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The Undine Watersinger (Bard Archetype) gains a few abilities that look pretty cool. However, they leave a lot of questions open and I was hoping to get some feedback.
For ease of reference, here they are:
Watersong (Su): At 1st level, a watersinger can use bardic performance to manipulate and control the shape of water within 30 feet. A successful Perform check allows the bard to animate and control a 5-foot-cube of water. The watersinger can command the water to take various forms, bend, rise, fall, or sustain a shape, and can make it support weight as if it were solid ice. For example, the watersinger could create a pillar of water (to provide cover), ladder, channel, bridge, stairs, slide, and so on. The manipulated water is as slippery as normal ice. This ability cannot create forms more fragile or complex than what could be carved in normal ice. While under the bard's control, the water has hardness 0 and 3 hit points per inch of thickness. At level 3, the manipulated water gains hardness 1, and this increases by +1 for every 3 bard levels beyond that. At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, the volume affected increases by an additional 5-foot cube (these cubes must be adjacent to each other). The manipulated water retains its shape for 1 round after the bard stops spending bardic performance rounds to maintain it.
Waterstrike (Su): At 3rd level, the watersinger can spend 1 round of bardic performance to command any water he is currently manipulating with his watersong performance to lash out and strike an opponent with a slam attack. The watersinger uses his base attack bonus and Charisma bonus to make this attack, and deals 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage plus his Charisma bonus. The attack can originate from any square of water the bard is manipulating, and the water can get a flanking bonus or help a combatant get one, but cannot make attacks of opportunity. The water can make multiple attacks per round if your base attack bonus allows you to do so. At 10th level, the water's slam damage increases to 1d8 points and the water gains a reach of 10 feet. At 15th level, the water's slam damage increases to 2d6 points. At 20th level, the water's slam damage increases to 2d8 points.
My questions are:
1) Does the water used in "Watersong" have to be in one solid 5x5x5 block already? Or can you use a shallow pool that's equivalent to 125 cubic feet of water?
2) Can you move the water manipulated with "Watersong" away from its source? At what speed? (e.g. if you animated water from a lake, can the water be moved onto land?)
3) Can the water manipulated with "Watersong" be wrapped around someone like a poor-man's hold person?
4) Can the attacks from "Waterstrike" be used to perform Combat Maneuvers like Trip or Disarm?
5) Does using "Waterstrike" for a round cost 1 Bardic Performances? (1 to maintain Watersong and 1 for Waterstrike?)
Thanks!
John
Watersinger is an interesting archetype - that, as you point out, has a number of mechanical questions with it. I'm not aware of any FAQ or errata clarifying the abilities, but I've asked similar questions myself and will try and provide the (non-official) answers I've gotten:
1. I have always assumed that you could control up tofive cubic feet of water. Thus, you could control any amount of water in any configuration up to five cubic feet - from a one-inch diameter droplet up to the five-foot cube.
2. I don't believe you could move the water. The given examples seem to assume that you're stretching the water but not moving it.
3. This specifically came up for my character, and the ability is silent on it. By description I believe you should be able to do so; however, that would seem to make it too powerful for a 1st level ability (compare to Icy Prison, which is a 5th level spell). In my specific case, the GM and I worked out a system where what and how I could 'grapple' using the water increased as my level increased.
4. No, because it is not making a melee attack but is specifically making a slam attack.
5. Yes - it requires 1 round to begin manipulating the water, and another round to perform a slam attack. I would highly suggest taking the Lingering Performance feat to make the archetype viable.
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2. I don't believe you could move the water. The given examples seem to assume that you're stretching the water but not moving it.
I'm trying to understand how this is used then. If you need a ladder to climb something, you need to have the water there where it is needed already? How often does that reasonably occur? Even in a seagoing adventure, I don't think you'd often find the need for a utility item right at the point where the water is, would you? You are giving up 3 abilities from the Bard class for this afterall.
4. No, because it is not making a melee attack but is specifically making a slam attack.
I'm on the fence with this myself. It seems that a slam attack is just a type of melee attack and things like trip or disarm require a melee attack. It just seems flavorful and appropriate that a pseudopod of water would attempt to trip. I'll have to ask the GM his thoughts on this as well.
Thanks!
Harliquinn: If water wasn't present I'd generally just use Create Water. It wasn't hugely effective until I hit level 3 and could make several gallons at a go.
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Except you'd have to be 500th level to get 5-ft cube of water from that spell :)
John
Well, yes, but that's assuming that you need that much. :) Maybe someone can check my math, but I'm seeing that with 5 cubic feet of water you could make a 'bridge' 2 feet wide, 1 foot thick, and 62.5 feet long (volume of each is 125). It's actually a lot of material when you think about it, more than you'd probably need.
Using Create Water at first level, and our above example ('bridge' 2 feet wide and 1 foot thick) you could make it almost 7 feet in length, with the 'length' doubling every level.
Technically since a ladder has a lot of hollow spaces it could be even longer at earlier levels.
1) No, you control 5 cubic feet of water--it doesn't have to be in a nice neat cube already.
2) You have to be able to move it or it's never going to do anything. It works within 30' of you, so I'm going to say you can move it anywhere within 30' of you in one round.
3) You can encase someone in it, but at that point, it's up to the GM as to what happens because there are no rules to cover it. It definitely wouldn't be like Hold Person, though--you couldn't coup de grace them without breaking the ice.
4) You can do anything you could do with a Slam attack. For example, you can Trip with a Slam attack, but you can't Bullrush or Grapple with it.
5) Yes, it costs an additional round of performance. I can't help but feel that the intention was for you to control it with Watersong, abandon it, then Waterstrike the next turn (since Watersong lasts 1 turn after you stop performing by default). I suspect the original author must have thought you could not spend more than 1 Bardic Performance round per round, so set it up to work alternatingly.
5) Yes, it costs an additional round of performance. I can't help but feel that the intention was for you to control it with Watersong, abandon it, then Waterstrike the next turn (since Watersong lasts 1 turn after you stop performing by default). I suspect the original author must have thought you could not spend more than 1 Bardic Performance round per round, so set it up to work alternatingly.
Forgive me if I'm ignorant to some other rule (I just picked up on Pathfinder with a few friends not too long ago), but isn't it set up this way due to the "one performance at a time" rule? Rereading the basic section on Bards within the core rulebook, it says a Bard can only produce one effect at a time.
I'm mostly confused on the Watersinger myself (when introduced to new things, I tend to go overboard with research so I feel as though I'm certainly overlooking something), but shouldn't it work like:
1) You start the Watersong performance and end your turn.
2) Next turn use a Standard action to switch the performance to Waterstrike.
3) Waterstrike does its business, your turn ends.
4) Next turn, because Watersong is about to expire (if it retains its shape, we can say your performance is still controlling it) you have the option to use a free action to maintain it.
5) Repeat step 2. Watersong gets maintained and Waterstrike does more business.
So if this isn't the way it works, could someone kindly explain why?