wanting to try something a littler different, I made a Sandman Bard. The group groaned.
Why did the group groan? What are they expecting from that rogue? Sounds like they are looking for something specific?
Or is it just damage and trapfinding and they believe only a rogue can handle both?
Maybe they can be convinced that your original idea is viable and they were just being picky?
...native outsider races (Planetouched and the like)...are proficient with all martial weapons, which is a commonly ignored ability...
That is no longer true in Pathfinder. The developers specifically ruled against it.
That is no longer true in Pathfinder. The developers specifically ruled against it....native outsider races (Planetouched and the like)...are proficient with all martial weapons, which is a commonly ignored ability...
Do you have a link to that, RD? I believe you -- and agree with the ruling -- but I just looked at the creature rules in the PRD and it does not list that stipulation in the native subtype description. The only exception to an outsider's proficiency is "unless otherwise noted" and the 0 HD native outsider races don't note anything about proficiencies.
Maybe it's that any 0 HD creature gets proficiency via character class but I can't find that either...
This is what I was able to find on short notice. Per usual, it's all my fault. ^_^
This is what I was able to find on short notice. Per usual, it's all my fault. ^_^
All that is is a link to James Jacobs' profile...
Most non-light simple weapons are better than the rapier if you build a strength-based rogue, because you can swing them two-handed for more power attack and strength damage.
That's odd. It used to link to an old thread I had started in which I had asked about aasimar/outsider proficiencies, to which James responded with "aasimar don't get proficiencies as outsiders." <-- paraphrased from memory
EDIT: I found this, but I don't think it's the same thread.
You may get Trapfinding with other classes and archetypes but only two can get Trapspotter, which in a world with Gygaxian dungeons full of deadly traps will be needed.
Try a half-orc Scout with falchion, all you have to do is charge or later move 10' to get SA. And, you build up to Spring attack and Viola!- SA every round.
That's odd. It used to link to an old thread I had started in which I had asked about aasimar/outsider proficiencies, to which James responded with "aasimar don't get proficiencies as outsiders." <-- paraphrased from memory
EDIT: I found this, but I don't think it's the same thread.
James deleted that ruling because i think he retracted it
Planetouched recieving proficiency in all martial weapons is truly no more powerful than the races with weapon familiarity or the tengu's swordtrained.
you only really have 2 hands, so at most, you are using 1 or 2 of those weapons.
so really, it doesn't matter how many martial or exotic weapons you a proficient with
but the tengu, elf, dwarf, orc, half orc, gnome, half elf, hobgoblin, drow, svirfneblin, and i beleive duergar get a bunch of martial and exotic weapons. hell, the tengu gets the katana, wakazashi, falcata, curve blade, and nodachi. any of these i'd rate better than most martial weapons.
it is just, the Aasimaar, Tiefling, Fetchling, Suli, Undine, Ifrit, Sylph and Oread, have their own weapon familiarity trait by virtue of creature type, that while being redundant for a large variety of classes that could benefit, helps certain 3/4 bab classes, but the previous list gets exotics these 8 don't get.
the tengu has the strongest weapon familiarity traits in the game
planetouched have an easily replaceable, slightly more versatile, and slightly less focused weapon familiarity by virtue of being outsiders
nothing is said about the native subtype being an exception
the Eidolon is a highly specific exception. but then, big E is loaded with rules exceptions left and right
You may get Trapfinding with other classes and archetypes but only two can get Trapspotter, which in a world with Gygaxian dungeons full of deadly traps will be needed.
Try a half-orc Scout with falchion, all you have to do is charge or later move 10' to get SA. And, you build up to Spring attack and Viola!- SA every round.
Archaeologist can get it
so can crypt breaker
though back in the Gygaxian Era, there was no trapspotter, Gygaxian rogues literally rolled to search every square until they got a 20 and slowed the games down, modern rogues do that too.
It used to link to an old thread I had started in which I had asked about aasimar/outsider proficiencies, to which James responded with "aasimar don't get proficiencies as outsiders." <-- paraphrased from memory
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It used to link to an old thread I had started in which I had asked about aasimar/outsider proficiencies, to which James responded with "aasimar don't get proficiencies as outsiders." <-- paraphrased from memory
That's it! Thanks.
James deleted that ruling because i think he retracted it
Proof? It sure looks like it's still there to me.
It used to link to an old thread I had started in which I had asked about aasimar/outsider proficiencies, to which James responded with "aasimar don't get proficiencies as outsiders." <-- paraphrased from memoryThat's it! Thanks.
James deleted that ruling because i think he retracted itProof? It sure looks like it's still there to me.
i'm merely guessing until i saw it later
but the outsider type states that all outsiders gain the outsider traits unless stated otherwise
darkvision and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, none of the planetouched have an entry to contradict this
in fact, the humanoids entry, specifically adds the following clause "or by character class."
this clause does not show up on the outsider proficiencies
note the difference in the humanoid listing and the outsider one
You may get Trapfinding with other classes and archetypes but only two can get Trapspotter, which in a world with Gygaxian dungeons full of deadly traps will be needed.
Try a half-orc Scout with falchion, all you have to do is charge or later move 10' to get SA. And, you build up to Spring attack and Viola!- SA every round.
Archaeologist can get it
so can crypt breaker
though back in the Gygaxian Era, there was no trapspotter, Gygaxian rogues literally rolled to search every square until they got a 20 and slowed the games down, modern rogues do that too.
Yes, that's two.
Umm, no. You simply set up a standard search procedure. That was the equivalent of trap spotter. You couldn't "get a 20" as it wasn't a d20 system and Thief skills didn't work like that. I played starting with OD&D and even wrote stuff for the game back then. That wasn't how a thief found traps at all. And, there were no 'squares" either.
Now, sure in PF you might have a lenient DM that allows you also to set up a std search proc and go without trap-spotter and if so, great. But that's not how the standard rules go now.
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note the difference in the humanoid listing and the outsider one
It seems to me that the PRD was never updated, as that's how the outsider read up appears in bestiary 1. Starting with Bestiary 2 they removed the weapon and armor proficiency from the creature type. Trust me, I thought I'd struck gold for my aasimar oracle there, but a little more looking around made me come to the realization that it was a little too good.
You may get Trapfinding with other classes and archetypes but only two can get Trapspotter, which in a world with Gygaxian dungeons full of deadly traps will be needed.
Try a half-orc Scout with falchion, all you have to do is charge or later move 10' to get SA. And, you build up to Spring attack and Viola!- SA every round.
Archaeologist can get it
so can crypt breaker
though back in the Gygaxian Era, there was no trapspotter, Gygaxian rogues literally rolled to search every square until they got a 20 and slowed the games down, modern rogues do that too.
Yes, that's two.
Umm, no. You simply set up a standard search procedure. That was the equivalent of trap spotter. You couldn't "get a 20" as it wasn't a d20 system and Thief skills didn't work like that. I played starting with OD&D and even wrote stuff for the game back then. That wasn't how a thief found traps at all. And, there were no 'squares" either.
Now, sure in PF you might have a lenient DM that allows you also to set up a std search proc and go without trap-spotter and if so, great. But that's not how the standard rules go now.
i have no problems with standard procedures
it is no different than saying "i cast mage armor, greater magic weapon, and greater magic vestment every morning."
It seems to me that the PRD was never updated, as that's how the outsider read up appears in bestiary 1. Starting with Bestiary 2 they removed the weapon and armor proficiency from the creature type. Trust me, I thought I'd struck gold for my aasimar oracle there, but a little more looking around made me come to the realization that it was a little too good.note the difference in the humanoid listing and the outsider one
it's not that big an ability
all the simple/martial proficiency opens up is options that other races could already get with weapon familiarity, it is easily overlapped, and offers none of the exotic weapons the other races get.
the DPR boost is so minor i allow them to retain that ability and so do a lot of the DMs in my area.
it's no more powerful than what the elf gets, and weaker than what the tengu gets
plus i feel planetouched need a little oomph to look attractive compared to humans, dwarves, half elves, and half orcs
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Even if you have, say, STR 14 and DEX 18, I'd think twice about going with Weapon Finesse. It's a pretty terrible investment.But a 13 Str and 18 Dex makes it look alright. +3 to hit, and adding your Dex to CMB rather than Str.
You need Agile Maneuvers to add Dex to CMB instead of Str. Unless your GM takes attack roll to mean CMB check as well, in which case no one would ever take Agile Maneuvers.
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It seems to me that the PRD was never updated, as that's how the outsider read up appears in bestiary 1. Starting with Bestiary 2 they removed the weapon and armor proficiency from the creature type. Trust me, I thought I'd struck gold for my aasimar oracle there, but a little more looking around made me come to the realization that it was a little too good.note the difference in the humanoid listing and the outsider one
it's not that big an ability
all the simple/martial proficiency opens up is options that other races could already get with weapon familiarity, it is easily overlapped, and offers none of the exotic weapons the other races get.
the DPR boost is so minor i allow them to retain that ability and so do a lot of the DMs in my area.
it's no more powerful than what the elf gets, and weaker than what the tengu gets
plus i feel planetouched need a little oomph to look attractive compared to humans, dwarves, half elves, and half orcs
Actually I tend to agree with you on both points there, all I'm saying is that it's more of a house rule type thing, not something that would fly on a PFS character.
You might as well just go with a martial dip at first level and get all martial weapons for free: you get extra HPs that way by taking full HD HPs at first levels, and with ranger there isn't much difference skill-wise... Obviously you won't have Trapfinding at first level, but you can pick it up the next level.
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You need Agile Maneuvers to add Dex to CMB instead of Str. Unless your GM takes attack roll to mean CMB check as well, in which case no one would ever take Agile Maneuvers.
You activated my Trap card!
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus.
With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls.
You need Agile Maneuvers to calculate your CMD with Dex instead of Str, but either work for CMB.
That... Would also be misleading.
Weapon Finesse work DOESN'T work for adding to CMB in general,
only for certain maneuvers that officially use weapons (when you make said maneuvers with a Finesse Weapon, including UAS).
Weapon Finesse: If I have this feat, can I apply my Dex bonus to my combat maneuver checks instead of my Strength bonus?
It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex).
The Agile Maneuvers feat applies to all combat maneuvers, not just disarm, sunder, and trip, so it is still a useful option for a Dex-based creature that uses combat maneuvers.
—Sean K Reynolds, 10/03/11
There is also a Rules Blog explaining that Trip Weapons ONLY can be used to deliver Drag and Reposition maneuvers "with the weapon", thus using Weapon Finesse if it is a Finesse Weapon (and a Trip Weapon). Why isn't that in the FAQ, and not just some obscure Blog Post? Ask Paizo.
There are also some cases of being able to make a maneuver not on that list using a weapon (e.g. barbarian knockback/bullrush), which Paizo has not specifically addressed, but they did not contest it when the issue was brought up, so if you have such an ability* then it's plausible for Weapon Finesse to be used with those triggered maneuvers if it applied to the weapon used to 'deliver' the maneuver.
* also including grab/grapple, although grab only initiates a grapple: you cannot use weapon finesse for MAINTAINING a grapple even if it was begun via grab/grapple.
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You need Agile Maneuvers to add Dex to CMB instead of Str. Unless your GM takes attack roll to mean CMB check as well, in which case no one would ever take Agile Maneuvers.You activated my Trap card!
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus.With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls.You need Agile Maneuvers to calculate your CMD with Dex instead of Str, but either work for CMB.
Your Dex already applies in CMD, so you don't need Agile Maneuvers for it, but Quandary, you're right I was forgetting that combat maneuvers that actually use your weapon do apply for weapon finesse. They're also the only maneuvers that can be performed as an AoO too, which is a small bonus for weapon finesse as well.
They're also the only maneuvers that can be performed as an AoO too, which is a small bonus for weapon finesse as well.
On a side-note, if you used an AoO to attempt to Disarm an opponent, would that in turn provoke its own AoO, assuming you don't have Improved Disarm or a weapon with a disarm feature?
I like the Gladius...Short Sword profiency but it does either Piercing or Slashing damage...useful vs some DR critters.
Sure, and it resolves just like when a Barbarian with Come and Get Me provokes an AoO, which itself provokes an AoO due to CaGM.
(AoOs interrupt, and resolve before the event triggering it, even if that event is an AoO)
I like the Gladius...Short Sword profiency but it does either Piercing or Slashing damage...useful vs some DR critters.
Indeed, PRPG2.0 should either give the Gladius stats to the Short Sword, or replace the Short Sword with the Gladius.
I believe earlier Editions (2nd?) actually treated Short Swords in that manner.|
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They're also the only maneuvers that can be performed as an AoO too, which is a small bonus for weapon finesse as well.On a side-note, if you used an AoO to attempt to Disarm an opponent, would that in turn provoke its own AoO, assuming you don't have Improved Disarm or a weapon with a disarm feature?
I think it does, making it one of the few actions that can provoke an AoO outside of your turn. I'm not 100% on this but I think that's how it's been ruled at the table.
Finesse Rogue is probably the most taken rogue talent I know of, maxing DEX and using light weapons is really the best way to go. The feat Piranha Strike replaces Power Attack in builds that base around DEX and light weapons, and the feat also makes it possible to dump STR for two reasons: one; it replaces power attack meaning you no longer have to buy in a 13 STR to get the added damage you need from playing a MAD class, and two; the added damage from piranha strike literally equals out with buying in a higher DEX and dumping STR as soon as you get it at 3rd level (or 2nd if you cheese some retraining) and pays off more later on when not only does it net more damage, but your DEX will have been bought in higher resulting in higher DPR from the Agile Weapons as soon as you get them, meaning your DPR will almost literally double (at least from weapon damage, sneak attack variables will remain pretty much the same).
Rapiers are also martial weapons, meaning you can't dual wield them, and if you plan on taking weapon focus, then you would have to have it on rapier and another weapon, that happens to be light, or you could just wield two of the same light weapon.
I'm a big fan of the dagger. It's light, so it's handier in a grapple. You can dual-wield and take Weapon Focus and get the same bonus for both weapons, while taking only light weapon off-hand penalties. Your Weapon focus also applies to thrown daggers.
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You could take a Tengu and give up the weapon training for a pair of claws. The build does have problem keeping up at higher levels, especially if you can't take multiattack or are facing a lot of DR. But you can use a standard archetype rogue, so no giving up trap finding or uncanny dodge, and you get 3 attacks at first level, and your claws apply as improved unarmed strike for the purpose of feats, which opens up certain monk styles.
It's not the most optimized build, but being able to fight as a tengu in Crane style and be able to do 3 attacks with 2d6 sneak each at lvl 3 is pretty fun. Plus you'll still be able to disarm traps and are always considered armed, so handy for those lvl 1 surprise fights.
You may get Trapfinding with other classes and archetypes but only two can get Trapspotter, which in a world with Gygaxian dungeons full of deadly traps will be needed.
Try a half-orc Scout with falchion, all you have to do is charge or later move 10' to get SA. And, you build up to Spring attack and Viola!- SA every round.
But the OP isn't in a world of Gygaxian dungeons full of deadly traps. He or she is in a specific AP.
I just paged through all six books and could find no magical traps outside of an optional area in book one.
True, PF AP's are mostly devoid of those nasty Gygaxian dungeons full of traps.
Still trap-spotter has been useful in our games, which are all AP based. Trapfinder, no so much.
Reading this thread, has got me thinking that a multi-class between Trapper Ranger and Knifemaster Rogue might be fun. Fight with kukris for the high threat range and get the TWF from being a Ranger. Carry lots of regular daggers for throwing. You would needs lots of assorted weapon blanche for those special opponents.
I haven't really analyzed it. May not be as cool as I think it would be.