Stick (free) + spellcasting service:CL x SL x 10 (2x3x10) 60gp + expensive material component:ruby (50) + 110gp.
The Ioun torch is identical, except instead of being cast on a stick it's cast on a burned-out Ioun stone. It should cost 110gp+25gp=135gp. Why it doesn't is a mystery.
Or else the ioun stone should cost 50gp.
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Also there's that weird helmet in Ultimate Equipment that is essentially "candle-on-your-head" and it costs several hundred if i remember. (At work, or I'd look it up.)
THAT item is ridiculous. Utterly useless.
Price 900 gp; Aura faint evocation; CL1st; Weight—
This small cloth skullcap resembles those some priests wear, but is topped with a small silver statue in the shape of a lit candle. The wearer can command the statue to radiate light (as the spell). The light can also be turned off on command.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Cost 450 gp
Craft Wondrous Item, light
Aura strong universal; CL 12th
Slot none; Price 75 gp; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
This item is merely a burned out, dull gray ioun stone with a continual flame spell cast upon it. It retains the ability to float and orbit, and allows the bearer to carry light and still have his hands free. It may be in any crystalline shape common to ioun stones (ellipsoid, prism, sphere, and so on).
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, continual flame, creator must be 12th level; Cost 62 gp, 5 sp
Both the Everburning Torch and the Ioun Torch will help cancel out the effect of a Darkness, but not negate it and keep functioning. ( ie ambient conditions, usually darkness indoors, will prevail. unless someone has a nonmagical light source, like a regular torch, which will continue to illuminate ). Both do nothing against Deeper Darkness.
But its not as though the ioun torch just has a light spell. its still continual light. I've always thought it a cheap cop out to get an Ioun Torch, to keep hands free. ( And wondered how the dancing shadows from a light whirling around one, or several people's heads, doesn't make them all dizzy and puke ). Its not just 35gp for a better item, its 35gp less for a better item, that frees your hands for sword and board or two handed weapons. a HUGE boost in most every case. always better to have hands free, for options.
The ridiculous UE Cap of Light though is 900gp for a cap that can just radiate light, as the light spell. on command. not even continual light, so it does nothing against Darkness or Deeper Darkness. at 900gp, this little gem completely eclipses the two continual light items in price, and uselessness.
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Ravingdork:
Look at it as a feature that makes the gameworld much more believable. How often can you look at two comparable products and think: Wow - that one is much too expensive for what it does, it is even worse then this cheaper item. Then you look around and see that the more expensive item is selling better for some negliable reason.
It is just fair that the same sort of problems exist in a gameworld ;-)
That's what I've been asking Serphimpunk. All these people saying it should be left alone just don't make sense to me.
Why wouldn't you want consistency? Why wouldn't you want to fix a discrepancy, however small?
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The Ioun torch is not a crafted magic item! The original Ioun stone was, but now it's burned out. You don't craft burned out Ioun stones any more than you craft empty wands!
This item is merely a burned out, dull gray ioun stone with a continual flame spell cast upon it.
It's not even ambiguous! The continual flame part wasn't crafted using Craft Wondrous Item, the spell was cast normally but on a burned out Ioun stone instead of a stick!
As for the Everburning Torch, I've always thought that casting the spell on a torch (and thus requiring a hand) was an idea that wouldn't survive a day when you can just cast the spell on a reversible belt buckle, a hat-band, the face of a shield, or a hundred other better things than a torch.
Does the price of the Ioun Torch include the -2 Charisma penalty for looking likea complete dweeb? Seriously, the thing should play tinkly carousel music while orbiting.
More seriously, it seems like an Ioun Stone should be subject to Diana without promoting attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it should be fair game for Mage Hand.
That's what I've been asking Serphimpunk. All these people saying it should be left alone just don't make sense to me.
Why wouldn't you want consistency? Why wouldn't you want to fix a discrepancy, however small?
Because like feytharn said it only adds to realism that not everything is priced according to their real value. Maybe the ioun torch has crappy marketing or their inventor is really unpopular. Also it don't matter.
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Well, the Everburning Torch can be used with the Torch Handling and Firebrand feats.
Ioun Torch cannot.
Ioun Torch is a Dull Gray Ioun Stone, which costs 25gp, with Continual Flame cast on it.
Continual Flame, is a 2nd level sorcerer/wizard spell, meaning the minimum caster level is 3rd.
So, in Spellcasting services section, we see that the cost, Caster level × spell level × 10 gp, would give us a total of 50gp.
So, 50 + 25 = 75.
Price is correct.
The only odd thing, is the Construction Requirements listed.
Now those, seem very wrong.
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Well, the Everburning Torch can be used with the Torch Handling and Firebrand feats.
Ioun Torch cannot.
Ioun Torch is a Dull Gray Ioun Stone, which costs 25gp, with Continual Flame cast on it.
Continual Flame, is a 2nd level sorcerer/wizard spell, meaning the minimum caster level is 3rd.
So, in Spellcasting services section, we see that the cost, Caster level × spell level × 10 gp, would give us a total of 50gp.
So, 50 + 25 = 75.
Price is correct.
The only odd thing, is the Construction Requirements listed.
** spoiler omitted **Now those, seem very wrong.
Caster level x spell level x 10 = 60, not 50.
25+60=85, so the price cannot be correct.
There is also the matter of an expensive material component, a 50gp ruby.
Total cost = 60 (SLxCLx10) + 50 (ruby) + 25 (Ioun stone) = 135gp.
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So on the list of the inconsistencies regardign the Ioun Torch, has anybody else noticed that this may be the only magic item that has a crafting cost greater than half its market price? That seems like a major error here, given that all the other items in the book come at least close to Magic Item Creation "guidelines." And this isn't one of the cases where it should actually have any kind of variance, like some of the less cut and dry items that modify certain class abilities (i.e. Stag Lord's Helm, Kingmaker). This is a pretty straightforward item.
In addition, even though it is a Magic Item, it doesn't come even close to the Magic Item Creation price.
Magic Item Creation Price: spell level (2) x caster level (3) x 2,000 (base) x 0.5 (modifier) + 25 (additional material component) = 6,025gp
Base Spellcasting Price: 25 (dull gray ioun stone) + (2 [spell level] x 3 [caster level] x 10 [base]) + 50 (spell material component = 135gp.
Also, Blackbloodtroll, your analysis of the spellcasting section is inaccurate. According to the spellcasting section of Goods and Services, the following formula applies:
Spell Level x Caster Level x 10gp + Material Component
Plugging the numbers in, we get the following:
2 x 3 x 10gp + 50 = 110gp
The spellcasting cost for casting continual flame is equal to the price of an Everburning Torch, period. The fact that an Ioun Torch uses an inconsistent and inaccurate mixture of Magic Item Creation rules and Spellcasting Services rules is, frankly, a bit sloppy. I can see why Ravingdork raised the initial question.
Edit: Also, everburning torches don't qualify for the Firebrand feat. They don't produce heat or burn things.
I assume the stone does not pass quite in front of the character's eyes; that would be a serious drawback to any ioun stone, fiery or no. As for the dancing shadows, these probably would not be worse than those cast by a torch carried by a companion in combat.
This piece of equipment is a nice answer to: what to do with a burnt out ioun stone? Its cost should be stone + component + spell casting service cost. I imagine these to be rare in a typical game world.
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So on the list of the inconsistencies regardign the Ioun Torch, has anybody else noticed that this may be the only magic item that has a crafting cost greater than half its market price? That seems like a major error here, given that all the other items in the book come at least close to Magic Item Creation "guidelines." And this isn't one of the cases where it should actually have any kind of variance, like some of the less cut and dry items that modify certain class abilities (i.e. Stag Lord's Helm, Kingmaker). This is a pretty straightforward item.
Tome of Understanding
...
Slot none; Price 27,500 gp (+1), 55,000 gp (+2), 82,500 gp (+3), 110,000 gp (+4), 137,500 gp (+5); Weight 5 lbs.
...
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, miracle or wish; Cost 26,250 gp (+1), 52,500 gp (+2), 78,750 gp (+3), 105,000 gp (+4), 131,250 gp (+5)
It is because of this piece of the rules:
Spell has material component cost Add directly into price of item per charge 4
4 If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges.
And, BTW, if the ioun torch was a permanent item, you would have to pay for 100 uses of the spell during the creation process. 5.000 gp in costly material components (rubies). ouch.
That's what I've been asking Serphimpunk. All these people saying it should be left alone just don't make sense to me.
Why wouldn't you want consistency? Why wouldn't you want to fix a discrepancy, however small?
Walk into a McDonalds and look at the price of a 10 piece nuggets. Now look at the price of a twenty piece nuggets. Note that that it's MUCH more pricey to buy two ten pieces. It's a real world discrepancy, so why shouldn't the game world have them too?
I'm fine with archon aasimars making these, so they need no material components making the 75gp price fine. Heck they make money each time it's done. Caster level × spell level × 10 gp for an archon aasimar would be 1 x 2 x 10, or 20gp...
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That's what I've been asking Serphimpunk. All these people saying it should be left alone just don't make sense to me.
Why wouldn't you want consistency? Why wouldn't you want to fix a discrepancy, however small?
Walk into a McDonalds and look at the price of a 10 piece nuggets. Now look at the price of a twenty piece nuggets. Note that that it's MUCH more pricey to buy two ten pieces. It's a real world discrepancy, so why shouldn't the game world have them too?
I'm fine with archon aasimars making these, so they need no material components making the 75gp price fine. Heck they make money each time it's done. Caster level × spell level × 10 gp for an archon aasimar would be 1 x 2 x 10, or 20gp...
That's the wrong kind of comparison, though. You aren't looking at the difference between buying two small items vs. a larger equivalent item. What you're actually looking at is more along the lines of two nearly identical items, like so:
10-piece nugget is $10 (random number)
10-piece nugget combo with barbecue sauce is $7.
10-nugget = continual flame. Combo with barbecue sauce = slotless magical item that can't be victim of dispel. Make any sense to you to sell same plus more for less?
If everyone is just going to use lantern archons, then why are everburning torches 110gp, hm?
That's what I've been asking Serphimpunk. All these people saying it should be left alone just don't make sense to me.
Why wouldn't you want consistency? Why wouldn't you want to fix a discrepancy, however small?
Walk into a McDonalds and look at the price of a 10 piece nuggets. Now look at the price of a twenty piece nuggets. Note that that it's MUCH more pricey to buy two ten pieces. It's a real world discrepancy, so why shouldn't the game world have them too?
I'm fine with archon aasimars making these, so they need no material components making the 75gp price fine. Heck they make money each time it's done. Caster level × spell level × 10 gp for an archon aasimar would be 1 x 2 x 10, or 20gp...
That's the wrong kind of comparison, though. You aren't looking at the difference between buying two small items vs. a larger equivalent item. What you're actually looking at is more along the lines of two nearly identical items, like so:
10-piece nugget is $10 (random number)
10-piece nugget combo with barbecue sauce is $7.10-nugget = continual flame. Combo with barbecue sauce = slotless magical item that can't be victim of dispel. Make any sense to you to sell same plus more for less?
No, 20 costs less than 10 + 10. NO combo, I have no idea where you are going with that. it's in in fact a straight 1 to 1 comparison. 20 SHOULD equal 10 + 10, but it doesn't.
If everyone is just going to use lantern archons, then why are everburning torches 110gp, hm?
Shortage of ioun stones? The archon union only casts on stones? Archons only make so many and others can churn them out so there are more torches than ioun torches? Really it doesn't matter. The bottom line is you CAN make it for under the cost, so it isn't a case of it being "clearly an error"
So it can be sweatshops with archon aasimars, or it could be that the makers just wanted a cheaper light source around for early adventures. Either way I don't see it being a bigger consistency problem or a discrepancy. As I pointed out, I can walk down the street to McDonalds and 20 is less than 10 + 10. If the real world keeps spinning, the game world should do just fine with prices as-is.
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IOUN TORCH
Aura strong universal; CL 12th
Slot none; Price 75 gp; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
This item is merely a burned out, dull gray ioun stone with a continual flame spell cast upon it. It retains the ability to float and orbit, and allows the bearer to carry light and still have his hands free. It may be in any crystalline shape common to ioun stones (ellipsoid, prism, sphere, and so on).
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, continual flame, creator must be 12th level; Cost 62 gp, 5 sp
As the description says, it's just a stone with a spell cast on it; it's not a magic item at all, although the stone it's cast upon is/was.
Even if you craft the burned out stone yourself (if that's even possible), then the stone costs you 12gp5sp, and the 110gp cost would be on top of that.
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No, 20 costs less than 10 + 10. NO combo, I have no idea where you are going with that. it's in in fact a straight 1 to 1 comparison. 20 SHOULD equal 10 + 10, but it doesn't.
No. There are several issues at play here, including economies of scale, the fact that the cost of the meal includes other costs besides just the chicken, and supply and demand. Basically, the marginal cost of the 20th nugget in the box is substantially lower than the marginal cost of the first (or the 10th) in the box, not least because the box itself isn't free.
But I don't think you've really understood the significance of the type of error here. An ioun torch isn't just less expensive than two everburning torches -- it's actually better than the everburning torch while being cheaper. You get an improvement for negative money.
It would be as if you could walk into the McD's and buy a 20 piece meal for less than the price of the 10 piece meal, as if Ronald were literally paying you to accept the extra 10 pieces of chicken.
But wait...
To take someone's torch away from them you need to do a disarm attempt. To take someone's ioun torch away from them, all you need to do is grasp it (or net it).
Torches (everburning or otherwise) are clearly worth more because they're harder to take away.
Dilemma solved.
Two similar things, priced differently because... they're different.
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No, 20 costs less than 10 + 10. NO combo, I have no idea where you are going with that. it's in in fact a straight 1 to 1 comparison. 20 SHOULD equal 10 + 10, but it doesn't.That's what I've been asking Serphimpunk. All these people saying it should be left alone just don't make sense to me.
Why wouldn't you want consistency? Why wouldn't you want to fix a discrepancy, however small?
Walk into a McDonalds and look at the price of a 10 piece nuggets. Now look at the price of a twenty piece nuggets. Note that that it's MUCH more pricey to buy two ten pieces. It's a real world discrepancy, so why shouldn't the game world have them too?
I'm fine with archon aasimars making these, so they need no material components making the 75gp price fine. Heck they make money each time it's done. Caster level × spell level × 10 gp for an archon aasimar would be 1 x 2 x 10, or 20gp...
That's the wrong kind of comparison, though. You aren't looking at the difference between buying two small items vs. a larger equivalent item. What you're actually looking at is more along the lines of two nearly identical items, like so:
10-piece nugget is $10 (random number)
10-piece nugget combo with barbecue sauce is $7.10-nugget = continual flame. Combo with barbecue sauce = slotless magical item that can't be victim of dispel. Make any sense to you to sell same plus more for less?
The point I was getting at is that comparing an Ioun torch to an Everburning torch isn't like comparing 20 to 10+10. It's like comparing 10 to 10. They're both just things with Continual Flame cast on them. In theory, they should cost about the same price. Any difference should stem from the fact that in one case, you're casting the spell on a stick/torch, which costs nothing or next to nothing, and in other case you're casting it on an item that a) costs money to acquire, and b) grants the item properties that make it superior to the other. Hence, an Everburning torch being cost-equivalent to 10 (cost of spell), while the Ioun torch comes in at cost-equivalent 7, despite being superior in a number of ways.
Your initial comparison of comparing 20 to 10+10 isn't really a valid comparison. You're ending up with the same amount of nuggets, yes, but you're also ending up with more packaging on one side. Your comparison is more like buying 5 torches individually at the normal price vs. getting a case price like 6 for the price of 5. Or, to look at it differently, you're comparing apples to apples. This is more an apples to oranges situation.
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But wait...
To take someone's torch away from them you need to do a disarm attempt. To take someone's ioun torch away from them, all you need to do is grasp it (or net it).
Torches (everburning or otherwise) are clearly worth more because they're harder to take away.
Dilemma solved.
Two similar things, priced differently because... they're different.
To take someone ioun stone you need to sue the steal maneuver:
Steal
You can attempt to take an item from a foe as a standard action. This maneuver can be used in melee to take any item that is neither held nor hidden in a bag or pack. You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to attempt this maneuver. You must select the item to be taken before the check is made. Items that are simply tucked into a belt or loosely attached (such as brooches or necklaces) are the easiest to take. Items fastened to a foe (such as cloaks, sheathed weapons, or pouches) are more difficult to take, and give the opponent a +5 bonus (or greater) to his CMD. Items that are closely worn (such as armor, backpacks, boots, clothing, or rings) cannot be taken with this maneuver. Items held in the hands (such as wielded weapons or wands) also cannot be taken with the steal maneuver—you must use the disarm combat maneuver instead. The GM is the final arbiter of what items can be taken. If you do not have the Improved Steal feat or a similar ability, attempting to steal an object provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.Although this maneuver can only be performed if the target is within your reach, you can use a whip to steal an object from a target within range with a –4 penalty on the attack roll.
If your attack is successful, you may take one item from your opponent. You must be able to reach the item to be taken (subject to GM discretion). Your enemy is immediately aware of this theft unless you possess the Greater Steal feat.
It is standard action (worse than disarm);
the target is your enemy CMD (same as disarm)-So, torches are easier to take away, not harder.
Inconsistency? Yes. Discrepancy? Very Little. Big deal? Hardly.
Torches are really only useful in the lower levels. By at most 7th Level, characters should have Light spells and all sorts of stuff available to them for usage; I mean come on, ~35% of Magic Items have a free Light Spell cast on them (they luminate light equal to the Light spell).
By this logic, we should all go and make a thread which says "THAT ITEM IS PRICED WRONG, IT'S MISSING 5 GP ON ITS PRICE BECAUSE IT HAS A LIGHT SPELL EFFECT ON IT!"
Then, we get to selling such items.
"GM, THIS ITEM SHEDS PERMANENT LIGHT, I WANT MY 2 GP AND 5 SP FROM THAT MERCHANT, OR I WILL KILL HIM FOR IT."
See what happens when we complain about insignificant inconsistencies? Anarchy. People go Chaotic Evil because they aren't getting their RAW money's worth of shiny magical vendor items that have Light effects on them, and they make Rocks Fall, and Everyone Dies.
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Ah, but since you are crafting as a magic item, you don't need to pay that spellcaster over there to cast the spell, you are the one doing it yourself. Therefore, you only need to provide the 50gp ruby material component. And even if you don't have the spell (+5 on the crafting roll), you still pay the money for the component.IOUN TORCH
Aura strong universal; CL 12th
Slot none; Price 75 gp; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
This item is merely a burned out, dull gray ioun stone with a continual flame spell cast upon it. It retains the ability to float and orbit, and allows the bearer to carry light and still have his hands free. It may be in any crystalline shape common to ioun stones (ellipsoid, prism, sphere, and so on).
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, continual flame, creator must be 12th level; Cost 62 gp, 5 spAs the description says, it's just a stone with a spell cast on it; it's not a magic item at all, although the stone it's cast upon is/was.
Even if you craft the burned out stone yourself (if that's even possible), then the stone costs you 12gp5sp, and the 110gp cost would be on top of that.
Which actually demonstrates why the item is accurately priced. Yes, changing camps here.
So the price to craft the item in question is accurate at 62.5gp. You have to craft the stone, and you then add the material component. But then, to calculate market price, set the material component cost aside, double, then put the material component cost back in. 12.5 (cost to craft the stone) doubled is 25. There are no other materials going into the item, so the only additional cost isthe material component of the spell. It's misleading that it's in the magic item section because it isn't functioning as one. It uses magic item creation rules to craft the stone, then it's just a normal spell cast. The only cost to cast continual flame yourself is material. So, even though it's odd and requires a source of Ioun stones or a 12th level caster, the price is accurate.
I'd feel better if there was some verbiage explaining that in its entry. Also, it shouldn't be amongst magic items with Craft Wondrous Item as a mandatory prerequisite if all it is, is a continual flame spell.
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The Ioun torch is not a crafted magic item! The original Ioun stone was, but now it's burned out. You don't craft burned out Ioun stones any more than you craft empty wands!
This item is merely a burned out, dull gray ioun stone with a continual flame spell cast upon it.It's not even ambiguous! The continual flame part wasn't crafted using Craft Wondrous Item, the spell was cast normally but on a burned out Ioun stone instead of a stick!
As for the Everburning Torch, I've always thought that casting the spell on a torch (and thus requiring a hand) was an idea that wouldn't survive a day when you can just cast the spell on a reversible belt buckle, a hat-band, the face of a shield, or a hundred other better things than a torch.
The rest of the entry would appear to be somewhat inconsistent with the flavor text, in this regard.
Dully gray ioun stone: Faint universal aura, CL 12
Ioun torch: Strong universal aura, CL 12
Continual flame: Evocation
There's no reason casting an evocation spell on a dull gray ioun stone would cause the item's aura to change from faint universal to strong universal - which suggests that the ioun torch is indeed a wondrous item in its own right.
Combined with its placement in the wondrous items section rather than the equipment section, that would overall suggest I think that it is indeed a wondrous item (thus, not subject to dispel magic, and whatever), despite the flavor text suggesting otherwise.
Hence the attempt to get a FAQ Coriat. There is much that can be cleared up. I urge people to FAQ your post as well.
To take someone ioun stone you need to sue the steal maneuver:
It is standard action (worse than disarm);...
Such pretty quoted text. And yet... it seems that the ioun stone entry in Core actually tells us what is required to remove a stone from its owner. No mention of steal (though no great shock since steal is an APG rule). This has always been one of the great worries about ioun stones; they're just floating around you, unattended, unworn, unprotected. They're in a category of their own, unlike spell component pouches or arrows or hats or pretty much anything else.
"Thereafter, a stone must be grasped or netted to separate it from its owner. The owner may voluntarily seize and stow a stone (to keep it safe
while she is sleeping, for example), but she loses the benefits of the stone during that time."
I'd feel better if there was some verbiage explaining that in its entry. Also, it shouldn't be amongst magic items with Craft Wondrous Item as a mandatory prerequisite if all it is, is a continual flame spell.
It requires Craft Wondrous Item because Ioun Stones are magic items that require that feat to create them.
That makes sense Robert, but the fact that they did that only really serves to obfuscate the matter.
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Actually, I'm going to amend my previous position. The item crafting cost is accurate, but the purchase price is still wrong. It should actually be 135gp. When you purchase the item, you are paying that spellcaster to cast continual flame on the item.
Agreed.
The universal principle of magic item creation in 3rd/PF is that the market price is double the cost to create.
Why? Profit, and labour costs.
If you create a wondrous item and it costs you 1000gp in materials, then you also put time, sweat and tears into its creation. When you sell it, this is represented buy the sale price being double the cost to create.
Similarly, getting someone to cast a spell for you costs money for their service. If some stranger asks you to cast a spell for them then you charge them. If you sell an item that you have cast a permanent spell upon, then your spellcasting service will be added to the sale price.
No matter who casts the continual flame spell on the burnt out Ioun stone, that spellcasting service will be included in the sale price.
glowing rock city!
Glowing Rock City!
GLOWING ROCK CITY!
We sell Glowing Rocks!
Fun for kids!
Fun for pets!
Fun for ALL AGES!
Tired of spending all of that time lighting a torch?
Why bother, when you can have a glowing rock!
A glowing rock AROUND YOUR HEAD!
All shapes! All sizes! 75 gp!
Mention our add in Advanced Player's Guide for a tax free purchase!
glowing rock city!
Glowing Rock City!
GLOWING ROCK CITY!
We sell glowing rocks!
...and that's all...
Bah. The discrepancy in pricing is easy to explain.
You have to get the wizard to cast continual flame on something for each of these items.
The wizard only forces you to pay spell casting services for an ever burning torch because he has to cast a spell on a stick. A stick!? Psh.
He doesn't charge when he get the opportunity to cast it on an ioun stone because that’s just cool. Wizards like stuff that is awesome. And the Ioun Torch is most definitely awesome!