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I'm not a fan of 4E or D&D or WOTC that much these days. After being off of D&D since 2008 I don't see myself going back. What I've read of NEXT isn't wowing me or winning me over so there's that.
Do I want them to fail spectacularly? or do I want some sort of crazy battle royale between Paizo and WOTC? HELL NO. I want Paizo to continue with the quality material that they've been putting out. They should be focusing on what THEY want to do and their fans and not competing directly with WOTC and D&D.
I want them to both succeed fantastically. Even more so, I want to see games that succed that have absolutely nothing to do with D20. I don't want roleplaying to be defined by only one or two closely related systems.
Quite frankly, I was far more upset to see White Wolf go under, than I would be for either Paizo, or WOTC. Although I would miss them both. Just as I'd miss Steve Jackson's awesome presence.
Quite frankly, I was far more upset to see White Wolf go under, than I would be for either Paizo, or WOTC. Although I would miss them both. Just as I'd miss Steve Jackson's awesome presence.
While White Wolf is no longer doing Pen and Paper rpgs, Onyx Path Publishing is doing stuff for the WoD and other White Wolf games. I am real eager for Exalted 3e myself, only two months away.
Eh, I really wouldn't make it a vs. thing. Honestly, I want both to succeed. And I'd rather the market get to the point so it's not a zero sum game where one company has to gobble up the customer base of the other in order to survive. I'd rather the market grows so they both can succeed!
I think Paizo does a great job, and I'm super happy about their success. But Hasbro has a very valuable brand in D&D, and I'd rather they succeed as well.
Hasbro is big enough and the D&D name is iconic enough that they're not going to sell the brand - it's too valuable. If they decide to mothball it, they're going to keep it under wraps until they think they can pull it out, shake it off, and wave it around again for money in a decade or so.
I didn't enjoy 4th edition as a whole, but there were elements I did like, and I played a longstanding campaign in it because my friends were playing it - and we had some good times and got some great stories out of it, despite it not being my favorite system.
The developers at D&D are real people, doing their best to turn out a quality product people will like. We could argue about whether we agree with what their audience will like, but these are real people with real jobs and real lives. I'm rooting for their success, not failure.
In order to make it so both can succeed, make it a point to try to grow the hobby. Do your part to make it so there's enough room and money for everyone!
Yeah I agree with Jess here.
I'm not a fan of 4E or D&D or WOTC that much these days. After being off of D&D since 2008 I don't see myself going back. What I've read of NEXT isn't wowing me or winning me over so there's that.
Do I want them to fail spectacularly? or do I want some sort of crazy battle royale between Paizo and WOTC? HELL NO. I want Paizo to continue with the quality material that they've been putting out. They should be focusing on what THEY want to do and their fans and not competing directly with WOTC and D&D.
Back in...
Paizo makes great material but they are kind of restricted by the 3.x rule set which being blunt only looks good when compared to 4th ed.
Since 2008 and the player nase fragmentation not every 3rd ed fan went to PF and right now there seems to be an OSR revival going on and Ultimate Campaign was the last PF PDF I bought but I have been spending more money on retroclones. I would rather play Adventurer Conquer King at level 10+ than PF and the PF APs I have played still suck at level 10+ and are to easy/boring because of the power creep Paizo added to the game for the non spellcasters. Good for the martial players but monsters more or less just suck.
I do not really have the time that I did 10+ years ago to put into 3.x and Pathfinder is just a dressed up 3.5 retroclone at the end of the day.
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I think Numeria is something that is just popular with a (very) vocal group of forumites. Advanced Class Guide won't be as major a release as Mythic. I think the "next big gun" will likely be psionics. Pathfinder modern would be huge also, but less likely.
I am way, waaaay more excited already about the Advanced Class Guide than I have been about Mythic Adventures. So, personally for me the ACG is a bigger release.
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Eh, I really wouldn't make it a vs. thing. Honestly, I want both to succeed. And I'd rather the market get to the point so it's not a zero sum game where one company has to gobble up the customer base of the other in order to survive. I'd rather the market grows so they both can succeed!
I think Paizo does a great job, and I'm super happy about their success. But Hasbro has a very valuable brand in D&D, and I'd rather they succeed as well.
Hasbro is big enough and the D&D name is iconic enough that they're not going to sell the brand - it's too valuable. If they decide to mothball it, they're going to keep it under wraps until they think they can pull it out, shake it off, and wave it around again for money in a decade or so.
I didn't enjoy 4th edition as a whole, but there were elements I did like, and I played a longstanding campaign in it because my friends were playing it - and we had some good times and got some great stories out of it, despite it not being my favorite system.
The developers at D&D are real people, doing their best to turn out a quality product people will like. We could argue about whether we agree with what their audience will like, but these are real people with real jobs and real lives. I'm rooting for their success, not failure.
In order to make it so both can succeed, make it a point to try to grow the hobby. Do your part to make it so there's enough room and money for everyone!
Extremely well said.
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I think Numeria is something that is just popular with a (very) vocal group of forumites. Advanced Class Guide won't be as major a release as Mythic. I think the "next big gun" will likely be psionics. Pathfinder modern would be huge also, but less likely.Paizo may even take the tack of going quiet with stuff next year knowing 5e is gonna be big and loud, and save something super awesome for the year after when WotC won't have a major launch advantage.Given they have announced the Advanced Class guide with 10 new base classes, as well as the numeria (place where there is a giant spaceship crashed) adventure path for next gencon, I think its hard to say they are being quiet. There is going to be a major playtest going up to the advanced players guide, and there has been a strong call for numeria material for some time now, which is likely to include robots, lazers and aliens. Thats about as loud and splashy as it gets from paizo.
Considering that Distant Worlds was one of the best-selling campaign setting books so far, I guess the amount of robot-n-lazor fans is far bigger than you think :)
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I am way, waaaay less excited already about the Advanced Class Guide than I have been about Mythic Adventures. MA was the first book of higher-powered content we got in quite awhile. I'm less excited about 10 new classes--I feel like there are already a LOT of classes when you put together all the current Paizo books, the WotC books, the 3rd party books, the 3.0 books...almost all of them had classes in them. I might buy the ACG, and I'll definetly use the classes in it, but it doesn't give me the same level of excitement as Mythic.I think Numeria is something that is just popular with a (very) vocal group of forumites. Advanced Class Guide won't be as major a release as Mythic. I think the "next big gun" will likely be psionics. Pathfinder modern would be huge also, but less likely.I am way, waaaay more excited already about the Advanced Class Guide than I have been about Mythic Adventures. So, personally for me the ACG is a bigger release.
I'm very sure that the ACG classes will see much more use than the Mythic Adventures content ever will among most groups.
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That does not make it a bigger or more newsworthy release. It is like putting out a cool new invention tool with very niche applications vs putting out a different kind of screwdriver. I am not trying to put down either product (I am interested in ACG but would have preferred more PrCs not more base dlasses). Just neither is something you expect to stand toe to toe with. 5e.
From what I have seen of 5e it will be big next year because it is 5e but in 2015 all eyes will have turned back to paizo. It is not good enough to take back the D&D reigns.
That does not make it a bigger or more newsworthy release. It is like putting out a cool new invention tool with very niche applications vs putting out a different kind of screwdriver. I am not trying to put down either product (I am interested in ACG but would have preferred more PrCs not more base dlasses). Just neither is something you expect to stand toe to toe with. 5e.
From what I have seen of 5e it will be big next year because it is 5e but in 2015 all eyes will have turned back to paizo. It is not good enough to take back the D&D reigns.
Hey, same opinion here on 5E and I honestly doubt it will be good enough to keep the attention on it for even that long.
That being said, short of announcing their own Pathfinder 2.0, I don't think Paizo could do anything to take the hype away from the imminent release of a major new edition of D&D. The ACG is a good effort, however, combined with the Numeria AP. It will keep fans of Paizo focused on Pathfinder.
In regards to PrC's, the book is supposed to be 256 pages and the new classes, even with archetypes, will only take up about 70 to 80 pages of those. That is plenty of room for PrC's and more archetypes for other classes and feats and new spells for the new base classes.
And the ACG by the way is new high-level content. It contains 10 new base classes which go from level one to twenty.
I am much, much, much more exited about the Advanced Classes Guide then all of this mythic stuff combined.
I am really happy we are getting stuff for Numeria but I do agree Castrovel or Akiton would interest me more.
Just neither is something you expect to stand toe to toe with. 5e.
This is subjective. Perhaps not something you expect, but soemthing I definitely think will be competitive. And that's assuming Paizo are "competing". Perhaps just following their long term strategy and not trying to buy into hyped edition wars.
I for one am very psyched to see mention of Iron Gods AND the ACG. I am vaguely interested in WotC's release of a new edition of the game I have been playing in one form or another for three decades. But really, lots of new options and (finally) an homage to Expedition to the Barrier Peaks with all the Pathfinder options is much more intrguing, interesting and exciting than a reboot of all the old classic classes and monsters of DnD. Rebootclone of a retroclone. And I like plenty of things about 4e. And 3.5. And 1e. And Chainmail. And BEC (not so much MI). :)
Wheelie sleds for all!!!!
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there is no Z in Laser people!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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ugh, no one seems to understanf that I am talking about press attention, hype, newsworthiness and new player attraction NOT about preaching to the converted. Mythic and Worldwound was far more newsworthy than ACG or Numeria will be hence they will be going into 2014 with a quieter release against 5e. I think it is intentional, they want to save the newsmaker products for the year after 5e launches when 5e will have to stand on its own and won't be the "brand new D&D edition"
I must agree with magnuskn here. To me, the Advanced Class Guide is the much bigger release than Mythic Adventures. It will sell far more, and it will have a much bigger impact on most campaing as well as on subsequent Paizo releases and on the the game as a whole.
To be honest, Mythic Adventures is—the Worldwound AP not withstanding—effectively a niche product.
ugh, no one seems to understanf that I am talking about press attention, hype, newsworthiness and new player attraction NOT about preaching to the converted. Mythic and Worldwound was far more newsworthy than ACG or Numeria will be hence they will be going into 2014 with a quieter release against 5e. I think it is intentional, they want to save the newsmaker products for the year after 5e launches when 5e will have to stand on its own and won't be the "brand new D&D edition"
Nonetheless, Paizo needs something strong to keep their player base from wandering off to the new, shiny game. And the ACG and Numeria AP are strong. 5E will overshadow them with its release hype, sure, but not so much that it will be overwhelming, thanks to those products.
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Mythic and Worldwound was far more newsworthy than ACG or Numeria will be
Again. Subjective. I disagree entirely. I for one am not the converted, either. And you are still implying that Paizo is tacitly competing. Yes they are both in competition, by being in the same industry. Beyond that, speculation.
To put into perspective how popular Mythic so far is: I am by myself keeping up with the majority of the questions of the Q&A thread which inevitably pops up after a new hardcover crunch book is released and it hasn't passed the 200 posts mark yet six days after the books release.
To put into perspective how popular Mythic so far is: I am by myself keeping up with the majority of the questions of the Q&A thread which inevitably pops up after a new hardcover crunch book is released and it hasn't passed the 200 posts mark yet six days after the books release.
is that a lot? or are you saying its not all that much? hard to tell from your wording:)
one angle they might be taking is:
You can switch to this new game (DnDnext), which maybe will have only 4 player classes
OR
you can stick with/get back into/start playing Pathfinder, which now has 30+ options for characters.
I agree that the Mythic is probably a more exciting release to me, as (with the information provided so far), the ACG doesn't really look like it breaks new ground. On the other hand, they might want to go with a conservative product for the release of the Numeria adventure path, which face it is a much riskier move than prior Gencon AP releases.
At any rate...DnDnext seems like they are shooting to grab 1E/2E fans more than any other group. I don't see WoTC or Paizo trying to fight for the same niche.
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I never implied it wasn't subjective or speculative. Suggesting that Lisa and Vic aren't competing with WotC is absurd though, WotC is certainly competing with them.
To put into perspective how popular Mythic so far is: I am by myself keeping up with the majority of the questions of the Q&A thread which inevitably pops up after a new hardcover crunch book is released and it hasn't passed the 200 posts mark yet six days after the books release.
As a subscriber my copy hasn't even arrived yet (though I expect it today or tomorrow the latest). I would give that another week or two. Regardless, I am talking about prerelease hype/attention at gencon. Mythic will have gotten more than ACG will even discounting the presence of 5e next year.
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I think Numeria is something that is just popular with a (very) vocal group of forumites. Advanced Class Guide won't be as major a release as Mythic. I think the "next big gun" will likely be psionics. Pathfinder modern would be huge also, but less likely.
Psionics fans have been asking for psionic content, ever since the PFRPG was first suggested, and the Paizo staff have continuously given a lukewarm response (at best).
Since Dreamscarred Press took up the reins of psionic content, the (maybe unofficial) Paizo response has been that any interested players should use that, and that the existence of Dreamscarred content means there's even less reason for Paizo to touch the subject.Don't split the market, confuse the player base, etc.
Similarly, there have been PF Modern rulesets from other publishers, such as Avalon Design Company ('The Modern Path').
While none of this prevents Paizo from creating their own take, it makes things more difficult.
Each would need to be different enough from the existing 3rd party rules, to be worthwhile ("Too similar, and there's no point doing it."), but at the same time, anything too different would mean that GMs couldn't mix up official and 3rd party content, thus, not appealing to the exact demographic that has spent years tweaking their game (and campaign worlds) with the existing 3pp material.
Paizo is not going to do psionics, however they will do psychic magic at some point so that they can do more with Vudra. Psychic Magic working like divine or arcane (vancian), but named differently so that if you want to use psionics with it or in place of it you can.
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Hasbro is big enough and the D&D name is iconic enough that they're not going to sell the brand - it's too valuable. If they decide to mothball it, they're going to keep it under wraps until they think they can pull it out, shake it off, and wave it around again for money in a decade or so.
I would imagine that there's a LOT more money in licensing the D&D brand than there is in actually producing the RPG.
Well we do need rules for psychic magic to do Vudra but also for Castrovel and more then likely several other places in the Golarion solar system. But Mr. James Jacobs said that psychic magic is not going to be in the Advanced Classes Guide.
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Hasbro is big enough and the D&D name is iconic enough that they're not going to sell the brand - it's too valuable. If they decide to mothball it, they're going to keep it under wraps until they think they can pull it out, shake it off, and wave it around again for money in a decade or so.I would imagine that there's a LOT more money in licensing the D&D brand than there is in actually producing the RPG.
And Hasbro has the money to take the long view on property like that - they can hold on to well known brands, even if they don't do anything with it for a while. If D&D totally flops to the point it pisses off Hasbro enough for them to shut down tabletop RPG production for a while, they're not going to sell the brand. So it's much better for the tabletop RPG market if D&D comes back strong and keeps itself in the collective conciousness of the culture, in my opinion.
Well we do need rules for psychic magic to do Vudra but also for Castrovel and more then likely several other places in the Golarion solar system. But Mr. James Jacobs said that psychic magic is not going to be in the Advanced Classes Guide.
Right, he said at GenCon it will be awhile yet before we get psychic magic.
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To put into perspective how popular Mythic so far is: I am by myself keeping up with the majority of the questions of the Q&A thread which inevitably pops up after a new hardcover crunch book is released and it hasn't passed the 200 posts mark yet six days after the books release.
Keep in mind a lot of subscription and the like are behind because of various reasons (including Gencon) so a fair number of people may not have it yet.
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Paizo is not going to do psionics, however they will do psychic magic at some point so that they can do more with Vudra. Psychic Magic working like divine or arcane (vancian), but named differently so that if you want to use psionics with it or in place of it you can.
This is, to me, about the worst way to do psychic magic possible.
I know they aren't going to do power points. Mr. Jacobs has made that clear to me - personally even! - several times on these boards. But I'd vastly - vastly - prefer something other than yet another Vancian variant. And from most everything I hear from fellow psionic, psychic, etc. fans, I'm not alone.
My own strong hope is that they go the Monk and Ninja ki route, using the Qinggong monk archetype as a basic template for how to accomplish such a thing as magic with Ki points.
Anyway, /psionic tangent
To put into perspective how popular Mythic so far is: I am by myself keeping up with the majority of the questions of the Q&A thread which inevitably pops up after a new hardcover crunch book is released and it hasn't passed the 200 posts mark yet six days after the books release.is that a lot? or are you saying its not all that much? hard to tell from your wording:)
Unless I remember incorrectly, the Q&A threads for the APG, Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat quickly shot up to immense size.
To put into perspective how popular Mythic so far is: I am by myself keeping up with the majority of the questions of the Q&A thread which inevitably pops up after a new hardcover crunch book is released and it hasn't passed the 200 posts mark yet six days after the books release.Keep in mind a lot of subscription and the like are behind because of various reasons (including Gencon) so a fair number of people may not have it yet.
Which is kind of the point of the Q&A thread I opened: To give out info for people who don't have the book yet. The past threads on the three big crunch books were done in much the same way.
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I must agree with magnuskn here. To me, the Advanced Class Guide is the much bigger release than Mythic Adventures. It will sell far more, and it will have a much bigger impact on most campaing as well as on subsequent Paizo releases and on the the game as a whole.
More anecdotal evidence here:
I don't think a single member of the players from my tabletop group is picking up Mythic Adventures, and a good number of the PFS folks I play with haven't jumped on it yet.
Everyone seems content with the non-mythic flavor of the game.
However, an ACG that includes a swashbuckler, a psion, a tinker, or whatever class-du-jour that an individual player feels the crunch has failed to provide them a method to achieve - will mostly certainly be purchased while the print and paper is still warm.
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Paizo makes great material but they are kind of restricted by the 3.x rule set which being blunt only looks good when compared to 4th ed.
Since 2008 and the player nase fragmentation not every 3rd ed fan went to PF and right now there seems to be an OSR revival going on and Ultimate Campaign was the last PF PDF I bought but I have been spending more money on retroclones. I would rather play Adventurer Conquer King at level 10+ than PF and the PF APs I have played still suck at level 10+ and are to easy/boring because of the power creep Paizo added to the game for the non spellcasters. Good for the martial players but monsters more or less just suck.
I do not really have the time that I did 10+ years ago to put into 3.x and Pathfinder is just a dressed up 3.5 retroclone at the end of the day.
Yeah, in the same way that 2nd Ed D&D was a dressed up 1E Retroclone?
Please.
The OSR revival has been going on for YEARS. People have been saying "Ugh. 3.5 is TOO MUCH I want something simpler" FOR YEARS. Second verse, same as the first. That's fine. If you want something simpler you should GO DO THAT. I can't tell you what's fun for you.
The rest of us who like Pathfinder will be right here running and playing the game that we like.
It's weird, because somehow I can dislike other games without going on their boards and trolling them about how much their game and material sucks. Live and let live I guess.
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Wewll I have been buying Paizo material since 2002. Probably longer than most people here on the forums. Back in 2002 I loved 3.x these days not so much.
If WoTC somehow manages to make a good verison of D&D the danger for Paizo is a certain % of their playerbase is probably playing PF because it is not 4E. Thanks Paizo for keeping the seat warm sort of thing.
The last play test packet for D&DN was not awful and it had some great ideas in it. If D&DN doesn't suck and if it is easier to run than PF Paizo may have a major problem on their hands.
WoTC also looks like it is goign to come out swinging with the D&D game worlds and they are going to use the 5 most popular ones and they are putting a lot of effort into fixing the Realms. Golarion is good but at the end of the day its not the Realms. Eberron, Realms, Dragonlance seem to be the 3 all put confirmed D&D game worlds, the last 2 popular bets seem split up between Darksun, Planescape and Ravenloft as the leading contenders and OGL stuff can't touch them. They also seem to have woken up to the fact that the old TSR adventures were the biggest selling items in the games history so updating them or turning them into an adventure path if done well could work.
IDK how D&DN may end up but it could sink PF easily enough and gamers are a fickle bunch. Go read old threads from 2007 and what people thought about 3.x outselling 4th ed, or Sony dropping the ball with the PS3 relative to the PS2.
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There's no doubt that D&D:Next is a potential threat to Pathfinder's dominance. Nonetheless, Paizo's best 'defence' (in my opinion) is to continue their focus on quality, engagement with the playerbase and innovation. Ultimately, being number one isnt terribly meaningful. I'd be willing to bet that continuing to grow, innovate and create product they can be proud of is far more important to Paizo.
None of us have any clue as to the actual state of affairs - our sample sizes are all too tiny and hopelessly skewed. Nonetheless, my personal prejudice is that the number of people buying Paizo stuff reluctantly (ie waiting until something better comes along) is pretty small. 4E clearly drove some customers Paizo's way but I suspect quality is what keeps people spending money.
Business leaders are mad if they dont keep an eye on trends within the markets in which they operate, but they shouldnt spend all their time trying to outfox or counter the opposition (unless they're selling essentials or something). Being proactive is far better than being reactive.
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Wewll I have been buying Paizo material since 2002. Probably longer than most people here on the forums. Back in 2002 I loved 3.x these days not so much.
If WoTC somehow manages to make a good verison of D&D the danger for Paizo is a certain % of their playerbase is probably playing PF because it is not 4E. Thanks Paizo for keeping the seat warm sort of thing.
The last play test packet for D&DN was not awful and it had some great ideas in it. If D&DN doesn't suck and if it is easier to run than PF Paizo may have a major problem on their hands.
WoTC also looks like it is goign to come out swinging with the D&D game worlds and they are going to use the 5 most popular ones and they are putting a lot of effort into fixing the Realms. Golarion is good but at the end of the day its not the Realms. Eberron, Realms, Dragonlance seem to be the 3 all put confirmed D&D game worlds, the last 2 popular bets seem split up between Darksun, Planescape and Ravenloft as the leading contenders and OGL stuff can't touch them. They also seem to have woken up to the fact that the old TSR adventures were the biggest selling items in the games history so updating them or turning them into an adventure path if done well could work.
IDK how D&DN may end up but it could sink PF easily enough and gamers are a fickle bunch. Go read old threads from 2007 and what people thought about 3.x outselling 4th ed, or Sony dropping the ball with the PS3 relative to the PS2.
I agree with you that there are a few fans who are using Pathfinder as a placeholder game. I'm not one of them. I'm also willing to bet that most of the people who frequent the board are actual Paizo and Pathfinder fans and not fairweather fans.
I have no interest in D&DNEXT / 5E or whatever it's going to be called. The last time I spent money on a WOTC Product were the adventure games (Castle Ravenloft, Wrath of Ashardolon and Legend of Drzzt) which on their own were kinda fun. But they've effectively lost me as far as RPG's go.
And honestly I ABHOR the Realms. Granted I still have my original Grey Boxed set materials and the Realms articles in Dragon were great. But once fans started becoming obsessed with it and the literature and cannon became so invasive. BLARGH. I have no inclination to ever play in or run a Realms game. I like Golarion because it's exactly the type of game world that I'd put together if I could. and also the world isn't defined by the literature it's defined by THE ADVENTURES. I'll take that any day over any of the other settings (except Greyhawk, love Greyhawk...).
You can have the old TSR settings. I'm not going anywhere. Again here's the thing that I don't understand: I've been playing D&D since Red Box basic. I've literally spent THOUSANDS of DOLLARS during 3rd Edition alone never mind the editions prior. WOTC lost me with 4E. And I have no interest in 5E or NEXT. Should I be on WOTC's boards telling them how much I don't like their game any more?
I'm not hinting that you shouldn't be here. I'm saying: What's the point of being here if your sole purpose seem to be telling Paizo that they're going to lose their fanbase because their game sucks.
Paizo is a great company and their product rocks in terms of production value. Sure there are some fanatic Paizoites but lets say for example.
1 3rd like Pathfinder because they lkike Paizo, Lisa Etc
1/3rd like Pathfinder because they like 3.x/adventure paths
1/3rd like PF because it is not 4th ed.
Losing one third of your revenue could elikminate all of your profit. Now 1/3rd may only be 1-% or whatever.
I liked Paizo because of the quality of Dungeon magazine I was buying back in 2002 and because 4E was terribru. I like Golarion but I'm not such a fan of 3.x anymore and I was never a fan of WAR artwork even when he was doing covers in Dungeon.
I don't expect Paizo to cater to me perosnal needs and it would be stupid of them to do so. But if WoTC actually makes a half decent version of D&D Paizo could be in trouble. D&DN could also be good but still tank because of marketing, inertia with PF/PFS IDK. Paizo did kind of get lucky with a free run due to how bad 4E was IMHO.
The other thing is I have close to 90 odd 3.x books now I do not really need anymore hence why UC is probably my last PF purchase outside APs.
The real question isn't what Paizo needs to do to compete with D&D Next, it's whether WotC will ever have an Exhibitor Hall presence again.
Wow. Hyperbole, much? There is literally no chance that Wizards of the Coast will not have a presence in the Exhibitor Hall next year. 0% chance (barring the cancellation of GenCon or the catastrophic dissolution of Hasbro itself).
Did anyone see the Dungeons of Dragonspear Castle book that's supposedly Next's "first impression" unveiling?
That wasn't D&D Next's unveiling. It was a promotional product designed to be an exclusive perk for GenCon attendees, with sales handled by a completely separate company.
I stumbled across it in an abandoned corner of somebody else's booth, completely ignored by all attendees, and without a single sign saying what it was.
That's because sales were handled by Galeforce 9, and most sales of Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle were carried out via preorder. The actual D&D Next focus of GenCon was Murder at Baldur's Gate. Which was, according to reports from coverage of the con, incredibly popular. One report said that nearly 5,000 people played D&D Next during the event. It was released to the public today. It is already sold out on Amazon.
Five years ago my hope was that 4th Ed would fail and Hasbro would sell D&D to Paizo. I got my first wish
The only people under the impression that D&D 4e qualifies as a failure are rabidly anti-4e people like yourself who really, really wanted it to be true (as you noted). The reality is that D&D 4e was probably successful in a business sense, but that they decided the 4e line had reached the end of its run and should be replaced by something that would be more successful going forward.
Dungeons & Dragons is destined to become the Chainmail of our generation.
...said 2e fans in 2000, and 3e fans in 2003, and 3.5 fans in 2008...
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Paizo is a great company and their product rocks in terms of production value. Sure there are some fanatic Paizoites but lets say for example.
1 3rd like Pathfinder because they lkike Paizo, Lisa Etc
1/3rd like Pathfinder because they like 3.x/adventure paths
1/3rd like PF because it is not 4th ed.Losing one third of your revenue could elikminate all of your profit. Now 1/3rd may only be 1-% or whatever.
I liked Paizo because of the quality of Dungeon magazine I was buying back in 2002 and because 4E was terribru. I like Golarion but I'm not such a fan of 3.x anymore and I was never a fan of WAR artwork even when he was doing covers in Dungeon.
I don't expect Paizo to cater to me personal needs and it would be stupid of them to do so. But if WoTC actually makes a half decent version of D&D Paizo could be in trouble. D&DN could also be good but still tank because of marketing, inertia with PF/PFS IDK. Paizo did kind of get lucky with a free run due to how bad 4E was IMHO.
The other thing is I have close to 90 odd 3.x books now I do not really need anymore hence why UC is probably my last PF purchase outside APs.
I like Paizo BECAUSE it's a small company and not a publicly held one.
I like Pathfinder because it's a 3.5 variant and I love the Adventure PathsI dont care about WOTC or D&D anymore so that doesn't even factor in.
If RPG's are going to lose me to anything right now it's boardgames. Which are easier to setup and get started on the fly. I just dropped something like $160 on Super Dungeon Explore and Zombiecide on Amazon. A few weeks ago I purchased Pandemic. I'm dusting off Munchkin, Settlers and (ironically) the 3 D&D Adventure Boardgames for a series of Game Nights in Sept, October and August.
Still I've been a AP subscriber and a RPG subscriber since the beginning. I have faith in Paizo. I love their product. I love the direction that they're going in. I intend to follow them until they truly screw the pooch or I cant afford their product anymore.
Went looking out of interest and found some more info on the adventure:
WotC Product Listing
Details on Kit
Game Store Opinion Piece
$35 for a 64 page setting book, 32 page adventure and a DM screen.
There's also a couple of web enhancements with the monster stats (presented in 3.5, 4th and Next) and extra encounters.
Looks like it'll run from August 21 through to November 13th, which when you smear the $35 across the full time period it works out to a few dollars a week.
It's interesting - I like the fact that WotC seem to be coming out with some more fluff based material (the 64 page setting part) but I'm not sure if carrying all three recent versions of the game will be the best way to get people engaging with Next.
Has anyone actually got the adventure itself?
WotC has a bad history of edition dumping.
If pathfinder proves to be more consistent that will be more than enough reason for me to stick with paizo.
My group was considering moving to 4th from 3.5, but decided not to when we saw that WotC was already making 5e.
From there we decided to move to pathfinder.
That ediiton dumping has bit them in the ass IMHO. I want Paizo to make a PF 2 one day (2-4 years down the track) but I want it to be a fixed 3.5 rather than making an entirely new game. They can nerf the broken spells into oblivion and try and fix high level play which stops me from buying Paizo APs as the ones I have tried rapidly fall apart at level 10 or so. Also a reason why I dropped $130 on 1st ed last night.
3 times as many people have play tested D&DN though.IDK how well it will be recieved but I don't think it will generate the rage of 2008. The art for D&DN seems to evoke Game of Thrones though at least the sundering part of it.
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How is it going Zard? You really think forgettable realms is way better than Golarion huh? Its no doubt that FR is super popular look at all the rage and focus on it. Guess the proof will be in the product. I think one of the biggest problems 4E had was crappy adventures. If WOTC can come out swinging they better bring the adventures.
Problem with P2 is Paizo would have to do the things WOTC is doing with Next right now. Of course this is all entirely my opinion;
Make the game focus on being MAD
Bounded Accuracy
No more WBL
Modules
etc.
Ultimately it comes down to whether WOTC has learned their lesson. 4E may have been a fine game but they cant take the customer base for granted. Just because you make the game doesn't mean the players will come. You got to sell it and make it look good. Paizo does that like a pro. Their best bet is to sit and wait.
FR was better than Golarion before they wrecked it and I bet it has a higher profile in the non D&D world due to game like Baldurs Gate and novels. Golarion seems heavily influenced by Mystara and Greyhawk to a lesser extent.
Thats why I said Pathfinder 2 in 2-4 years time and IIRC they said they were aiming for 10 years. I won't hold them to that if it is 8 years+ but I'm kind of over the 3-5 year cycle.
Capping ability scores at 20 IMHO would be a good idea for a new 3.x system and it is an idea in D&DN I think is a good one. They should only make a P2 if the majority of their fans want it or if they have no other choice. I think Paizo could design a great 4th ed so to speak.
Let's say the hypothetical 1/3 of the people who went with Pathfinder because it wasn't 4E or related reasons (WOTC marketing, change in presentation of products, etc) is a real thing
Now...I think it's probably a huge assumption that the tastes of all of that made up population of users have the same interests.
I would hazard a guess that the 3.5/3.0 people, who do not seem to be directly courted from what I hear, will probably see no reason to jump over to DnDN.
Similarly the people who were ticked they couldn't use their WoTC material probably won't go over as well. A good chunk of those people will be gunshy on investing a lot into a new game for fear that the edition will be dumped in 4-5 years.
I think the overhaul of the campaign settings has permanently turned off some people as well. They might buy rules but will still buy Paizo material for setting. And if they do decide to support 5 different settings, than they have to divide their campaign setting material they produce between 5 different lines. That is probably in Paizo's favor...despite being a smaller company, they will probably be able to outmatch WoTC in flavor
They will certainly gain new players, some of whom are Paizo customers. Especially (In my completely uneducated opinion)
1E/2E stalwarts
WoTC fans who tend to follow every edition change
People who just really like the settings.
Completely new players.
That still leaves Paizo with the diehard Paizo/Pathfinder fans, 3.5 fans, People who like the Campaign setting but not the rules, new players, and possibly some disgruntled 4E fans. I don't really see a reason why Paizo and Wotc can't coexist. The only customer base I seem them competing over are new players, and currently Pathfinder and 4E seem to be equally represented in bookstores and other non game focused venues.
It depends on what you mean by 3.5 fans I suppose and how much the Paizo fanbase likes high level combat which seems quite unpopular even among 3.x fans. 4E tried to fix it by burning it to the ground my idea of fixed 3.5 was more towards SWSE or the tier 3 classes in 3.5 being the default power level.
Reason I like OSR is because I am burnt out of 3.x (13 years) and if you want an authentic D&D experience and you do not like 4th ed your options are limited. That and after a 10 year break it almost feels new again (played AD&D in 2002 and then again in 2012). 2nd ed is better balanced than 3.x IMHO but it is still borked at higher levels so its not like AD&D or whatever is strictly better than Pathfinder. Its just the major probelms kick in around level 12-14 instead of 9-11 and there are less fiddly bits.
Paizo makes the best 3.x game just not convinced 3.x is the be all and end all of D&D. It is because high level combat in Pathfinder is so terrible I do not buy the Paizo APs as once you hit level 10 or 11 or so I can't be bothered to run the game anymore and I do not want to buy 3/6 APs. I'll quite happily play Pathfinder I just do not want to DM it any more.