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@Seth
1. Right you are. Sorry
2. Of course the player would still need to own the bestiary, but they should still be able to have their NPC friend pick feats that the CRB says they can take. Just because the a player can't pick these choices for their PC, doesn't mean that their NPC pet can't.
1. Meh, no problem. I've been called worse. ;)
2.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Bestiary
Animal Companions: ankylosaurus, aurochs, brachiosaurus, dire bat, dire rat, dolphin, elasmosaurus, electric eel, elephant/mastodon, frog, goblin dog, hyena, monitor lizard, moray eel, octopus, orca, pteranodon, rhinoceros, roc, squid, stegosaurus, triceratops, and tyrannosaurus; Familiars: all familiars listed on pages 131–133; Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source. Other: all creatures in this book are legal for polymorph effects (including a druid's wild shape ability) within the boundaries of each spell or ability's parameters.
Emphasis mine. And the Bestiary 2 and 3 have similar entries.
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Even though ACs are controlled by the GM you must own any additional resources you are using with them. You cant cop out by saying they are gm controlled. Improved natural armor and improved natural attack are in the bestiary not CRB so you must have the bestiary to use them. You are complaining about the cost of printing paper that costs pennies per page. Pens and pencils are required to play too. So are dice. Your character sheets are required to play too. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing so I'm just gonna leave you be. There are plenty of cheaper hobbies to try. If your post history is indicative of your total time playing PFS, I've been playing about as long as you in that I started playing PFS in march 2013. Before that, in my home games, I only owned the core book and used d20pfsrd for everything. PFS gives you more consistent gaming sessions that don't depend on the schedule of your friends. The drawback is that you have to buy books to play. I see it as a fair trade. I am sorry that you don't.
@Seth
1. Right you are. Sorry
2. Of course the player would still need to own the bestiary, but they should still be able to have their NPC friend pick feats that the CRB says they can take. Just because the a player can't pick these choices for their PC, doesn't mean that their NPC pet can't.
1. Meh, no problem. I've been called worse. ;)
2.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Bestiary
Animal Companions: ankylosaurus, aurochs, brachiosaurus, dire bat, dire rat, dolphin, elasmosaurus, electric eel, elephant/mastodon, frog, goblin dog, hyena, monitor lizard, moray eel, octopus, orca, pteranodon, rhinoceros, roc, squid, stegosaurus, triceratops, and tyrannosaurus; Familiars: all familiars listed on pages 131–133; Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source. Other: all creatures in this book are legal for polymorph effects (including a druid's wild shape ability) within the boundaries of each spell or ability's parameters.
Emphasis mine. And the Bestiary 2 and 3 have similar entries.
Unless granted by another legal source.
The CRB grants access. Do that not work?
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@Seth
1. Right you are. Sorry
2. Of course the player would still need to own the bestiary, but they should still be able to have their NPC friend pick feats that the CRB says they can take. Just because the a player can't pick these choices for their PC, doesn't mean that their NPC pet can't.
1. Meh, no problem. I've been called worse. ;)
2.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Bestiary
Animal Companions: ankylosaurus, aurochs, brachiosaurus, dire bat, dire rat, dolphin, elasmosaurus, electric eel, elephant/mastodon, frog, goblin dog, hyena, monitor lizard, moray eel, octopus, orca, pteranodon, rhinoceros, roc, squid, stegosaurus, triceratops, and tyrannosaurus; Familiars: all familiars listed on pages 131–133; Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source. Other: all creatures in this book are legal for polymorph effects (including a druid's wild shape ability) within the boundaries of each spell or ability's parameters.
Emphasis mine. And the Bestiary 2 and 3 have similar entries.
Unless granted by another legal source.
The CRB grants access. Do that not work?
You could argue it that way if you wanted to, but I believe the intention is that the feat needs to be printed in another source and then the feat in THAT source is listed on the Additional Resource page as being legal for PFS.
I see what you mean by your question, but if you sat at a table and argued it that way, I think youd be disappointed. :/
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@Seth
1. Right you are. Sorry
2. Of course the player would still need to own the bestiary, but they should still be able to have their NPC friend pick feats that the CRB says they can take. Just because the a player can't pick these choices for their PC, doesn't mean that their NPC pet can't.
1. Meh, no problem. I've been called worse. ;)
2.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Bestiary
Animal Companions: ankylosaurus, aurochs, brachiosaurus, dire bat, dire rat, dolphin, elasmosaurus, electric eel, elephant/mastodon, frog, goblin dog, hyena, monitor lizard, moray eel, octopus, orca, pteranodon, rhinoceros, roc, squid, stegosaurus, triceratops, and tyrannosaurus; Familiars: all familiars listed on pages 131–133; Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source. Other: all creatures in this book are legal for polymorph effects (including a druid's wild shape ability) within the boundaries of each spell or ability's parameters.
Emphasis mine. And the Bestiary 2 and 3 have similar entries.
Unless granted by another legal source.
The CRB grants access. Do that not work?
You could argue it that way if you wanted to, but I believe the intention is that the feat needs to be printed in another source and then the feat in THAT source is listed on the Additional Resource page as being legal for PFS.
I see what you mean by your question, but if you sat at a table and argued it that way, I think youd be disappointed. :/
I'd have to disagree with you on this one Seth. It's the same reasoning that a natural weapon ranger from the APG can gain access to multiattack and imp natural attack. The CRB is specifically granting access to those feats for animal companions. The feat doesn't have to be reprinted, you just have to be specifically granted the right to use them.
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@Seth
1. Right you are. Sorry
2. Of course the player would still need to own the bestiary, but they should still be able to have their NPC friend pick feats that the CRB says they can take. Just because the a player can't pick these choices for their PC, doesn't mean that their NPC pet can't.
The Animal Companion doesn't have the intelligence to pick the feat, the PC/Player does... so therefore.... no.
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The Animal Companion doesn't have the intelligence to pick the feat, the PC/Player does... so therefore.... no.@Seth
1. Right you are. Sorry
2. Of course the player would still need to own the bestiary, but they should still be able to have their NPC friend pick feats that the CRB says they can take. Just because the a player can't pick these choices for their PC, doesn't mean that their NPC pet can't.
The Animal Companion only needs an int of 3 or better take take a feat not specifically called out in the CRB as an "Animal Feat". Improved Natural Armor and Improved Natural Attack are called in that section as available to companions.
IMO, that also fulfills the being granted by another legal source(the CRB) to take a Bestiary feat.
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CRB says Animal Companions can take Improved Natural Armor and Improved Natural attack. Those feats are also in the Bestiary. If you don't have the Bestiary you can always choose a different character option.This will likely just make the thread go longer, but in PFS, unless a feat from the Bestiary (like the two you name in the quote) is also printed in another PFS-legal source, you cannot take feats from the Bestiary.
To my knowledge, none of them are re-printed in another legal source, so Improved Nat Armor, Improved Nat Attack, Hover, Flyby Attack, etc cant be taken by animal companions, eidolons, familiars, mounts, or anything else.
I'll have to check out the latest Guide when I get home, to see what's been explicitly allowed in. Not that it affects anything I've already taken, but for future planning.
I thought the intent of the rule was to prevent PCs from taking inappropriate feats from the Bestiary, not their animals.The Bestiary feats ought to be more appropriate to animals, than some of the CRB feats, frankly.
But they don't want Fly-By Alchemists playing Dambusters, or Monks confusing everyone applying Improved Natural Attack to their fists. Half-Orcs with a bite attack that 'counts as Large bite'. etc.
Which I can understand.
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CRB says Animal Companions can take Improved Natural Armor and Improved Natural attack. Those feats are also in the Bestiary. If you don't have the Bestiary you can always choose a different character option.This will likely just make the thread go longer, but in PFS, unless a feat from the Bestiary (like the two you name in the quote) is also printed in another PFS-legal source, you cannot take feats from the Bestiary.
To my knowledge, none of them are re-printed in another legal source, so Improved Nat Armor, Improved Nat Attack, Hover, Flyby Attack, etc cant be taken by animal companions, eidolons, familiars, mounts, or anything else.
It is the access that needs to be printed in another source, not the entire feat.
Since the animal companion entry for Druid says they can take these feats, they can take those feats.
Because the Ranger Natural Attack specialist from either APG or UC (forget which) grants access to some Bestiary feats, they can take those feats.
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The Animal Companion doesn't have the intelligence to pick the feat, the PC/Player does... so therefore.... no.@Seth
1. Right you are. Sorry
2. Of course the player would still need to own the bestiary, but they should still be able to have their NPC friend pick feats that the CRB says they can take. Just because the a player can't pick these choices for their PC, doesn't mean that their NPC pet can't.
The Animal Companion only needs an int of 3 or better take take a feat not specifically called out in the CRB as an "Animal Feat". Improved Natural Armor and Improved Natural Attack are called in that section as available to companions.
IMO, that also fulfills the being granted by another legal source(the CRB) to take a Bestiary feat.
The way I interpreted his post (because that's all this thread is really about) is that the AC was the one that picked the feat not the PC and since the AC is an NPC therefore the AC could pick the feat out of the bestiary.
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@Step
Animal companions are NPCs so it is not the player taking a feat from the Bestiary.
Animal Companions are not NPCs. They are a class feature that sometimes are controlled by the GM, and sometimes by the player.
Per Ultimate Campaign: If they are non-sentient (Int 1 or 2) they are technically GM controlled. The character can try to direct the creature with Handle Animal, but the GM has final say on what the animal does.
If the Animal has a 3+ Int, it becomes fully Character controlled. So after level 4, it is likely that the animal will no longer be GM controlled at all.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Or the animal companion chooses some other feat. Skill Focus (Perform ( cute tricks)). After all, if it isn't the player's choice ...
I prefer Perform (Mime).
"Your bear would attack, but he appears to be trapped in an invisible box..."
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Or the animal companion chooses some other feat. Skill Focus (Perform ( cute tricks)). After all, if it isn't the player's choice ...I prefer Perform (Mime).
"Your bear would attack, but he appears to be trapped in an invisible box..."
Step 1: Cut a hole in the box
2: Put yo bear in that box3: Make her open the box
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Or the animal companion chooses some other feat. Skill Focus (Perform ( cute tricks)). After all, if it isn't the player's choice ...I prefer Perform (Mime).
"Your bear would attack, but he appears to be trapped in an invisible box..."
Step 1: Cut a hole in the box
2: Put yo bear in that box
3: Make her open the box
Crystalhue, bear in a box.
Evoking Day, bear in a box.Jestercap, bear in a box.
Every single holiday a bear in a box.
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So, seeing how long this thread was, I skipped from the first page to the last page without reading most of the thread. I'm having a hard time deciding which is sillier - the claim that you can use monster stats in PFS without owning the book that those stats come from, the claim that a player can force the GM to run their summoned critters, or the jokes about a bear with mime skills. Given the context, the mime bears just don't seem that silly.
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Or the animal companion chooses some other feat. Skill Focus (Perform ( cute tricks)). After all, if it isn't the player's choice ...I prefer Perform (Mime).
"Your bear would attack, but he appears to be trapped in an invisible box..."
Step 1: Cut a hole in the box
2: Put yo bear in that box
3: Make her open the boxCrystalhue, bear in a box.
Evoking Day, bear in a box.
Jestercap, bear in a box.
Every single holiday a bear in a box.
Woo! I can barely contain my excitement at this prospect!
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Woo! I can barely contain my excitement at this prospect!Or the animal companion chooses some other feat. Skill Focus (Perform ( cute tricks)). After all, if it isn't the player's choice ...I prefer Perform (Mime).
"Your bear would attack, but he appears to be trapped in an invisible box..."
Step 1: Cut a hole in the box
2: Put yo bear in that box
3: Make her open the boxCrystalhue, bear in a box.
Evoking Day, bear in a box.
Jestercap, bear in a box.
Every single holiday a bear in a box.
Hah! That was bad, Andrew, just bad. Way to be the bearer of bad jokes.
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Hah! That was bad, Andrew, just bad. Way to be the bearer of bad jokes.Woo! I can barely contain my excitement at this prospect!Or the animal companion chooses some other feat. Skill Focus (Perform ( cute tricks)). After all, if it isn't the player's choice ...I prefer Perform (Mime).
"Your bear would attack, but he appears to be trapped in an invisible box..."
Step 1: Cut a hole in the box
2: Put yo bear in that box
3: Make her open the boxCrystalhue, bear in a box.
Evoking Day, bear in a box.
Jestercap, bear in a box.
Every single holiday a bear in a box.
I get them from staring at the stars, specifically Ursa Major.
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I reserve the right to arm bears.
I also reserve the right to crash that Teddy Bear picnic in the woods.
Of course, if I armed the teddies, it might hurt...
What do you call a bear with a razor?
Sort of back on track (bacon is too fat, give me good BBQ ribs every time), the CRB gives ACs access to certain feats from the Bestiary. However, for the AC to be able to take any of those feats, the player who has the AC needs to have a copy of the Bestiary available in case the GM needs to verify the exact wording of any of those feats taken.
Now, it may be possible that the GM has that available, but, sometimes, she won't. I ran a sanctioned game the other day that only used the CRB and Bestiary 2 as sources for almost all the NPCs and critters. No need for the Bestiary then, huh...
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So, seeing how long this thread was, I skipped from the first page to the last page without reading most of the thread.I did basically the same. Read through the first 100 posts then fast forwarded to now.
How about some dinosaur puns for my Saurian Shaman?
Dinosaur jokes? Really? Those are SO last period.
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Sort of back on track (bacon is too fat, give me good BBQ ribs every time), the CRB gives ACs access to certain feats from the Bestiary. However, for the AC to be able to take any of those feats, the player who has the AC needs to have a copy of the Bestiary available in case the GM needs to verify the exact wording of any of those feats taken.Now, it may be possible that the GM has that available, but, sometimes, she won't. I ran a sanctioned game the other day that only used the CRB and Bestiary 2 as sources for almost all the NPCs and critters. No need for the Bestiary then, huh...
Oh, are we going back on topic?
The Bestiary isn't actually required for every GM to bring to the table. It's just that the prd is core assumption for GMs, so they can prepare the specific adventure they're running that day. I almost always bring the scenario with printouts of the relevant Bestiary pages, but not the whole Bestiary.
So yes, anyone who wants to use monster stats that are found in the Bestiary must actually own the Bestiary, per PFS rules. I'm not the type to enforce ownership rules at the table, but you'd better be prepared in case you meet a GM who does. I know I always carry the relevant Bestiary pages, with correct pdf watermark, for my summoning focused PC.