So I want to make a summoner as my next GM baby for PFS. I am liking the idea of an aasimar summoner, but I really didn't want to do the whole "little girl with big monster" schtick. Any ideas?Where did you get the idea that this was the dominant trope of asimar summoners?
I'd actually like to know that too. I've never seen that at the table. I've seen a guy riding a unicorn, a guy and his (not so) imaginary best friend, a dirt farmer and his super gopher, and my summoner was a relaxed mystic with a fiery nine tailed fox(he had a fox theme...).
I'm a bit of a min-maxer. I've been trying to come up with an interesting Eidolon. Every max damage build is a Huge 6 to 8 armed guy wielding kuris with Multi-weapon fighting, Double Slice, Power Attack, Arcane Strike (after spending one point to get an arcane (Sp)). My summoner focuses on crafting so he can spend his life building items for his Eidolon and himself since they share slots.
Wouldn't you get near the same damage using a AoMF and claw attacks. It would save you a ton on enchanging multiple kuris, save you on feats and evolution points, and you would have a better hit chance. I would think the trade off would make up for the little damage you loose. Actually I haven't done the math, but with your natural attacks you get to add str, but all but one kuris would get 1/2 str. Im interested in how you came to the conclusion a weapon build was better.
I'm a bit of a min-maxer. I've been trying to come up with an interesting Eidolon. Every max damage build is a Huge 6 to 8 armed guy wielding kuris with Multi-weapon fighting, Double Slice, Power Attack, Arcane Strike (after spending one point to get an arcane (Sp)). My summoner focuses on crafting so he can spend his life building items for his Eidolon and himself since they share slots.Wouldn't you get near the same damage using a AoMF and claw attacks. It would save you a ton on enchanging multiple kuris, save you on feats and evolution points, and you would have a better hit chance. I would think the trade off would make up for the little damage you loose. Actually I haven't done the math, but with your natural attacks you get to add str, but all but one kuris would get 1/2 str. Im interested in how you came to the conclusion a weapon build was better.
Crit range with a 50 strength is better than claws. Claws crit on a 19-20 with Improved Crit. A Kukri crits on a 15-20. Static bonuses add up at higher level. So critting a ton will up damage even against DR. Natural weapons seem cool at low level. They are generally weaker at higher level when static bonuses are higher and crit range becomes more important.
I think I counted out 8 arms. The first arm gets 3 attacks plus 7 attacks from the other kukris. Hasted is 11 attacks. All doing 2d6 with enlarge person with a roughly 50 str crittin on a 15-20.
A claw might do 3d6+25 critting on a 19-20 for a maximum of 6 attacks and usually a bite.
Whereas a multi-armed guy will do the 11 attacks for 1d8+25 critting 15-20. The crit damage will add up.
The AoMF would be much cheaper. Since I'm making my guy a Crafter I will focus almost all my coin weapons.
Something I would like to know: What do you do with the Summoner character? What does he do? Do you just buff your Eidolon? Does he add to damage?
I'm trying to plan out my Summoner. It seems he only has two paths.
1. A Dominator that takes over the minds of creatures with low will saves to add his army.
2. A buffer who spends his time buffing up his Eidolon. Maybe uses Use Magic Device to add some damage with wands or other items.
How do you Summoners build the Summoner character? What feats? What does he do while his Eidolon is fighting?
I made my summoner a high strength half orc with a great axe. First round I apply a buff, usually defensive one, to myself or eidolon, next turn I charge in an add my DPR to the party. 1d12+6 isn't bad to add, 3/4 BAB isn't that much of a handicap in a class that can self buff and comes with a flanking buddy. I made my build focused on being a good secondary combatant. It lowers the demand on the somewhat limited number of spells per day so you don't spend so many per encounter.
Alternatively you can go with a half elf and take ancestral arms for a better weapon than a great ax. A reach weapon is pretty good, as it lets you fight behind a meat shield. At first level you can't take the power attack feat (which you might not even want being a 3/4 BAB character) but there are plenty of other good feats you can go for. Combat reflexes is quite good if you go the reach route.
I was thinking of building up a fighter-type with a few Teamwork Feats like Outlank. Seems like it could be powerful.
Hmm, so if I'm going to cough up a feat, it might as well be an exotic weapon.
Only one feat to get an exotic weapon. Even if you have no weapon proficiencies at all the only requirement is +1 BAB, so your good to grab it! The downside is most exotic weapons kinda' suck.
Hmm, so if I'm going to cough up a feat, it might as well be an exotic weapon.Only one feat to get an exotic weapon. Even if you have no weapon proficiency at all the only requirement is +1 BAB, so your good to grab it! The downside is most exotic weapons kinda' suck.
While some do in fact suck, the reason why most of them are not taken is the feat tax. If you are paying it anyways there are some really good ones. Falcata for instance.
[Crit range with a 50 strength is better than claws. Claws crit on a 19-20 with Improved Crit. A Kukri crits on a 15-20. Static bonuses add up at higher level. So critting a ton will up damage even against DR. Natural weapons seem cool at low level. They are generally weaker at higher level when static bonuses are higher and crit range becomes more important.
I think I counted out 8 arms. The first arm gets 3 attacks plus 7 attacks from the other kukris. Hasted is 11 attacks. All doing 2d6 with enlarge person with a roughly 50 str crittin on a 15-20.
A claw might do 3d6+25 critting on a 19-20 for a maximum of 6 attacks and usually a bite.
Whereas a multi-armed guy will do the 11 attacks for 1d8+25 critting 15-20. The crit damage will add up.
The AoMF would be much cheaper. Since I'm making my guy a Crafter I will focus almost all my coin weapons.
So with a +15 BAB and a 50 Str and Large(-1 to hit)you are looking at:
+32/+27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+22 - For 1d8 + 15
Vs.
+34/+34/+34/+34/+34/+34/+34 - With improved NA for 3d6 + 25
You have a chance (A chance) to deal 5 more damage with each attack, get 4 extra attacks, but with less chance to hit, lower base weapon damage, and half the str bonus. I haven't done the hard math but that sounds terrible.
Now even being a crafter your looking at 25k a dagger. Thats 270,000 gold of your 880,000 max. Not to mention the 550 days of crafting... for a better crit range and 4 extra attacks that suffer from a lower chance to hit in the first place.
Those extra evolution points could be used on more STR, going Huge, ect. The gold could be used to buy magic items that cant beef up the damage in other ways and add utility. Its a cool concept though. And while not the most optimized its at least a build that on paper works to be close to a NA pet. The logistics though of all that gold and time... I dont see it being that easy in a real game compared to a Natural Attacker you just pick feats and buy one AoMF for.
While this build is cool, do you think it would be workable in PFS with the limited resources and 12th level limit. Not so sure.
No I dont. Thats kinda my point. On paper it looks great until you look at the gold investment and time. Now in the original poster's defense... he said he played in a high Min-Max game which usually means the DM gives the party alot of extra time and gold. If you are in a game where you get more then your WBL and you have alot of down time(like in Kingmaker) then i could see this working. But for most games and expecially PFS its just not practical. And without doing the math... it doesn't look to have much of a pay off if any at all. You might actually be loosing DPS depending on the AC of your enemies.
I made my summoner a high strength half orc with a great axe. First round I apply a buff, usually defensive one, to myself or eidolon, next turn I charge in an add my DPR to the party. 1d12+6 isn't bad to add, 3/4 BAB isn't that much of a handicap in a class that can self buff and comes with a flanking buddy. I made my build focused on being a good secondary combatant. It lowers the demand on the somewhat limited number of spells per day so you don't spend so many per encounter.
Alternatively you can go with a half elf and take ancestral arms for a better weapon than a great ax. A reach weapon is pretty good, as it lets you fight behind a meat shield. At first level you can't take the power attack feat (which you might not even want being a 3/4 BAB character) but there are plenty of other good feats you can go for. Combat reflexes is quite good if you go the reach route.
I would like to add to this point. Alot of people call the Summoner "Squishy", but in reality he isnt. If you really look he has the same survivability as a Bard. They both have D8, use Light armor, have medium BAB, and access to the same defensive buffs. Why people use "Summoners are Squishy" as an example for why Syth Summoners are good is beyond me. Its the opposite imo. As natabot just pointed out. A Summoner can be an effectve addition to the battle field without being dead meat.
Per the question above how do you see Slam as equivalent in effectiveness to a pounce Artanthos. How does the math on that come out anywhere close.I posted the math on both up-thread.
Average DPR of a pouncing quad at level 1: 10.65
Average DPR of a charging biped at level 1: 10.63
As as was mentioned. After level one that slam starts to fall farther and farther behind a pouncing multi NA pet.
Now in the original poster's defense... he said he played in a high Min-Max game which usually means the DM gives the party alot of extra time and gold.The OP, who is building a character for PFS?
No Im sorry. The original poster of the 11 attack kukri pet.
Per the question above how do you see Slam as equivalent in effectiveness to a pounce Artanthos. How does the math on that come out anywhere close.I posted the math on both up-thread.
Average DPR of a pouncing quad at level 1: 10.65
Average DPR of a charging biped at level 1: 10.63
I don't see the math posted anywhere, just statements.
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As as was mentioned. After level one that slam starts to fall farther and farther behind a pouncing multi NA pet.Per the question above how do you see Slam as equivalent in effectiveness to a pounce Artanthos. How does the math on that come out anywhere close.I posted the math on both up-thread.
Average DPR of a pouncing quad at level 1: 10.65
Average DPR of a charging biped at level 1: 10.63
I recommended changing the slam out at level three.....
@neferphras The math was done at level 1 because pounce was claimed to be overpowered at level 1, as compared to a barbarian.
Further discussion on slam took places because the OP has a specific theme he is interested in and slam provides a viable low level progression to achieve that goal.
At higher level, there are better build options than slam.
You can build a quite functioning biped, even at later levels.
The biped got two things working for them, longer reach and higher strength. And though pounce is fantastic, certainly no argument here, you can get a pounce -light edition- from the Quick Runner's shirt chest slot (IIRC) magical item (and at 1000gp a piece, it is silly cheap). Now there are times where you pounce more than once in a fight, but with the big biped's reach, it's not that often.
And for that nonsense about a barbarian always topping an eidolon in damage output, yeah right, dream on. At what level do you think an eidolon can top the magical 400 DPR against a level appropriate opponent? I've done it at level 14, and I bet it could be done earlier (it wasn't all that optimized TBH).
How do you come up with BiPeds having more reach. If you mean the REACH evolution any form can take that.
Because you want your eidolon large:
An eidolon grows in size, becoming Large. The eidolon gains a +8 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 bonus to its natural armor. It takes a –2 penalty to its Dexterity. This size change also gives the creature a –1 size penalty to its AC and on attack rolls, a +1 bonus to its CMB and CMD, a –2 penalty on Fly skill checks, and a –4 penalty on Stealth skill checks. If the eidolon has the biped base form, it also gains 10-foot reach. Any reach evolutions the eidolon possesses are added to this total. The eidolon must be Medium to take this evolution. The summoner must be at least 8th level before selecting this evolution.
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ok so you are in effect agreeing with me, pounce is a dominate evolution, if you have it you rock, if you dont, well in effect you are playing a less than great Eidolon. My original comment was agreeing with something you posted suggesting the other base forms need something to counter balance the dominance of pounce. That comment stands true despite the math suggestion of slam at first level. There is NOTHING other base forms can take that is anywhere close to as effective in combat as POUNCE. I am still going to play my Biped because it fits the character story, but you still have 2 classes of Eidolon, there is Quadruped, 'optimal', not quadruped...which is in effect a broken or lesser Eidolon and the reason for that is ... Pounce (which is a ridiculous 1 point evolution).
That is not what I said. I said: at higher level other builds are better.
And though pounce is fantastic, certainly no argument here, you can get a pounce -light edition- from the Quick Runner's shirt chest slot (IIRC) magical item (and at 1000gp a piece, it is silly cheap).
Thought that wasn't legal for society play? Its not too cheap, it really helps martials do that thing they're supposed to do. Also, I've actually played plenty of characters who've been able to pounce consistently or more than once. The times I don't are usually when someone blocks my chargelane to be a jerk, or when I don't actually have to. In any case I'm pretty happy to get off even one more full attack, because bad guys full attack back!
And though pounce is fantastic, certainly no argument here, you can get a pounce -light edition- from the Quick Runner's shirt chest slot (IIRC) magical item (and at 1000gp a piece, it is silly cheap).Thought that wasn't legal for society play? Its not too cheap, it really helps martials do that thing they're supposed to do. Also, I've actually played plenty of characters who've been able to pounce consistently or more than once. The times I don't are usually when someone blocks my chargelane to be a jerk, or when I don't actually have to. In any case I'm pretty happy to get off even one more full attack, because bad guys full attack back!
That might be true.
I was thinking that when the eidolon has a reach of 10', and probably more, that it would not need to charge twice all that often.
ok this is nice, so in effect you gain a one point evolution for free. Not as cool as full move and full attack of pounce, but still nice agreed.How do you come up with BiPeds having more reach. If you mean the REACH evolution any form can take that.Because you want your eidolon large:
An eidolon grows in size, becoming Large. The eidolon gains a +8 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 bonus to its natural armor. It takes a –2 penalty to its Dexterity. This size change also gives the creature a –1 size penalty to its AC and on attack rolls, a +1 bonus to its CMB and CMD, a –2 penalty on Fly skill checks, and a –4 penalty on Stealth skill checks. If the eidolon has the biped base form, it also gains 10-foot reach. Any reach evolutions the eidolon possesses are added to this total. The eidolon must be Medium to take this evolution. The summoner must be at least 8th level before selecting this evolution.
A bit more than 1-point evolution, as it counts for all your attacks, and rare is the eidolon, that only has one attack at level 8 ;) .
But is it as good as pounce? Not IMHO, no.If only the 3.5 feat "Large and in Charge" were in PF, then biped would suddenly be a real contender.
I was thinking that when the eidolon has a reach of 10', and probably more, that it would not need to charge twice all that often.
Maybe, maybe not. Depends a lot on what's going on. 10 foot reach could be the difference some of the time, but pounce is the difference on the first hit and possibly everyone after for a single evolution point. Personally I find pounce more reliable.
Quick runners shirt is NOT legal for PFS.... advantage Pounce.
Anyone else just read that in "Deadlist Warrior" voice?
Quick runners shirt is NOT legal for PFS.... advantage Pounce.Difficult terrain / other players in your charge path (both very common in PFS).
Advantage to the biped.
In my experience if you ask people nicely they open the chargelane for you(unless they're jerks anyway...), and difficult terrain is not that common. At later levels you just fly anyway...
It would be rather silly to not do that.
You'd be shocked how many silly people I've met in my life! I've even considered nabbing dragon style to just charge through them sometimes.
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In my experience if you ask people nicely they open the chargelane for you(unless they're jerks anyway...), and difficult terrain is not that common. At later levels you just fly anyway...Quick runners shirt is NOT legal for PFS.... advantage Pounce.Difficult terrain / other players in your charge path (both very common in PFS).
Advantage to the biped.
1. In my experience, difficult terrain is very common. Scenario designers frequently use it to keep parties from killing encounters in 1 round.
2. In my experience, players not used to working as a team seldom take into account the special abilities of other players when moving.Your typical pure combat quad tops out with this in PFS, before accounting for magic items.
Eidolon
Eidolon
Quadruped
LG Large Outsider
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 12, flat-footed 21 (+3 Dex, -1 size, +12 natural)
hp 85 (+36)
Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +3 (+4 morale bonus vs. Enchantment spells and effects)
Defensive Abilities evasion
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft., flight (40 feet, average)
Melee Bite (Bite) +14 (1d8+22/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Claws) +15 x2 (1d8+15/19-20/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Claws) +15 x2 (1d8+15/19-20/x2) and
. . Rend (Rend) +14 (1d8+22/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
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Statistics
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Str 28, Dex 16, Con 17, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +9; CMB +16; CMD 32 (36 vs. Trip)
Feats Eldritch Claws, Improved Critical (Claw), Multiattack, Power Attack -3/+6, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Claw)
Skills Acrobatics +8 (+12 jump), Bluff +7, Fly +13, Perception +12, Stealth +11
Languages Common
SQ devotion +4, multiattack / extra attack
Other Gear You have no money!
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Special Abilities
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Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Devotion +4 (Ex) +4 Morale bonus on Will Saves vs. Enchantments.
Eldritch Claws Your natural weapons are considered both magic and silver for purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save.
Flight (40 feet, Average) You can fly!
Multiattack / Extra Attack Multiattack or second attack with primary weapon at a -5 penalty.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Mediocre hit points, crud for armor, no will save, decent damage.
Remember charging is a straight line, if you have to climb in altitude to go over allies, you have to continue in a straight line, to curving your flight in mid-charge to come back down.
Taking a slightly different approach with the biped I come up with
Biped (Claws)
LG Large Outsider
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 11, flat-footed 21 (+2 Dex, -1 size, +12 natural)
hp 76 (+27); fast healing 1
Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +6 (+4 morale bonus vs. Enchantment spells and effects)
Defensive Abilities evasion
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Bite (Bite) +13 (1d8+8/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Claws) +13 x2 (1d6+8/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Claws) +13 x2 (1d6+8/x2) and
. . Elven curve blade +16/+11 (2d8+24/15-20/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
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Statistics
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Str 30, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +9; CMB +17; CMD 32
Feats Eldritch Claws, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven curve blade), Improved Critical (Elven curve blade), Multiattack, Power Attack -3/+6, Weapon Focus (Elven curve blade)
Skills Acrobatics +7, Bluff +7, Fly +9, Perception +12, Stealth +10
Languages Common
SQ devotion +4, multiattack / extra attack, sacrifice
Other Gear Elven curve blade, You have no money!
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Special Abilities
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Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Devotion +4 (Ex) +4 Morale bonus on Will Saves vs. Enchantments.
Eldritch Claws Your natural weapons are considered both magic and silver for purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save.
Fast Healing 1 (Ex) You heal damage every round if you have > 1 Hp.
Multiattack / Extra Attack Multiattack or second attack with primary weapon at a -5 penalty.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Sacrifice (Su) As a standard action, touch target and sacrifice up to 2 Hp per HD to heal them for half that.
I have two available attack schemes. bite +15 (1d8+16/20/x2) and 4x claw +15 (1d6+16/20/x2)
or
elven curve blade +16/+11 (2d8+24/15-20/x2) and bite + 13 (1d8+8/20/x2) and 4x claw (1d6/20/x2)
The second attack array is better on the charge or if hasted, where I pick up another attack with the elven curve blade at full bab.
I also have the trick of supplying infinite healing to the entire group. Always nice in PFS, where there are plenty of tables that have no cleric.
You don't get all four claws on the second attack routine. You also still can't attack and move 10 feet in the same round. Would it be worth it to put energy attacks on the first eidolons weapons? Does it matter that a single AoMF powers all of the quad eidolon's gear? You also can still put claws on one set of feat for the quad, grow an extra pair of arms, put claws on that, and you'd have for the most part the same guy natural attacks wise.
Mediocre hit points, crud for armor, no will save, decent damage.
To be fair, you built him that way.
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You don't get all four claws on the second attack routine. You also still can't attack and move 10 feet in the same round. Would it be worth it to put energy attacks on the first eidolons weapons? Does it matter that a single AoMF powers all of the quad eidolon's gear? You also can still put claws on one set of feat for the quad, grow an extra pair of arms, put claws on that, and you'd have for the most part the same guy natural attacks wise.
Mediocre hit points, crud for armor, no will save, decent damage.To be fair, you built him that way.
I most certainly do get all claws.
2x claws on one set of hands
2x claws on my feet (explicitly permitted for eidolons).
I was going to go hooves (same numbers), but figured what the heck.
And yes, built to focus entirely on offense an eidolon has crud for hp/ac/will. Since the conversation was focused on DPR, that was what the builds focused on.
No magic items were used, the numbers are strictly baseline. Damage is split because half the attacks have a 20' reach, the other half have a 10' reach. With magic items, both builds would have significantly better to-hit chances and at least +2 damage to each hit.
My actual summoner's eidolon has much better defenses, including Iron Will, but gave up damage to do it.
2x claws on my feet (explicitly permitted for eidolons).
Oh! I see what you did now. Thought they were on your hands... Multi-armed monsters were what we were trying to avoid earlier wasn't it?
Anyways, I think you could've gone for energy attacks and I think a single amulet of mighty first or casting of greater magic fang go a long way for a natural attack Eidolon, possibly more than for one using biped and martial weapons.
The big thing is being able to consistently get off full attacks, which pounce excels at. That becomes important in the game, especially at later levels.
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2x claws on my feet (explicitly permitted for eidolons).Oh! I see what you did now. Thought they were on your hands... Multi-armed monsters were what we were trying to avoid earlier wasn't it?
Anyways, I think you could've gone for energy attacks and I think a single amulet of mighty first or casting of greater magic fang go a long way for a natural attack Eidolon, possibly more than for one using biped and martial weapons.
The big thing is being able to consistently get off full attacks, which pounce excels at. That becomes important in the game, especially at later levels.
With a 20' reach and a 10x10 base, he threatens a 50x50 area.
The claws are actually low enough DPR that I would be very tempted to drop one pair and the extra arms (losing 10.5 DPR) and buy fast healing 2 and a climb speed. With fast healing 2, he'll recover very rapidly from any damage sustained in combat + double the speed he can heal the group.
He does not threaten a 50x50 area with full attacks though does he?