| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Both Summing and polymorph are spells in the CRB.
Let's say a player has only the CRB, but doesn't own a bestiary. Can they use polymorph? Can they summon?
Now summons are technically NPCs. If you tell that player that they can't summon because he doesn't own the bestiary, can he not respond that he owns the CRB with the summon monster spells and since summons are NPCs that you as the GM can run them, since he can't?
So let's say I want to play a summon focused caster in PFS, but do not own a bestiary. Can I play this character sanely, referencing the monster stats using other sources? Or do would I need to make the GM run all the monsters as NPCs, increasing his workload?
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you are going to summon or use a spell that references a stat block in another book, you should have either the book or the stat blocks for the monsters.
Don't increase the GMs workload.
Personally if you're at my table and you want to summon a monster that you don't have the stat block for then you will need to pick another creature to summon, if you don't have the stat block for any of them on the summon list then it looks like you won't be using that spell.
I have the bestiarys on pdf on my tablet for me to be able to access when needed for NPC monsters. Being as the tablet cost a fair penny I'm not willing to loan it out. The PRD is only available at the table for the GM to use and per the official documentation is not available for player use, the player still needs to have the resource documentation.
Here's the situation.
1) I will have all the stats and rules needed to run the summons clean and efficiently.
2) I will not have a bestiary. I do own a CRB.
Do I have to disregard my prep work because I do not own a bestiary and force the GM to run my monsters?
|
|
Here's the situation.
1) I will have all the stats and rules needed to run the summons clean and efficiently.
2) I will not have a bestiary. I do own a CRB.
Do I have to disregard my prep work because I do not own a bestiary and force the GM to run my monsters?
I can't and won't speak for other GMs on this, I'll only let you know how this would work at my table.
If the stat blocks are from a reputable source, then I would allow them. If they are not or cannot be verified somehow then I would tell you to pick another spell, I would not run your summoned monsters on top of my own and there is no way that you would be able to *force* me to.
Honestly your best bet is to get the bestiary, even if you get the PDF and print out the pages that you need, still better than betting on a GM being nice enough to add to their workload because you won't want to be bothered to buy a bestiary
Correct me if I am wrong, but a player is allowed to use rules that they own and are legal in PFS.
The CRB contains summon monster. As a player I can use the rules in that book.
It is a convenience to the game for the player to run their own monster, but it is not technically legal. Summons are NPCs.
If you tell a player they can't do something they can as stated in the rules and PFS guidelines, can they not report you to someone in charge? It wouldn't do anything for that session, but as a GM you would be breaking the rules.
Not to be a dick, but for any GM that wouldn't allow a player to use monster stat blocks because they do not own a bestiary, I feel that an equal amount of rules lawyering is called for.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Correct me if I am wrong, but a player is allowed to use rules that they own and are legal in PFS.
That is correct, however, you have to have the resource document for the item/shiney that you want to use.
The CRB contains summon monster. As a player I can use the rules in that book.
Correct, however, how do you intend to run the monster that you summon? the CRB does not include stat blocks.
It is a convenience to the game for the player to run their own monster, but it is not technically legal. Summons are NPCs.
So you're telling me, that as a curtosey to the GM you might decide to play the monster you summon, but in reality you want to play a lazy character and essentially have the GM run your character for you? What's the point of even playing then?
If you tell a player they can't do something they can as stated in the rules and PFS guidelines, can they not report you to someone in charge? It wouldn't do anything for that session, but as a GM you would be breaking the rules.
Not to be a dick, but for any GM that wouldn't allow a player to use monster stat blocks because they do not own a bestiary, I feel that an equal amount of rules lawyering is called for.
By all means, report me to Mike Brock for refusing to run your character on top of running the game. I don't have a problem with you doing that. In fact, feel free to report me for what I'm staying in this thread.
The fact of the matter remains, that the onus to provide the stat blocks for summoned creatures falls on the player not the GM. FYI in the time that you've spent trying to *force* GMs to run your character you could have bought, downloaded and printed the stat blocks from the PDF of the Bestiary.
Not to be a dick (using your words) but perhaps if you're going to play the game then you should choose to play your own character and provide the resources necessary to play the character and not rely on the GM to do your work for you. I guarantee that there are very few, if any at all GMs that will run your summoned creatures, they are instead more likely to tell you that you need to have the stat block for the creatures and since you don't you'll need to pick a different spell for that game.
The CRB gives you access to the spell, but you still need to have the stat blocks for the creatures. Plain and Simple.
|
So you're telling me, that as a curtosey to the GM you might decide to play the monster you summon, but in reality you want to play a lazy character and essentially have the GM run your character for you? What's the point of even playing then?
Okay...I'll bite. How is running a SUMMONED MONSTER WHICH IS AN NPC playing the person's CHARACTER?!? I think you lost this one when you jumped to that hyperbole. Sorry mate, you just checkmated yourself.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Okay...I'll bite. How is running a SUMMONED MONSTER WHICH IS AN NPC playing the person's CHARACTER?!? I think you lost this one when you jumped to that hyperbole. Sorry mate, you just checkmated yourself.
So you're telling me, that as a curtosey to the GM you might decide to play the monster you summon, but in reality you want to play a lazy character and essentially have the GM run your character for you? What's the point of even playing then?
If he is playing a summoning heavy class and refuses to run the summoned creature and instead is requiring the GM to run the summoned creature how is that not essentially playing his character?
If all his character can do is summon, and I'm running the summoned creature then what is he doing?
FYI summoned creatures are not NPC.. they are summoned creatures.
I guess my issue is that I am perfectly willing to do the legwork needed to run summons, but I feel cheated that I can't use rules that I own without buying another book.
I own the CRB and want to use summon monster. I want to use and control the monsters. I don't want to buy another book to be able to cast a spell in a book I already own.
If a GM demands I have a bestiary to use summon monster, a spell from a book that I own. I can easily turn it around and have the GM run my summons for me as the NPCs that they are. I don't want to do this, but you as the GM would be forcing to do that if I want to make use of the rules I bought in the CRB.
|
|
Marthkus: You summon Monster X, but you don't have the stat block for Monster X.
GM is busy running EVERY NPC and monster in the scenario or module.
Are you saying that you are unwilling to spend $10 for the PDF for the Bestiary, which is all you would need, in order to use your spell?
Note: If you run a Druid, but you want an AC that is statted out in the Bestiary, but not the CRB, can you take it?
Answer: No. You do not have the Additional Resource needed to show the GM the rules for your AC.
To be honest, while spells are included in the CRB, not all the resources to use every spell is included in the CRB.
Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally are two of the spell families that require having another resource, the Bestiary, available to use.
Edit: Added:
If a GM demands I have a bestiary to use summon monster, a spell from a book that I own. I can easily turn it around and have the GM run my summons for me as the NPCs that they are. I don't want to do this, but you as the GM would be forcing to do that if I want to make use of the rules I bought in the CRB.
No, you can't turn it around, because most GMs will tell you to get the Bestiary or take a hike.
As a GM, I want players who want to play the game, not make my life miserable. If, instead, you insist that I stat out and run your monsters for you, I will refuse, and kick you from my table, as you are breaking the "Don't Be a Jerk" rule, and taking precious game time away from the other players at the table.
For $10, and a few cents in paper and toner/ink, you save everyone at the table precious time and energy. You keep the printouts of the monsters in the binder with your summoning PC, all done and ready for several games, until you get a higher level summoning spell.
TL, DR: Don't be a jerk, spend the $10 to get yourself a PDF of the Bestiary, then spend a few cents on paper and ink/toner to print out the stat blocks for the creatures you most commonly summon.
|
|
I guess my issue is that I am perfectly willing to do the legwork needed to run summons, but I feel cheated that I can't use rules that I own without buying another book.
I own the CRB and want to use summon monster. I want to use and control the monsters. I don't want to buy another book to be able to cast a spell in a book I already own.
If a GM demands I have a bestiary to use summon monster, a spell from a book that I own. I can easily turn it around and have the GM run my summons for me as the NPCs that they are. I don't want to do this, but you as the GM would be forcing to do that if I want to make use of the rules I bought in the CRB.
I can guarentee that at my table I would not be running your summoned creatures... they are not NPCS (please let us be clear on that distinction).
I can understand not wanting to buy another book in order to use the spell. If you do some google searches you'll find that people have created summmoned monster stat blocks -- I have used some of them myself for my own summoner.
However, If you show up at my table without stat blocks and only the spell, I'm sorry but you won't be able to use the spell. As the GM I already have enough on the table to run w/out adding your summoned creatures onto my plate.
|
|
Okay...I'll bite. How is running a SUMMONED MONSTER WHICH IS AN NPC playing the person's CHARACTER?!? I think you lost this one when you jumped to that hyperbole. Sorry mate, you just checkmated yourself.
So you're telling me, that as a curtosey to the GM you might decide to play the monster you summon, but in reality you want to play a lazy character and essentially have the GM run your character for you? What's the point of even playing then?
If he is playing a summoning heavy class and refuses to run the summoned creature and instead is requiring the GM to run the summoned creature how is that not essentially playing his character?
If all his character can do is summon, and I'm running the summoned creature then what is he doing?
FYI summoned creatures are not NPC.. they are summoned creatures.
Did he mention he is using a summon heavy character or is that just an assumption on your part? You CAN cast summon monster spells without being focused on doing that you know.
Summoner monsters are creatures yes? Are they PLAYER character or NONE PLAYER characters? Do summoned monsters get a character sheet each time they are summoned in your games? Because they sure as hell don't in mine. PC and NPC is an one or the other option. There is no third option here.
|
|
Okay...I'll bite. How is running a SUMMONED MONSTER WHICH IS AN NPC playing the person's CHARACTER?!? I think you lost this one when you jumped to that hyperbole. Sorry mate, you just checkmated yourself.
So you're telling me, that as a curtosey to the GM you might decide to play the monster you summon, but in reality you want to play a lazy character and essentially have the GM run your character for you? What's the point of even playing then?
If he is playing a summoning heavy class and refuses to run the summoned creature and instead is requiring the GM to run the summoned creature how is that not essentially playing his character?
If all his character can do is summon, and I'm running the summoned creature then what is he doing?
FYI summoned creatures are not NPC.. they are summoned creatures.
Did he mention he is using a summon heavy character or is that just an assumption on your part? You CAN cast summon monster spells without being focused on doing that you know.
Summoner monsters are creatures yes? Are they PLAYER character or NONE PLAYER characters? Do summoned monsters get a character sheet each time they are summoned in your games? Because they sure as hell don't in mine. PC and NPC is an one or the other option. There is no third option here.
Read his first few posts ... he wants to create a character that is summon heavy.
They are summoned, so no they don't get a character sheet... kinda weird to even have to have this portion of the conversation. I've never heard or seen anyone ever ever think of summoned creatures as NPCs and something the GM should run. I don't think there is any reason to explore that line of conversation anymore as it's a moot point.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not to nit pick, but i was always under the impression that summoned monsters were clearly npc that in most cases were run by the players as a covenience to speed up game play.
That said, im not sure how his " i own the crb, i can write down all the monster stats do i need to spend money on the beastiary to use the spells" question turned into accusations of being lazy and expecting the dm to do all the work?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So...this is all moot.
In order to utilize content from an Additional Resource, a player must have a physical copy of the Additional Resource in question, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of it, or a printout of the relevant pages from it, as well as a copy of the current version of the Additional Resources list. (If you're bringing a printout of the pages, it must be from the actual Paizo PDF and not text copied and pasted into a blank word processing document). Since the core assumption for Pathfinder Society Organized Play is the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide, and the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, we cannot assume that every Game Master will have the products listed below. As such, it's up to players to bring these items in order to familiarize their Game Masters with the rules.
The bestiary is part of core assumption. So...to the OP, just bring the PRD print out (or look up using phone/tablet) of whatever monsters you wanna summon and have at it.
|
I guess my issue is that I am perfectly willing to do the legwork needed to run summons, but I feel cheated that I can't use rules that I own without buying another book.
I own the CRB and want to use summon monster. I want to use and control the monsters. I don't want to buy another book to be able to cast a spell in a book I already own.
If a GM demands I have a bestiary to use summon monster, a spell from a book that I own. I can easily turn it around and have the GM run my summons for me as the NPCs that they are. I don't want to do this, but you as the GM would be forcing to do that if I want to make use of the rules I bought in the CRB.
So what happens when the GM doesn't bring a bestiary? You do something with your summoned monster that doesn't sound right to the GM and the GM wants to know how you did it. How are you showing that you're correct? Personal-made cheat sheets can be wrong.
I also have a summoning character. I created a whole subsection of my character wiki for summoned creatures. When playing Goblin Attack, I found out that I had the stats for dogs wrong because I had accidentally copied their AC down as their hit points. (How it took me until after the third encounter to catch this, I have no clue.) People make mistakes, and that's fine. In order to correct these mistakes, PFS requires that the source be available at the table.
By all means, create aides to help you summon in a timely manner. In fact, you should so that your summoning doesn't take forever. The GM and the rest of the table will certainly like the fact that you came prepared and ready to go. Even if the your summon aides are entirely correct, the Bestiary is the proof that you're right in case there are arguments. Because without proof, who knows if you grabbed the right stat block from online?
|
|
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So...this is all moot.
In order to utilize content from an Additional Resource, a player must have a physical copy of the Additional Resource in question, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of it, or a printout of the relevant pages from it, as well as a copy of the current version of the Additional Resources list. (If you're bringing a printout of the pages, it must be from the actual Paizo PDF and not text copied and pasted into a blank word processing document). Since the core assumption for Pathfinder Society Organized Play is the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide, and the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, we cannot assume that every Game Master will have the products listed below. As such, it's up to players to bring these items in order to familiarize their Game Masters with the rules.The bestiary is part of core assumption. So...to the OP, just bring the PRD print out (or look up using phone/tablet) of whatever monsters you wanna summon and have at it.
That page hasn't been updated since the new Guide was posted. The Core Assumption has changed.
Pathfinder Society Organized Play assumes that every
player has the following resources.
• Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook
• Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play (this document)
In other news, they should probably change that part of Additional Resources...
|
|
So...this is all moot.
In order to utilize content from an Additional Resource, a player must have a physical copy of the Additional Resource in question, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of it, or a printout of the relevant pages from it, as well as a copy of the current version of the Additional Resources list. (If you're bringing a printout of the pages, it must be from the actual Paizo PDF and not text copied and pasted into a blank word processing document). Since the core assumption for Pathfinder Society Organized Play is the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide, and the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, we cannot assume that every Game Master will have the products listed below. As such, it's up to players to bring these items in order to familiarize their Game Masters with the rules.The bestiary is part of core assumption. So...to the OP, just bring the PRD print out (or look up using phone/tablet) of whatever monsters you wanna summon and have at it.That page hasn't been updated since the new Guide was posted. The Core Assumption has changed.
In other news, they should probably change that part of Additional Resources...Pathfinder Society Organized Play assumes that every
player has the following resources.
• Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook
• Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play (this document)
So...since the field guide is not in the additional resources list, it's not legal for use now as well? I was under the impression that the core assumption listed on the additional resources were correct until they moved the field guide into the additional resources list so as to make it so we can still use said book. It remains to be seen if the bestiary stays on the list (the old guide to organized play did not list that under core assumption either I believe and it was just listed under additional resources page).
|
|
So...since the field guide is not in the additional resources list, it's not legal for use now as well? I was under the impression that the core assumption listed on the additional resources were correct until they moved the field guide into the additional resources list so as to make it so we can still use said book. It remains to be seen if the bestiary stays on the list (the old guide to organized play did not list that under core assumption either I believe and it was just listed under...
Really? The Field Guide isn't on the list? Check again. (Or use Ctrl-F)
|
|
hmmmm I know if i gm-ed a table and a PC said could you run it for me? I would absolutely do it! First round they would attack, and then realizing they are risking their lives for a frivolous cause take a full defensive.
That would be funny - but the spell summon monster says that it attacks your opponents to the best of its ability.
|
|
That is true but i doesnt say for how long :D
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability.
No where in the description does it say it will for the duration of the spell ^^
You mean besides the duration of the summon monster spell?
If a GM tried to do that at a table, I wouldn't blame any player for walking. That is clearly a dick move.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That is true but i doesnt say for how long :D
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability.
No where in the description does it say it will for the duration of the spell ^^
You mean besides the duration of the summon monster spell?
If a GM tried to do that at a table, I wouldn't blame any player for walking. That is clearly a dick move.
No more a dick move then the player expecting the GM to run their summoned creatures
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Summoned creatures are not NPCs or PCS. They are summoned creatures.
Players who summon creatures should have the resource readily available for use. Sure, GMs will allow PRD, SRD, or somebody else's books, but I and many other GMs will not. If you want to use summon creature abilities then YOU have to have the resource, whether it be a physical copy or the PDF.
The GM should not being running the summoned creatures, because there is already enough going on for them to worry about. Some summoned creatures the GM might not know how they should properly be ran. So the player who is summoning should have control over what the summoned creatures do.
|
|
So...basically your experience trumps mine and so no more discussion is need because YOU SAID SO?!? WTF?!? SERIOUSLY?!? This is how you win discussion? I sure as hell hope you don't run your game this way.
They are summoned, so no they don't get a character sheet... kinda weird to even have to have this portion of the conversation. I've never heard or seen anyone ever ever think of summoned creatures as NPCs and something the GM should run. I don't think there is any reason to explore that line of conversation anymore as it's a moot point.
No, they need to spend 15 cents for an index card and write down the monster stats on it, off the freely provided PRD if neccesary
|
|
Marthkus, to answer the orignial question. You have a legal copy of the resourse you are using (Bestiary). Some GMs will allow you to use the stat blocks you have (like BigNorseWolf said with the index cards and the PRD) other GMs (myslef) will only except the paid for resource.
So it really just depends on how the GM rules.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I guess my issue is that I am perfectly willing to do the legwork needed to run summons, but I feel cheated that I can't use rules that I own without buying another book.
I own the CRB and want to use summon monster. I want to use and control the monsters. I don't want to buy another book to be able to cast a spell in a book I already own.
If a GM demands I have a bestiary to use summon monster, a spell from a book that I own. I can easily turn it around and have the GM run my summons for me as the NPCs that they are. I don't want to do this, but you as the GM would be forcing to do that if I want to make use of the rules I bought in the CRB.
No you can't. But the GM can ask you to leave the table.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Both Summing and polymorph are spells in the CRB.
Let's say a player has only the CRB, but doesn't own a bestiary. Can they use polymorph? Can they summon?
Probably not. Likewise, you can't plane shift to Limbo and avail yourself of the resources there, without some book explaining what Limbo is like. Just saying "I have the Core Rulebook, and it has plane shift in it" is insufficient. NOBODY SAYS YOU AUTOMATICALLy GET TO CAST ALL THE CORE RULEBOOK SPELLS IF YOU NEED OTHER SOURCES TO REFERENCE. I don't know where you're getting that idea.
Now summons are technically NPCs.
That wasn't my understanding, Marthkus. The caster doesn't have to make Diplomacy or Handle Animal checks, even if they are commanded to perform suicidal tasks. (I summon a devil to appear 15 feet away from an archdevil; it moves up to the creature that would normally be its liege and attacks, provoking the archdevil's attacks of opportunity.) Other NPCs can't convince them to calm down, and there are spells that affect summoned monsters in ways that wouldn't work on NPCs.
If you've got a source for "summoned creatures are NPCs", I'd be happy to know about it.
If you tell that player that he can't summon because he doesn't own the bestiary, can he not respond that he owns the CRB with the summon monster spells and since summons are NPCs that you as the GM can run them, since he can't?
He can respond however he likes, but it won't get him anywhere. End of discussion. Bring your own additional resources. (And yes, if the player waits until the middle of combat to ask whether he can borrow my book, his character did already cast the summons spell the previous round, even though there's nothing the PC decided to summon. Sometimes that happens.)
So let's say I want to play a summon focused caster in PFS, but do not own a bestiary.
Then you have about as much chance as playing a kensai if you don't own both Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat.
Oh, and incidentally, to the folks who wanted summon monster spells to include creatures from Bestiaries 2 and 3, this thread is one of the reasons why not.
No you can't. But the GM can ask you to leave the table.I guess my issue is that I am perfectly willing to do the legwork needed to run summons, but I feel cheated that I can't use rules that I own without buying another book.
I own the CRB and want to use summon monster. I want to use and control the monsters. I don't want to buy another book to be able to cast a spell in a book I already own.
If a GM demands I have a bestiary to use summon monster, a spell from a book that I own. I can easily turn it around and have the GM run my summons for me as the NPCs that they are. I don't want to do this, but you as the GM would be forcing to do that if I want to make use of the rules I bought in the CRB.
Oh and why is that? I have all the NPC monsters stated out using the CRB. The GM refuses to let me run them because I do not own a bestiary. GMs are the one's who are suppose to run NPCs.
What part of, "I use this spell, from this book I own" is illegal in PFS play?
Furthermore as NPCs, can a player not use the PRD to run them? GMs use the PRD to run NPCs. Why couldn't a player when they are doing the GM's job for them?
Both Summing and polymorph are spells in the CRB.
Let's say a player has only the CRB, but doesn't own a bestiary. Can they use polymorph? Can they summon?
Probably not. Likewise, you can't plane shift to Limbo and avail yourself of the resources there, without some book explaining what Limbo is like. Just saying "I have the Core Rulebook, and it has plane shift in it" is insufficient. NOBODY SAYS YOU AUTOMATICALLy GET TO CAST ALL THE CORE RULEBOOK SPELLS IF YOU NEED OTHER SOURCES TO REFERENCE. I don't know where you're getting that idea.
Now summons are technically NPCs.That wasn't my understanding, Marthkus. The caster doesn't have to make Diplomacy or Handle Animal checks, even if they are commanded to perform suicidal tasks. (I summon a devil to appear 15 feet away from an archdevil; it moves up to the creature that would normally be its liege and attacks, provoking the archdevil's attacks of opportunity.) Other NPCs can't convince them to calm down, and there are spells that affect summoned monsters in ways that wouldn't work on NPCs.
If you've got a source for "summoned creatures are NPCs", I'd be happy to know about it.
If you tell that player that he can't summon because he doesn't own the bestiary, can he not respond that he owns the CRB with the summon monster spells and since summons are NPCs that you as the GM can run them, since he can't?He can respond however he likes, but it won't get him anywhere. End of discussion. Bring your own additional resources. (And yes, if the player waits until the middle of combat to ask whether he can borrow my book, his character did already cast the summons spell the previous round, even though there's nothing the PC decided to summon. Sometimes that happens.)
So let's say I want to play a summon focused caster in PFS, but do not own a bestiary.Then you have about as much chance as playing a kensai if you don't own both Ultimate Magic...
1) You do need handle animal checks when trying to control animal summons beyond basic commands.
2) You are required to share a language with the summon, if you wish to command them verbally beyond basic commands.
3) I don't own the rules that say summon monster can summon X creature from outside the bestiary. Obviously I can't do that. The CRB does state which creatures I can summon.
Look. I am perfectly willing to share running the NPC burden with the GM, but I would need access to the same resources the GM gets when running NPCs to do it (PRD).
I have all the monsters stated out and ready to go.
I do not own a bestiary.
Summoning is something I could do. But if the GM doesn't want to let me run the monsters that does not negate my ownership of the spell.
No, they need to spend 15 cents for an index card and write down the monster stats on it, off the freely provided PRD if neccesarySo...basically your experience trumps mine and so no more discussion is need because YOU SAID SO?!? WTF?!? SERIOUSLY?!? This is how you win discussion? I sure as hell hope you don't run your game this way.
They are summoned, so no they don't get a character sheet... kinda weird to even have to have this portion of the conversation. I've never heard or seen anyone ever ever think of summoned creatures as NPCs and something the GM should run. I don't think there is any reason to explore that line of conversation anymore as it's a moot point.
Apparently, they need to own a bestiary.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
What part of, "I use this spell, from this book I own" is illegal in PFS play?
Let's try a more straight-forward example. "Ultimate Combat" has some archetypes for Inquisitors. Now, the Inquisitor base class is from another book. Are you arguing that a player who owns UC but not APG can play a "witch hunter" in PFS? What part of, "I use this archetype from this book I own" is illegal in PFS play?
Furthermore as NPCs, can a player not use the PRD to run them? GMs use the PRD to run NPCs. Why couldn't a player when they are doing the GM's job for them?
You have received an answer from experienced GMs, and Venture Officers, that this is not the way PFS works. You have your answer.
Are you trying to figure out why?
Or ar you arguing just for the fun of it? (That's cool, I guess. But I wanted to be clear about it.)
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Summoner monsters are creatures, yes? Are they PLAYER character or NONE PLAYER characters? Do summoned monsters get a character sheet each time they are summoned in your games? Because they sure as hell don't in mine. PC and NPC is an one or the other option. There is no third option here.
Sure there is. "Summoned creatures". There's tons of things in the game that aren't characters. Animated objects aren't characters. Traps aren't characters. Eidolons aren't characters.
You're being silly, CN.
What part of, "I use this spell, from this book I own" is illegal in PFS play?Let's try a more straight-forward example. "Ultimate Combat" has some archetypes for Inquisitors. Now, the Inquisitor base class is from another book. Are you arguing that a player who owns UC but not APG can play a "witch hunter" in PFS? What part of, "I use this archetype from this book I own" is illegal in PFS play?
Furthermore as NPCs, can a player not use the PRD to run them? GMs use the PRD to run NPCs. Why couldn't a player when they are doing the GM's job for them?You have received an answer from experienced GMs, and Venture Officers, that this is not the way PFS works. You have your answer.
Are you trying to figure out why?
Or ar you arguing just for the fun of it? (That's cool, I guess. But I wanted to be clear about it.)
Can you not play a ninja, if you do not own the rogue? Few archetypes replace all the class features that you would be using to run that character, so it unrelated.
Unless, could someone run a character that was purely archetypes while not owning the base class, since every aspect was changed?I'm trying to map out these rules. There seems to be some debate as to whether or not you need to own a bestiary to summon. Assuming you have PRB printouts with stats ready to go. Unfortunately someone in this thread turned this into, "Can a lazy player do this to the GM?".
|
|
It just as simple as this: Anything outside of the CRB you have to own a copy of the resource to be able to use stuff in it. The critters you summoning do not have stat blocks in the CRB so in order to use the spell, you also have to have the bestiary. Having access to the PRD means dittly squat for a player. You still have to have the resource.
The GM has every right to ask for the source book and if you do not present a legal copy then you don't get to use the spell. That is the players responsibility to have the proper source, not the GMs.
|
|
Can you not play a ninja, if you do not own the rogue? Few archetypes replace all the class features that you would be using to run that character, so it unrelated.
Unless, could someone run a character that was purely archetypes while not owning the base class, since every aspect was changed?I'm trying to map out these rules. There seems to be some debate as to whether or not you need to own a bestiary to summon. Assuming you have PRB printouts with stats ready to go. Unfortunately someone in this thread turned this into, "Can a lazy player do this to the GM?".
The ninja is an alternate class, so no, you dont need to own the Rogue to use it (though you wouldnt anyway, since its in the Core, which is part of the Core Assumption for players), though you would need to own Ultimate Combat to use it, since that is the source of the alternate class.
As far as having the stats, you are likely going to find that to be a 'table variation' situation. At my table as long as you have the stats with you from some reputable source (The Bestiary, the PRD, D20PFSRD, or Archives of Nethys to name a few) Id probably be fine with it. Other GMs may require you to actually own the Bestiary. Yes, the spell is legal and in a book on the Core Assumption for players. The Bestiary is on the Core Assumption FOR GM USE. Just cause the GM has a book at the table DOES NOT mean you get free reign to use what is inside just cause its at the table. For players, the Bestiary is just like every other book on the additional resources page.
Who is going to run the creatures should be decided by the player and GM. If the GM really wants to, I think there is a precedence for them to do so, though Im not taking the time to look it up. Personally, Id allow the player to do it themselves.
The answer to the last question is NO. Absolutely not. It's nice that you dont want to handle your own creatures in combat. That's fine with me. If thats how you feel, dont summon them. If you think you can tell me I HAVE to run them for you(or if Im a player and you try to tell another GM and force them to), you have another thing coming. You CANNOT force a GM to do anything at the table, but the GM very well CAN tell you to leave the table.
|
Cold Napalm, I'd like to personally address you for a moment if I may. You and I have somewhat similar hopes in our desire to additional resource requirements somewhat lessened. My hopes are to see legalization of photo copies from printed books, and several workable suggestions from writing your name and PFS on the page prior to copying to getting your collection signed off by a game day coordinator of VC/VL have been made. Mike said he would take these things under consideration, and I am sure that once Gen Con insanity cools off he will be true to his word.
Though (at least from what I can tell) your goals are like-themed but different, your present attitude isn't going to help our cause out any bud. You are coming off awfully hostile, and that makes having a civil discussion difficult. Just take a moment and consider those words.