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Does the "Can I Upgrade a Named Magic Item?" FAQ mean that you cannot upgrade weapon or armor enchantments (such as Flaming and Fortification), or is it referring to items only (such as Celestial Armor and Bracers of Archery)?
I tried looking through the new Guide but couldn't find anything, and the "How to Upgrade Your Gear in PFS" thread didn't shed any light on enchantments, either.
Basically, I'm wanting to see if I can upgrade my +1 Reliable Musket to a +1 Greater Reliable Musket.
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My understanding is that you can't upgrade from one named enhancement to another, even if one is just a better version of the other. You're effectively removing reliable and replacing it with greater reliable, and you can't do the first step of that.
You could upgrade to a +2 reliable musket however, as you're just improving the bonus.
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Does the "Can I Upgrade a Named Magic Item?" FAQ mean that you cannot upgrade weapon or armor enchantments (such as Flaming and Fortification), or is it referring to items only (such as Celestial Armor and Bracers of Archery)?
I tried looking through the new Guide but couldn't find anything, and the "How to Upgrade Your Gear in PFS" thread didn't shed any light on enchantments, either.
Basically, I'm wanting to see if I can upgrade my +1 Reliable Musket to a +1 Greater Reliable Musket.
The question is answered, in the second thread you linked.
It's from the FAQ... Believe me, nothing would make me happier than the ability to upgrade my rods but looks like only wondrous items with "+X" in the name can be upgraded, and the only exception made so far are the belts and headbands going from +2 in a stat to +2 in two different stats. :(Lesser Bracers of Archery to Greater Bracers of Archery or Lesser Metamagic Rods to regular Metamagic Rods are a good example of things you cannot upgrade.Interesting. Got a link?
Changed the bag of holding question. Mike can you clarify if I have it correct now? A BoH Type 1 can not be upgraded to a BoH Type 2.That is correct
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Thanks, Paz. I've searched multiple threads dating back months and could only find a few posters evenly split on the issue. A couple said you could, a couple said you couldn't.
LordSynos, as I mentioned in my OP, those are items, not enchantments. I'm inquiring as to whether or not the latter may be upgraded.
I.E.
Flaming ==> Flaming Burst
(a +1 enchantment to a +2)
Fortification, Light ==> Fortification, Moderate ==> Fortification, Heavy
(a +1 enchantment to a +3, then +3 to +5)
Reliable ==> Reliable, Greater
(a +1 enchantment to a +3)
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Well, the rules lawyer in me says:
Reading the PFS guide 5.0, the faq, and the summary page in forum thread, I don't see anything that even says you *can* add enhancements to a weapon via upgrade. But Mike Brock in several threads refers to doing it, so clearly it can be done.
The only language in the rules is in reference to adding +X to an item of +Y, therefore any upgrade that adds +X to +Y is legal, and Mikes assertions allowing adding enhancements implies that they are counting this as adding a +X.
upgrading to greater reliable from reliable would count as +2 to a +1, therefore is allowed.
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I believe the problem comes from not having a definite table that maps out enchantment progression.
Sure, some like XXX, lesser into XXX, greater is pretty cut and dry, but I can see flaming for example being an issue. You will have some people clamoring that flaming burst is the next step in the progression, and you will have others claiming no, igniting is the next one.
Then what happens when Paizo releases Ultimate Equipment 2 and they add flaming, greater? People are going to want that as the upgrade. Then we decide to change it to that one, and someone wanting flaming burst is now upset because he was not grandfathered in. And we go on and on.
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I'm not sure myself. The stickied thread at the top has this:
Q: Can I upgrade my headband of vast intelligence +2 into a headband of mental prowess +2?
A: Yes. You can spend 6,000 gp to upgrade your headband as long as you have enough fame (27) to purchase the final item price (10,000 gp)
So, you might be allowed to go from a flaming to a flaming burst.
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I recently met another Gunslinger, level 10 I believe, who was only using a +1 Musket. He was saving up for Reliable, Greater. I asked why he didn't just start with Reliable, like I did, and upgrade later, and he told me the rules didn't support that.
If the rules had been more clear about this, I'd have done the same. I planned out my Gunslinger's purchases until 12th, which she'll be this Friday, but if these are the rules then I'll be short about 4k, since I'd have to sell the gun I've had since first level.
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I'm not sure myself. The stickied thread at the top has this:
So, you might be allowed to go from a flaming to a flaming burst.Q: Can I upgrade my headband of vast intelligence +2 into a headband of mental prowess +2?
A: Yes. You can spend 6,000 gp to upgrade your headband as long as you have enough fame (27) to purchase the final item price (10,000 gp)
The headbands and belts were considered a special case.
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If the rules don't support upgrading enchantments, then I have to ask why they don't.
Is it because some upgrade paths are not clear, so ban them all?
Is it because the campaign leadership wants people to "save up"?
Or perhaps it is some other reason I can't discern?
If the primary motivation for doing this is making players wait longer to get the bigger enchantments they want, in a sort of "bigger risk, bigger reward" sort of way, then I have a couple problems with that logic.
As scenarios get tougher, parties are going to be at a bigger disadvantage when their members have to make due with sub-par items while waiting to spend their gold on something they might not afford until higher levels. It's not just the player that is taking the bigger risk, it's the party that is being put at bigger risk when the Fighter who was saving up for Fortification, Heavy dies from a critical hit, or the Gunslinger misfires by 1 when they could have had Reliable on their gun the whole time.
It also just seems "anti-fun". In the case of Fortification, a player will get gratification every few levels when they first get the enchantment, upgrade it once, and upgrade it again. If they're having to save up until 9th or 10th level, that's 9 or 10 levels of having to explain why they're just wearing +1 Armor, and 9 or 10 levels where they would have had a chance to use a game feature that is being arbitrarily denied them.
Perhaps this thread can be used to persuade the campaign leadership to take another look at upgrading enchantments? I'd at least like to know the reasons for them being disallowed (if they truly are, which isn't 100% clear anyways).
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Here's a list I compiled from Ultimate Equipment of enchantments I think would be easy to understand an upgrade path for:
WEAPON ENCHANTMENTS
Corrosive (+1) ==> Corrosive Burst (+2)
Designating, Lesser (+2) ==> Designating, Greater (+4)
Dispelling (+1) ==> Dispelling Burst (+2)
Flaming (+1) ==> Flaming Burst (+2)*
Frost (+1) ==> Icy Burst (+2)
Ki Focus (+1) ==> Ki Intensifying (+2)
Lucky (+1) ==> Lucky, Greater (+3)
Reliable (+1) ==> Reliable, Greater (+3)
Shock (+1) ==> Shocking Burst (+2)
The following weapon enchantment upgrade would probably not be legal. Each is similar in theme but functionally different:
Furious (+1) ==> Furyborn (+2)
ARMOR ENCHANTMENTS
Energy Resistance (+18,000gp) ==> ER, Improved (+42,000gp) ==> ER, Greater (+66,000gp)
Fortification (+1) ==> Fortification, Moderate (+3) ==> Fortification, Heavy (+5)
Shadow (+3,750gp) ==> Shadow, Improved (+15,000gp) ==> Shadow, Greater (+33,750gp)
Slick (+3,750gp) ==> Slick, Improved (+15,000gp) ==> Slick, Greater (+33,750gp)
Spell Resistance 13 (+2) ==> SR 15 (+3) ==> SR 17 (+4) ==> SR 19 (+5)
The following armor enchantment upgrade would probably not be legal. Each is similar in theme but functionally different:
Arrow Catching (+1) ==> Arrow Deflection (+2)
* The Flaming / Flaming Burst upgrade presents a problem because Igniting could also be argued as an "upgrade" from Flaming. The solutions could either be to allow Flaming / Flaming Burst only, since those are the two listed in the CRB and the most well known, or to allow Flaming to be upgraded to either Flaming Burst or Igniting.
I'm sure there are other possibilities in other books as well.
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I like the look of your list Nefreet, and am in the same situation with my Gunslinger upgrading my +1 Reliable Double-Barrel Pistol to Greater Reliable. Tacking another 5000gp on to the cost of upgrading seems like an unreasonable expense, especially when the enchantment is explicitly the same bonus at an increased value.
There is the additional flavour cost of giving up a weapon that our characters have been wielding for 15 to 20 scenarios. For some of us that is a significant sacrifice.
Thank you for putting this forward and doing the work.
I have FAQ flagged this as well.
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I already posted in the stickied thread about upgrading equipment, but it can't hurt to pile on here.
Since a belt of dex +2 can be upgraded to a belt of mighty dex +2, essentially adding a bulls strength enchament to the existing cat's grace enchantment, why would we not be able to upgrade a belt of str +2 to Anaconda Coils since that is just adding a beast form enchantment to the existing bulls strength?
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There is the additional flavour cost of giving up a weapon that our characters have been wielding for 15 to 20 scenarios. For some of us that is a significant sacrifice.
I totally agree. I've had my Musket for 33 scenarios so far. Selling it to buy another, rather than just upgrading it, and claiming it's the same weapon I've always had, would be as disingenuous as those Druids who trade out Animal Companions and claim that it's the same animal as before.
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The rules for PFS are unclear, and those are what I'm asking for clarification on.
There are no rules in the Core Rulebook for upgrading a +1 Weapon to a +2 Weapon, or a +1 Cloak of Resistance to a +2 Cloak of Resistance, and yet the PFS houserule is that you can. I believe, as obviously many others do, that this includes upgrading Flaming to Flaming Burst, the same as upgrading any other +2 weapon from a +1.
What Mike Brock has made clear is that upgrading named wondrous items is not allowed, except for a handful of items such as belts and headbands. I am not petitioning for a rules change, I am asking for a rules clarification. You are inferring that his limitation on wondrous items includes weapon and armor upgrades, but as far as I can tell, he has never eluded to that.
Unless you know of a comment of his that I missed.
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And, as FLite pointed out earlier, there aren't actually any rules for adding Flaming to an existing +1 Weapon either, so clarification on whether or not you can do that would be nice as well.
(because if it isn't, my Reliable upgrade would be illegal, I could get a refund on it, and purchasing a brand new, Greater Reliable firearm would be easier)
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The section you quoted specifically regards crafting magic items, which you cannot do in Society.
But if that's true that I never could have put Reliable on my +1 Musket to begin with, I'll happily refund my money. That hurts less than having to sell the whole thing at half price.
I just figured you could always add a magical enchantment to a +1 weapon or armor. Probably most of my characters will have to be rebuilt.
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The section you quoted specifically regards crafting magic items, which you cannot do in Society.
But if that's true that I never could have put Reliable on my +1 Musket to begin with, I'll happily refund my money. That hurts less than having to sell the whole thing at half price.
I just figured you could always add a magical enchantment to a +1 weapon or armor. Probably most of my characters will have to be rebuilt.
In PFS you are paying to have someone else do it not yourself. That is why there are fame requirements for max gold cost. Your reliable bonus added to a +1 musket is perfectly legal.
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These are the two relevant sections from the Guide:
For ease of play in Pathfinder Society, a masterwork item can always be upgraded to a +1 item without paying for the masterwork cost again. Instead, you pay the difference between the cost of the +1 item and that of the masterwork item. This rule also applies to upgrading from a +1 item to a +2 item and so on—you never have to repay the original cost or sell your current item for half to upgrade to the next step. Note that this only applies to items of the same kind—you can’t, for example, turn your masterwork rapier into a +1 greatsword. A mundane item can not be upgraded to masterwork, nor can nonmagical aspects of equipment be upgraded (such as the strength rating on a composite bow).
...and...
Items must be purchased at full value. You can’t buy broken weapons or armor; you can’t buy partially charged wands, rods, or staves; and you must buy ammunition in full lots (typically 10 or 20 for mundane ammunition and 50 for magical ammunition). You may purchase items of less than full value only if they appear that way on a Chronicle sheet.
(emphasis mine)
Nothing in there says you can add or upgrade a +1 Weapon to a +1 Flaming Weapon. "It must be purchased at full value". There likewise aren't any rules for upgrading weapons or armor in the CRB, either. Just for crafting. Which you cannot do in Society.
I'm pretty sure we've all added something like Flaming to a +1 Weapon before. But is it supported in the rules? And if it isn't, but people do it anyways, why couldn't your Flaming be upgraded to Flaming Burst?
See where I'm coming from?
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The probably left it out on accident. This was the intent:
Nope, it's in there:
"This
rule also applies to upgrading from a +1 item to a +2 item
and so on—you never have to repay the original cost or
sell your current item for half to upgrade to the next step.
Note that this only applies to items of the same kind—
you can’t, for example, turn your masterwork rapier into
a +1 greatsword. A mundane item can not be upgraded to
masterwork, nor can nonmagical aspects of equipment
be upgraded (such as the strength rating on a composite
bow)."
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Can I Upgrade a Named Magic Item?
Named magic items—including specific armor and specific weapons—are not upgradeable. Non-magic specific armor and specific weapons may be upgraded normally. Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions. Wondrous items whose names include a +X value (such as bracers of armor, headband of vast intelligence, amulet of might fists, etc.) may also be upgraded following the rules for upgrading magical items on page 19 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.Upgraded versions of named magic items may appear on Chronicle sheets.
Intelligent magic items are not available for purchase unless they appear on a Chronicle sheet or are provided as part of a class or archetype (such as the black blade magus archetype).
That is still not what this discussion is about. A "named magic item" is something like Bracers of Archery, or Rhino Hide, or Nine Lives Stealer.
I'm specifically calling out weapon and armor enchantments. Not named items. I believe there is a distinct difference.
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Can I Upgrade a Named Magic Item?
Named magic items—including specific armor and specific weapons—are not upgradeable. Non-magic specific armor and specific weapons may be upgraded normally. Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions. Wondrous items whose names include a +X value (such as bracers of armor, headband of vast intelligence, amulet of might fists, etc.) may also be upgraded following the rules for upgrading magical items on page 19 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.Upgraded versions of named magic items may appear on Chronicle sheets.
Intelligent magic items are not available for purchase unless they appear on a Chronicle sheet or are provided as part of a class or archetype (such as the black blade magus archetype).
That is still not what this discussion is about. A "named magic item" is something like Bracers of Archery, or Rhino Hide, or Nine Lives Stealer.
I'm specifically calling out weapon and armor enchantments. Not named items. I believe there is a distinct difference.
The link may not be but rest of the paragraph on page 23 of the G2PFS is. Which he quoted.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Victor, you also can't add additional qualities to a named item, and the rules don't say you can add additional named qualities to an item that already has named qualities.
So if we follow the RAW, and we say that the RAW says you cannot upgrade named qualities, then you cannot upgrade your +1 flaming sword to a +1 flaming, throwing sword (for example.) Which I think is going to be an unpleasant surprise to some people.
So the question becomes, where is the line drawn?
From strict to liberal understanding of rules as written:
you can upgrade +1 flaming to +2 flaming, but not +1 flaming to +1 flaming, throwing
You can upgrade a +1 flaming to +1 flaming, throwing, but not +1 flaming to +1 flame burst
You can upgrade a +1 flaming to +1 flame burst, but not +1 flaming to +1 frost burst
you can upgrade a +1 flaming to +1 frost burst
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You've been making a lot of claims in this thread that are blatently untrue(rules don't say you can upgrade items, PFS rules don't say you can upgrade items, ect). Please do your homework before making RAW claims about what you are and aren't allowed to do. It's really hurting your credibility when you end up getting called on making false statements.
What have I said that is untrue? All I've done is quoted the rules that exist, and all I've asked for are quotes in return.
Again, if you've seen a quote from Mike Brock or John Compton or anyone else from campaign leadership that says upgrading weapon and armor enchantments is not allowed, please post it. I would have no reason to debate further. I consider myself fairly adept at doing research, and I wasn't able to find anything. We're almost done with the first page of this thread, and nobody else has supplied a quote, either.
As it is now, and please correct me if I am wrong, I do not see any way to add a Flaming enchantment to a +1 Weapon. I don't see it in the CRB, and I don't see it in the Guide. But obviously people have done it, and continue to do it. I've added Shadow to my armor, Reliable to my gun, and Arrow Deflection to a buckler. It must be intended that people can do this, and yet I can't find where it is written that they can.
So, if people are allowed to enchant their items, wouldn't the section that says, "upgrade to the next step" cover upgrading their enchantments, too? Flaming is a +1 enchantment, and Flaming Burst is a +2. Seems reasonable to me.
So, the possibilities we have are this:
1) People are allowed to upgrade their magical enhancement bonuses only, as listed in the Guide, and otherwise must purchase their items at full value. You cannot upgrade a +1 Weapon to Flaming, you must purchase a +1 Flaming Weapon.
2) People are allowed to add enchantments to magical armor or weapons (as most people seem to be doing already), but they are not allowed to upgrade those enchantments to the next step.
3) People are allowed to add enchantments to magical armor or weapons, and they are allowed to upgrade those enchantments to the next step.
Given those three possibilities, which cannot all exist, I again ask for a rules clarification. If you can be the one to do that, here's your chance, and it can all be settled, and we can all move on.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Nefreet, you missed 1.5:
People are allowed to add enhancements to a magical weapon one time, but once an item has enhancements, no new enhancements can be added. (It is now a "Named item or item with named enhancements" and may not be upgraded to a new, different "Named item or item with named enhancements"