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So you *are* saying you do not allow players to cast animate object and animate plant unless they bring a bestiary to the table? And you do not allow Druids to wildshape?
No, i will not allow this. Since they do not have the resource they are trying to use. New players are only exception to this rule. They do not know what is or is not expected.
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Or to take the example up thread, do you also ban animate plant, animate object, and animate dead? All of these reference the bestiary. For that matter, do you just say "sorry, you can't play a druid unless you own bestiary, one of your class features can't be used without it."
Why would anyone even attempt to play a druid, or an animating Necromancer, without owning a Bestiary?
It just baffles me.It's like they were deliberately trying to cause confusion and delay the game.
Plus, all the examples there are unlocked after several levels (wild shape seems to be the earliest at level 4). This isn't a new player, trying out the game, who's never read the Field Guide, but promises to do so when they get home.
This would have to be someone with at least 9 games under their belt, who's repeatedly resisted buying a $10 pdf, or doing any prep work for a class that is all about summoning a wide variety of creatures and morphing their own body in numerous ways.
What kind of player would deliberately pick one of the most prep-heavy classes in the game, then sit back and tell the GM "That's your problem. Fix it."
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Or to take the example up thread, do you also ban animate plant, animate object, and animate dead? All of these reference the bestiary. For that matter, do you just say "sorry, you can't play a druid unless you own bestiary, one of your class features can't be used without it."Why would anyone even attempt to play a druid, or an animating Necromancer, without owning a Bestiary?
It just baffles me.
It's like they were deliberately trying to cause confusion and delay the game.Plus, all the examples there are unlocked after several levels (wild shape seems to be the earliest at level 4). This isn't a new player, trying out the game, who's never read the Field Guide, but promises to do so when they get home.
This would have to be someone with at least 9 games under their belt, who's repeatedly resisted buying a $10 pdf, or doing any prep work for a class that is all about summoning a wide variety of creatures and morphing their own body in numerous ways.
What kind of player would deliberately pick one of the most prep-heavy classes in the game, then sit back and tell the GM "That's your problem. Fix it."
What about a familar? Wizards get those at level 1. Brand new, out of the box.
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What about a familar? Wizards get those at level 1. Brand new, out of the box.Or to take the example up thread, do you also ban animate plant, animate object, and animate dead? All of these reference the bestiary. For that matter, do you just say "sorry, you can't play a druid unless you own bestiary, one of your class features can't be used without it."Why would anyone even attempt to play a druid, or an animating Necromancer, without owning a Bestiary?
It just baffles me.
It's like they were deliberately trying to cause confusion and delay the game.Plus, all the examples there are unlocked after several levels (wild shape seems to be the earliest at level 4). This isn't a new player, trying out the game, who's never read the Field Guide, but promises to do so when they get home.
This would have to be someone with at least 9 games under their belt, who's repeatedly resisted buying a $10 pdf, or doing any prep work for a class that is all about summoning a wide variety of creatures and morphing their own body in numerous ways.
What kind of player would deliberately pick one of the most prep-heavy classes in the game, then sit back and tell the GM "That's your problem. Fix it."
Your point being?
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Your point being?What about a familar? Wizards get those at level 1. Brand new, out of the box.Or to take the example up thread, do you also ban animate plant, animate object, and animate dead? All of these reference the bestiary. For that matter, do you just say "sorry, you can't play a druid unless you own bestiary, one of your class features can't be used without it."Why would anyone even attempt to play a druid, or an animating Necromancer, without owning a Bestiary?
It just baffles me.
It's like they were deliberately trying to cause confusion and delay the game.Plus, all the examples there are unlocked after several levels (wild shape seems to be the earliest at level 4). This isn't a new player, trying out the game, who's never read the Field Guide, but promises to do so when they get home.
This would have to be someone with at least 9 games under their belt, who's repeatedly resisted buying a $10 pdf, or doing any prep work for a class that is all about summoning a wide variety of creatures and morphing their own body in numerous ways.
What kind of player would deliberately pick one of the most prep-heavy classes in the game, then sit back and tell the GM "That's your problem. Fix it."
That a brand spanking new player can run into this...something snorter is saying can't happen.
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This just getting stupid.
The rules state: to use a resource to HAVE to own a legal copy of the book you are trying to use. Whether it be you have a cool spell, class ability, or pet, you still have to own a copy of the resource.
This has been stated over and over again. If you want to be cheap and not own a copy of the resource you are trying to use, that's fine. But expect some GMs to turn you down.
Cold Naplam I see you have a star by your name, so you have at least GMd 10 times. It is your right as a GM to turn down non legal sources. Whether you choose to enforce this at your table that is your decision.
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That a brand spanking new player can run into this...something snorter is saying can't happen.Your point being?What about a familar? Wizards get those at level 1. Brand new, out of the box.Or to take the example up thread, do you also ban animate plant, animate object, and animate dead? All of these reference the bestiary. For that matter, do you just say "sorry, you can't play a druid unless you own bestiary, one of your class features can't be used without it."Why would anyone even attempt to play a druid, or an animating Necromancer, without owning a Bestiary?
It just baffles me.
It's like they were deliberately trying to cause confusion and delay the game.Plus, all the examples there are unlocked after several levels (wild shape seems to be the earliest at level 4). This isn't a new player, trying out the game, who's never read the Field Guide, but promises to do so when they get home.
This would have to be someone with at least 9 games under their belt, who's repeatedly resisted buying a $10 pdf, or doing any prep work for a class that is all about summoning a wide variety of creatures and morphing their own body in numerous ways.
What kind of player would deliberately pick one of the most prep-heavy classes in the game, then sit back and tell the GM "That's your problem. Fix it."
So as a GM, you educate the brand new player. 9 times out of 10, that brand new 1st level Wizard is not going to send his familiar into a situation where stats are necessary. They keep the toad in their pocket.
But you indicate that if they want to use their Toad in combat (which in and of itself is a silly proposition) they need the Bestiary.
Typically, if they have a character sheet built for the Toad (there are many character sheets out there you can google that will be build specifically for a familiar or companion and Hero Lab does a good job of creating a familiar or companion character sheet), and it seems legit, I'm probably not going to ask to see their Bestiary. I'm going to trust that they are legit.
But if they pull out some crazy feat or ability and they don't have the source for it, then they won't be able to use it without the source.
And if that source is the Bestiary, then sorry, you can't use your Familiar without it.
But yeah, you can come up with all the corner cases you want. It still doesn't change the fact that you need to have the Bestiary to have companions, familiars, or summon creatures.
Besides, a Wizard is probably not a great class for a brand new to Pathfinder or even roleplaying player.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Note that under these rules, at least one of the pregen characters pretty much can't be played by any player who does not own a bestiary.
That's a good point. In the same way that the Gunslinger pre-gen provides all the rules for the character, the Druid pre-gen might provide a handful of common nature's allies and animal forms.
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That a brand spanking new player can run into this...something snorter is saying can't happen.
I referred to the examples of wildshape, animate plants, animate dead, and animate objects, all of which would only apply to a PC of level 4+.
I never said 1st-level druids wouldn't need statblocks for their summons, nor that 1st-level wizards/sorcerers wouldn't need stats for their familiars.
They will. And several GMs have said they'd give the benefit of the doubt to a new player, coming to their first Organised Play event. They'd pass them a statcard, ask another player to help them share a Bestiary, or do something to ease them into Society play.
The Lini pregen already includes Companion stats. Should a link be provided to download the first level Natures Allies? That would alleviate a perceived problem.
After the game, they'd talk to the new player, explain what materials are required, and advise them what to bring next time.
If getting these resources is expensive or tricky, they don't have to play the same PC next time they play. Play something vanilla, with Core Rulebook abilities only.
When they get a Bestiary, they can pick up their druid where they left off.
That's a world away from a player with at least 9 games under their belt, who's still turning up with nothing, and giving the GM the metaphorical stinkeye. "Yeah, I'm wildshaping. No I ain't got no Bestiary. What you gonna do about it?"
Nor is it an excuse for a player who's a veteran of PFS, on their fifth PC, who knows what's expected of them, and still brings a 1st-level druid with no Bestiary to back themselves up.
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So as a GM, you educate the brand new player. 9 times out of 10, that brand new 1st level Wizard is not going to send his familiar into a situation where stats are necessary. They keep the toad in their pocket.But you indicate that if they want to use their Toad in combat (which in and of itself is a silly proposition) they need the Bestiary.
Typically, if they have a character sheet built for the Toad (there are many character sheets out there you can google that will be build specifically for a familiar or companion and Hero Lab does a...
Not saying that is is COMMON...but snorter was making it sound like it could NEVER happen...which also is not the case.
And while a wizard may not be new player friendly class...that does not mean the no new player will want to play one. I know MANY new players who start off with a wizard because they like that trope (it's a popular one). And yes I realize that not even the most avid die hard must own bestiary supporters are in all likelyhood gonna turn away a brand new player with a wizard with a familiar who wants to summon stuff from their table or not let them do their stuff for the first few games. I am sure (or hope at least) you all help the new player do his thing and have fun. That said, I am all for reducing the strain on players. Too much of this is bad for players...especially new players. I don't like this whole draconian must carry everything bit (and listen, I carry ALL my hardbacks...okay not the RotRL...with me to game...player or GM...and will continue to do so...but not everyone is me) as it is a turn off for not a small number of players (like ones who bike to locals, or walk, or have a bad back, or is in a cast for a broken bone, or a slew of other things).
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If you follow Cold Napalm's and your reasoning, since the hardcovers are also part of the GM core assumption (since version 4 of the guide,) players would not need to own the Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Magic, or Ultimate Combat to use options from those books, either. If Bestiary = Core Assumption (for GMs) therefore I can summon monsters without bringing the Bestiary, then Ultimate Magic = Core Assumption (for GMs) therefore I can play a Magus without bringing Ultimate Magic follows logically. And that's certainly not the case.The assumption that GMs have access to all Bestiaries and the hardcovers is there to allow scenario writers to use options from those books when designing scenarios. It's explicitly called out that GMs can use the PRD so that it doesn't become a barrier, narrowing the potential GM pool to people who own all the hardcovers. Maybe they could word it better when they mention...
Umm...no. I was going off what was listed on the additional resources page at the top...which mentions just 3 books. Those are core assumption...everything else is additional resources.
Note that under these rules, at least one of the pregen characters pretty much can't be played by any player who does not own a bestiary.
This amuses me.
You might as well just require the bestiary + CRB to play PFS.
You can't use a good portion of the CRB without referencing the bestiary.
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It's a simple concept. If you bring the resource to the table, you bring the rules needed to run it. GMs bring the resources for the mod. Players bring resources for the PCs.
In LG, I used to bring printouts of SNA and SM I and II, augmented and not, along with a link to a file with all the stats for the spells. I'd hand 'em out to new players and give them the link for future use.
I generally don't get worked up about who has the source at a table or if it meets an exact format. I try to provide those things for my PCs and keep 'em simple to accommodate my willingness to tote stuff. I honor those who do enforce those rules and don't create conflict when enforcing them. If I'm unprepared, I use other resources.
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I disagree. Out of the CRB the only abilities that would require a bestiary are summon spells, and animal companions.
Agreed. I've played 6 PFS characters (wizard, paladin, rogue, fighter, cleric, and bard), with a total of 24 levels across them, and have never had call to use the Bestiary for any of them. Honestly, I didn't even own a copy of the Bestiary until I started GMing PFS games.
Granted, in the cases of the wizard and the paladin, I chose options which did not require using the Bestiary (Arcane Bond on a staff, and Divine Bond on a sword, instead of a familiar and a mount, respectively), and I chose to not take / use summon monster spells with the wizard and the cleric, but I don't feel that those were suboptimal choices in the slightest.
For a small number of classes (druid, probably summoner and cavalier), the Bestiary is pretty much a must-have. For a few more (paladin, wizard, etc.), it's needed if you take certain class options, or want to cast certain spells. For the rest, it's probably completely irrelevant.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I disagree. Out of the CRB the only abilities that would require a bestiary are summon spells, and animal companions. Are you trying to say that a viable character cannot be built without these features?Note that under these rules, at least one of the pregen characters pretty much can't be played by any player who does not own a bestiary.This amuses me.
You might as well just require the bestiary + CRB to play PFS.
You can't use a good portion of the CRB without referencing the bestiary.
Actually, you don't need a bestiary for animal companions. Their stats are in the CRB (at least for the basic choices there.)
you do need bestiary to:
take a familiar
cast about 18 spells (yes, I counted, Ctrl+F is your friend)
Own a horse or pony. (Unless you are a paladin)
Wildshape
Summon
Animate
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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It's a simple concept. If you bring the resource to the table, you bring the rules needed to run it. GMs bring the resources for the mod. Players bring resources for the PCs.
In LG, I used to bring printouts of SNA and SM I and II, augmented and not, along with a link to a file with all the stats for the spells. I'd hand 'em out to new players and give them the link for future use.
I generally don't get worked up about who has the source at a table or if it meets an exact format. I try to provide those things for my PCs and keep 'em simple to accommodate my willingness to tote stuff. I honor those who do enforce those rules and don't create conflict when enforcing them. If I'm unprepared, I use other resources.
I think the problem is that people are saying that you cannot print those out and give them to players to use except at your own table. And paizo is very worked up right now about people having the exact format they specify.
I disagree. Out of the CRB the only abilities that would require a bestiary are summon spells, and animal companions. Are you trying to say that a viable character cannot be built without these features?Note that under these rules, at least one of the pregen characters pretty much can't be played by any player who does not own a bestiary.This amuses me.
You might as well just require the bestiary + CRB to play PFS.
You can't use a good portion of the CRB without referencing the bestiary.
Actually, you don't need a bestiary for animal companions. Their stats are in the CRB (at least for the basic choices there.)
you do need bestiary to:
take a familiar
cast about 18 spells (yes, I counted, Ctrl+F is your friend)
Own a horse or pony. (Unless you are a paladin)
Wildshape
Summon
Animate
Yes. Which one of my buddies is concerned that you can't use class features like the familiar without owning what is primarily a GM tool (bestiary).
Likewise this discussion has not done anything to convince them that PFS is something they wish to do.
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If you want to expand the pregen downloads, to include the low level companions and Natures Ally statblocks, then go add a favourite and an FAQ request, on the page HERE.
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Thank you for the correction, but my point still stands. Those are still a minority of the options available.
Actually, you don't need a bestiary for animal companions. Their stats are in the CRB (at least for the basic choices there.)
you do need bestiary to:
take a familiar
cast about 18 spells (yes, I counted, Ctrl+F is your friend)
Own a horse or pony. (Unless you are a paladin)
Wildshape
Summon
Animate
A LOT of subsection of the CRB is a minority of options. That book is HUGE. What is key is that this is not a small or insignificant segment of the rules.
You can't own a mule without the bestiary.
Can't train animals without owning a bestiary.
Really ever class is limited in the CRB and is unable to use certain rules stated in the CRB without owning a bestiary. Might want to include that in the core assumptions and require ownership.
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I would like to ask the question in this thread, is requiring the Beastiary 1 to play the average Wizard or Druid conducive to the point of PFS?
Now, keeping in mind that Paizo's little experiment here is in order to increase their bottom line, I believe requiring owning the Beastiary for the average Wizard/Druid is a little off-putting. To the GMs who adamantly require additional resources for these classes, haven't any of your players often been off put by the even higher barrier to entry? Particularly because by playing PFS many people, myself included, want to support their FLGS, and thus don't want to burn them by buying the PDF. A hard copy of the Beastiary 1 is a serious chunk of change. Increasing the barrier to entry is definitely a bad thing for PFS, it is a real cost against the benefit of more players buying Beastiary 1. I've seen many new players taught that all you really need to play PFS out of the box is the CRB and a free online PDF. But for some classes this simply is not true. I'm not asking whether or not you need the Beastiary, I'm asking whether or not that's a good thing. I believe it isn't, as I've personally informed a few druids that eventually they will require the Beastiary 1 to really play one of the most appealing things about their class.
And even beyond that, new players aren't really told they need to have the Beastiary 1 to play that aspect of their class. I wouldn't be surprised to see many just print out stat blocks from the PRD or some other source. We really need a disclaimer somewhere to explain when you would need the Beastiary 1, even if you're using base CRB classes.
Tl;Dr: I think that requiring the Beastiary 1 for certain, well loved base class features is bad for the growth of society, and is a cost to consider weighing against the people who buy the Beastiary to play those characters.
Unlike other additional resources, the Bestiary is required to use rules in the CRB.
The Bestiary itself doesn't have the rules it is required for to use. This is very off-putting, after spending $60 on the CRB to find out that I can't use all the rules in the CRB without buying supplementary material.
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I don't believe that players playing a Wizard need to buy the Bestiary, Kurthnaga.
If you do not want to use an arcane bonded object, $11 will get you the Animal Archive.
That is true and something I didn't think of. And I don't believe I said they need it. I said the average Wizard will need access to the Familiar stat blocks, because a bunch of new players think that an animal that helps you cast spells is cooler than a special item. But good catch on the AA.
What do you think about putting out a PSA of some sort informing new players what they can use as additional resources for their familiars/summons/wildshapes, one beyond individual GM input. I'm struggling to think of a way to do this other than making the rules enforcement even more strict, especially when there should be some trust between players and GMs. I do not expect to have to bring the Beastiary from home, as in my mind stat blocks will do. But the new players may have no idea they need anything more than the core. Can we do anything besides have the GMs address this at a more local level?
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I don't believe that players playing a Wizard need to buy the Bestiary, Kurthnaga.
If you do not want to use an arcane bonded object, $11 will get you the Animal Archive.
Nope. Sorry, AA doesn't have the stat blocks for familiars.
As far as I can recall it doesn't have stat blocks for any animal. I was under the same impression. I thought I needed Ultimate Equipment to buy my mount, so I bought that. Then I realized the animal I wanted wasn't in there, so I bought animal archive to buy my mount. Then I found out that while the price of my mount was in AA, the stat block for it was in Bestiary. So I had to buy 3 books just to get my mount. (UE for the exotic saddle, AA for the price, B3 for the stat block.)
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I don't believe that players playing a Wizard need to buy the Bestiary, Kurthnaga.
If you do not want to use an arcane bonded object, $11 will get you the Animal Archive.
Nope. Sorry, AA doesn't have the stat blocks for familiars.
As far as I can recall it doesn't have stat blocks for any animal. I was under the same impression. I thought I needed Ultimate Equipment to buy my mount, so I bought that. Then I realized the animal I wanted wasn't in there, so I bought animal archive to buy my mount. Then I found out that while the price of my mount was in AA, the stat block for it was in Bestiary. So I had to buy 3 books just to get my mount. (UE for the exotic saddle, AA for the price, B3 for the stat block.)
AA has the stat blocks for Armadillo, Platypus, Rabbit and Squirrel familiars.
Venture-Agent, Virginia—Hampton Roads
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Unlike other additional resources, the Bestiary is required to use rules in the CRB.
The Bestiary itself doesn't have the rules it is required for to use. This is very off-putting, after spending $60 on the CRB to find out that I can't use all the rules in the CRB without buying supplementary material.
This is not an accurate statement. You can play easily only using the CRB and avoid the need of the Bestiary.
Classes such as fighters, barbarians, monk, and rogues don't really have any need for the Bestiary to play the class.
Heck you can play a wizard just fine by just avoiding Summon Monster "X" spells and take arcane bond and stay in the CRB.
If players cannot afford to obtain legal sources of material it is not the responsibility of others to provide the means especially the GM.
Unlike other additional resources, the Bestiary is required to use rules in the CRB.
The Bestiary itself doesn't have the rules it is required for to use. This is very off-putting, after spending $60 on the CRB to find out that I can't use all the rules in the CRB without buying supplementary material.
This is not an accurate statement. You can play easily only using the CRB and avoid the need of the Bestiary.
Classes such as fighters, barbarians, monk, and rogues don't really have any need for the Bestiary to play the class.
Heck you can play a wizard just fine by just avoiding Summon Monster "X" spells and take arcane bond and stay in the CRB.
If players cannot afford to obtain legal sources of material it is not the responsibility of others to provide the means especially the GM.
That does not mean the Bestiary isn't required to use rules in the CRB.
Just because I can avoid those rules while playing a character, does not mean the rules I am avoiding are in the Bestiary.
Familiars, summons, wildshape, 9 other spells, half of the handle animal rules, owning a mule or a horse, using ride as a fighter
The list goes on and on. None of those rules are in the Bestiary, but I would still need the Bestiary to use those rules.
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Venture-Agent, Virginia—Hampton Roads
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That does not mean the Bestiary isn't required to use rules in the CRB.Just because I can avoid those rules while playing a character, does not mean the rules I am avoiding are in the Bestiary.
Familiars, summons, wildshape, 9 other spells, half of the handle animal rules, owning a mule or a horse, using ride as a fighter
The list goes on and on. None of those rules are in the Bestiary, but I would still need the Bestiary to use those rules.
True but if you have limits in obtaining books / PDF's you have options to work around this limitation.
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You can't own a mule without the bestiary.
Can't train animals without owning a bestiary.
Really ever class is limited in the CRB and is unable to use certain rules stated in the CRB without owning a bestiary. Might want to include that in the core assumptions and require ownership.
That does not mean the Bestiary isn't required to use rules in the CRB.
Just because I can avoid those rules while playing a character, does not mean the rules I am avoiding are in the Bestiary.
Familiars, summons, wildshape, 9 other spells, half of the handle animal rules, owning a mule or a horse, using ride as a fighter
The list goes on and on. None of those rules are in the Bestiary, but I would still need the Bestiary to use those rules.
I'm confused now. You were arguing early in the thread about how unfair it was that you had to buy another book. Now you're saying that everyone should have the book, meaning you're forcing everyone to buy it, including the ones who don't want to use the spells, class features, and whatever else you might need the bestiary for. If you buy a mule, you don't need the bestiary unless you ride it into battle - if it's a pack animal and its stats aren't necessary, then you don't need the book that has them.
Make no mistake: "The Bestiary is part of the Core Assumption" does not mean "You don't have to own it to use it."
"The Bestiary is part of the Core Assumption" means "If you play PFS, you must purchase the Bestiary."
[[edit: I may be mistaken about your original stance. I thought you had argued that it shouldn't be necessary to own the book, but on a quick review after the fact, it seems you have only ever been asking for clarification as to whether it was needed or not. If I've misrepresented your original argument, I apologize.]]