things I need to be the way they are for this campaign.
And?
Relevance?
If you want to chose that campaign, and have me run it it comes like that. You can choose one of these others I mentioned, or one of you can gm yourself as well.
And there's the inflexibility.
Oh come on.
You have choices of campaigns to run. You are saying its not flexibility unless they get to define all of the elements of every campaign?
Unless every single aspect is open for debate, its inflexibility.
I didn't say it was bad. I said it was inflexibility. Do you deny that you will not budge on it?And there's the inflexibility.Oh come on.
Playing with words here. You can be flexible(generally) with specific solid points.
And there's the inflexibility.
And his inflexibility isn't preventing his group from choosing which of many possible campaigns they should run, so the problem is... ?
EDIT: ninja'd by TOZ
I provided an example of that upthread. For the player in question, it was 'I want to play the character represented by this miniature, which I have just purchased and will lovingly paint this weekend, or I won't play.'
I cannot imagine that this sort of thing is all that isolated.
OK, I stand corrected -- someone DID actually say that!
I'd call this one guy who's that attached to his doll to be just as bad as the DM who's obsessively attached to the "purity" of his imaginary setting.
They aren't dolls, they're figures! And while I may still show up with my own super-cool, lovingly painted figure, I haven't demanded that my character be identical it for (no kidding) decades. Look, I don't know what you want from me; Aenur from Games Workshop's Mordheim line looks badass. (Full disclosure, not my paint job.)
I am going to paint all my figures with +5 swords from now on, though, instead of dumb old metal ones; that's just good sense.
I'd consider that to be both good DMing and cooperating with the majority opinion.Not at all. Why are you trying to make me into a straw DM?
Am I a straw DM? Because, for a minute there, that sounded like something I would do -- lead the campaign so that it ends up in the direction the players really want. If you're so prickly you'd rather argue than accept a compliment, that's OK, too, I guess...
Everyone acts like you either want to play a race because of it's theme OR it's stats. In the words of Dr. Hartman "Can't it be both?"
I once played a female elf looking for her half-elven daughter. Her human lover left her tribe of nomadic elves and took their young daughter with her. Her entire motivation for adventure was finding her daughter (and funneling the wealth she acquired into hiring various investigators and contacts and bribing authorities to help find her missing child).
When she finally tracked them down, her daughter was relatively a bit older, but her lover had aged poorly. She was half bent on killing him for kidnapping their child and leaving. She couldn't bring herself to do it though. Turns out he took her to meet his family, and to live among the humans for a while. But why? Because he knew that she would outlive him in a very real way, and that he couldn't have convinced the PC to take a hiatus from her clan's nomadic lifestyle for a time to travel outside of their desert homeland.
Said character was a PF-Beta Fighter played during the playtests (should have been a Ranger, really, because Fighter wasn't helping anything for the concept). The only thing that was really memorable about the character (even being the one playing her) was just the subplot.
A subplot that I would have had to jump through some hoops to have done with humans. Let's face it, "My daughter is going to be ninty-years old before she's around the age to leave her clan with her blessings, so deuces" is not really something that works so well with humans. The two-different worlds aspect was easier to set up with the difference races as well. The having pity and feeling sadness seeing your former lover withering away overshadowing all the anger you've felt for an apparent betrayal? Yeah, still probably better with the elves / humans thing.
In before "Tolkien did it first"! (^.^)"
Cool, sounded a bit like a reverse Braid at first. No, I must get away from my wife! Lol.
It seems you really expanded on the ideas of why half elves are looked down upon and pitied in the Elven fluff.
I provided an example of that upthread. For the player in question, it was 'I want to play the character represented by this miniature, which I have just purchased and will lovingly paint this weekend, or I won't play.'
I cannot imagine that this sort of thing is all that isolated.
OK, I stand corrected -- someone DID actually say that!
I'd call this one guy who's that attached to his doll to be just as bad as the DM who's obsessively attached to the "purity" of his imaginary setting.
They aren't dolls, they're figures! And while I may still show up with my own super-cool, lovingly painted figure, I haven't demanded that my character be identical it for (no kidding) decades. Look, I don't know what you want from me; Aenur from Games Workshop's Mordheim line looks badass. (Full disclosure, not my paint job.)
I am going to paint all my figures with +5 swords from now on, though, instead of dumb old metal ones; that's just good sense.
He does look good.
I can respect elves with two handed sabres.
Leave us to our false dilemmas!
NEVA!
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Or, to put it in modern terms, there would be no difference if china was wiped off the map or the uk?
do you even understand the vast difference actual real life countries, and fantasy creatures in a game with mutable fluff? you basically didn't answer the scenario at all. If wanted to switch the fluff between gnomes and elves I could...in fact they are similar enough it wouldn't even be difficult or a stretch.
Or, to put it in modern terms, there would be no difference if china was wiped off the map or the uk?do you even understand the vast difference actual real life countries, and fantasy creatures in a game with mutable fluff? you basically didn't answer the scenario at all. If wanted to switch the fluff between gnomes and elves I could...in fact they are similar enough it wouldn't even be difficult or a stretch.
Yah, just rewrite all of history, change a bunch of relationships, rework serval countries. No biggie.
Sorry, but its not that easy to rewrite a game with actual background, and no, elves and gnomes are NOT interchangeable.
Perhaps in your skeletal home brew there aren't other things involved. Not true when you aren't talking skeletal. Sorry, all the races and their histories and proclivities are not just infinitely interchangeable ...
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That is why I like to have my stuff in electronic format. Then I can just tell it to go through the documents replace all the gnome entries with elf entries. *brushes hands off* Done and done.
That is why I like to have my stuff in electronic format. Then I can just tell it to go through the documents replace all the gnome entries with elf entries. *brushes hands off* Done and done.
And if that worked, it would be great. But it doesn't. And its rather absurd to presume it would in most cases.
I think it works for pres man. The power of microsoft word.
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Wait... If elves don't exist in the setting, then shouldn't there be no histories or proclivities for them in the setting? If would be silly, for example, for dwarves to have a rivalry with a non-existent race.
Just for fun:
ELVES
Elves trace their lineage back to the mysterious realm of the fey, a place where colors are brighter, the wildlands wilder, and emotions more primal. Unknown forces drove the ancient elves from that realm long ago, forcing them to seek refuge in this world; despite this, the elves have never completely abandoned their fey roots or adapted to mortal culture. As a result, elves are widely regarded by the other races as alien and strange.
Physical Description: Elves are one of the tallest of the common races, generally standing just over 6 feet in height. Their hair tends toward vibrant colors such as the fiery orange of autumn leaves, the verdant green of forests at springtime, or the deep reds and purples of wildflowers in bloom. Similarly, their flesh tones range from earthy browns to floral pinks, frequently with little regard for heredity. Elves possess highly mutable facial characteristics, and many have overly large mouths and eyes, an effect which can be both disturbing and stunning, depending on the individual.
Society: Unlike most races, elves do not generally organize themselves within classic societal structures. Whimsical creatures at heart, they typically travel alone or with temporary companions, ever seeking new and more exciting experiences. They rarely form enduring relationships among themselves or with members of other races, instead pursuing crafts, professions, or collections with a passion that borders on zealotry. Male elves have a strange fondness for unusual hats and headgear, while females often proudly wear elaborate and eccentric hairstyles.
Relations: Elves have difficulty interacting with the other races, on both emotional and physical levels. Elf humor is hard to translate and often comes across as malicious or senseless to other races, while elves in turn tend to think of the other races as dull. They get along well with halflings and humans, but are overly fond of playing jokes on dwarves and half-orcs, whom most elves feel need to lighten up. They respect gnomes, but often grow frustrated with the comparatively slow pace at which members of the long-lived race make decisions. To the elves, action is always better than inaction, and many elves carry several highly involved projects with them at all times to keep themselves entertained during rest periods.
Alignment and Religion: Although elves are impulsive tricksters, with sometimes inscrutable motives and equally confusing methods, their hearts are generally in the right place. They are prone to powerful fits of emotion, and find themselves most at peace within the natural world.
Adventurers: Elves' propensity for wanderlust makes them natural adventurers. They often become wanderers to experience new aspects of life, for nothing is as novel as the uncounted dangers facing adventurers. Elves make up for their weakness with a proclivity for sorcery or bardic music.
EDIT: I should note I did tweak a couple of details dealing with height. Had this been from 3.5 (my preferred system), where elves are one of the smaller medium races, just over 5 ft typically, the height would have been a non-issue.
Perhaps in your skeletal home brew there aren't other things involved. Not true when you aren't talking skeletal. Sorry, all the races and their histories and proclivities are not just infinitely interchangeable ...What other things?
Oh come on. Are you being purposely obtuse here?
Apparently Arssanguinus requires not only his players, but everyone in the entire world, to play according to the dictums of his campaign world.
Apparently Arssanguinus requires not only his players, but everyone in the entire world, to play according to the dictums of his campaign world.
Ah: so claiming that just swapping elves with gnomes for example will cause NO other changes and everything will remain otherwise exactly the same?
Not even remotely plausible.
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Oh come on. Are you being purposely obtuse here?
Would you prefer I put words in your mouth then?
Bottom line, the setting is only as rigid as you make it. If you can't redefine something, or you can't rename something, because "those aren't X, they are Y" it's your own choice enforcing that. Not some objective truth that "the setting breaks when you do that".
Not even remotely plausible.
Only because you refuse to accept it.
Oh come on. Are you being purposely obtuse here?
Would you prefer I put words in your mouth then?
Bottom line, the setting is only as rigid as you make it. If you can't redefine something, or you can't rename something, because "those aren't X, they are Y" it's your own choice enforcing that. Not some objective truth that "the setting breaks when you do that".
... Ok ..l so you ARE n fact saying that if you just changes the entire personal personality and culture and relationships of the existing races t would have a minimal or no effect on anything ...
Oh come on. Are you being purposely obtuse here?Would you prefer I put words in your mouth then?
Bottom line, the setting is only as rigid as you make it. If you can't redefine something, or you can't rename something, because "those aren't X, they are Y" it's your own choice enforcing that. Not some objective truth that "the setting breaks when you do that".
Not even remotely plausible.Only because you refuse to accept it.
No. Because of this weird thing called reality.
Elves are not gnomes.(and I'm not even bringing statistics into the argument. Statistics are irrelevant to this).
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No. Because of this weird thing called reality.
Elves are not gnomes.(and I'm not even bringing statistics into the argument. Statistics are irrelevant to this).
Arssanguinus, elves and gnomes both aren't real. They're races we made up to play games with in an imaginary world with lots of dice rolling.
Elves are not gnomes.Why not? Which elves? Which gnomes?
Because it's not Christmas.
... Whatever. I ca tell you aren't even interested in making a serious argument here, because I really can't see how you think just swapping which CULTURE isn't there with all the history and everything else doesn't make a difference.
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It is funny when I did the switch in the above post, as I was reading it I kept thinking of when Bilbo and the dwarves first came to Rivendale in the book and the elves were singing and joking with them. It sounded very much like that elf-gnome description above to me.
Arssanguinus, elves and gnomes both aren't real. They're races we made up to play games with in an imaginary world with lots of dice rolling.No. Because of this weird thing called reality.
Elves are not gnomes.(and I'm not even bringing statistics into the argument. Statistics are irrelevant to this).
Whatever.
This is getting ridiculous. Swapping out one entire culture for another entire culture is, plain and simple going to effect the entire setting in a rather large way.
I see you making a lot of statements without backing them up, and then acting incredulous when I ask for specifics.
Lets just pull Britain out of the uk and put Russia there instead. It shouldn't have any major effect.
So are you going to explain why you think it will? [/QUOTE
Don't need t because its completely self evident? Explain how in the world it WOULDN'T.
Can't prove a negative.
Can't prove a negative.
Very convenient for you isn't it?
Can't prove a negative.Very convenient for you isn't it?
Logic? Yes. Yes it is.
But above with the rewrite of the gnome entry from the prd, I already showed that just changing the names (I almost wrote gnames, that's funny) and tweaking the issues with height, we got a totally workable elf-gnome switch.
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I'm personally not a fan of the idea that (non-human) races should have only one culture. It feeds into the "all dwarves are a stereotype" problem that some people see with non-human races. So really, it's just that gnomes are being replaced with one elven culture, not that all elves must be exactly like gnomes. I mean, it's not like cultures that fit one race cannot also fit another race. I thought pres man's gnome/elf swap sounded like a lot of ideas of what makes an elf in a fantasy world.
I can see where it might make a difference, depending on what the overall scenario is. Perhaps the lack of elves as playable characters is because they are being set up to replace drow, and the reason they left the world ties into all this. Perhaps their settlements throughout the other planets ties into all this as well.
That would be a good enough reason for it to happen, and some small amount of information could be related to the players about why they aren't allowed and why you couldn't just swap them. I mean, you COULD swap them, but major plot points might change.
In that case, if they are so similar why can't the player just play a gnome, instead of everything else having to change?