Characters trained in Survival always know where north is in relation to themselves, no check required and no listed action needed. Does this pretty much make the Getting Lost rules useless if the party contains a character with 1 rank in Survival? It seems like a hard sell to tell a player that his character has been heading west instead of south for a few hours when said character has a compass in his/her head.
If the character has Survival as a class skill and puts 1 rank in it, and has a wisdom modifier of +1, then he will have a bonus of +5 to survival. Which means so long as he isn't threatened or rushed he can take 10 and will never get lost, as the DC to keep from getting lost is only 15. So yes, the character with 1 rank in survival very likely never gets lost. The character with 2 ranks in survival never gets lost so long as he isn't rushed or threatened and can take 10.
Getting lost sucks. Once had a player whose dwarven paladin got lost in a swamp...over and over and over again. As it turns out, the rules are pretty harsh.
Don't forget weather affects: Cloud cover, fog, rain, etc. Any of those would adjust the Survival check.
At night, it would make it almost impossible to find north when visibility is low.
Starry nights are surprisingly bright in plains and grasslands, especially on a full moon.
Whether adjustments don't automatically impact the DC, the only rule is if the characters can't see 60ft then the DC increases by +4. But a light rain or such isn't going to suddenly get you lost, nor would cloud cover. Fog would since it would block visibility. The rules are pretty well explained in Raving Dork's link.
Not to mention the existence of the Astorlabe and the compass. Together they would provide a +4 bonus to survival checks not to get lost. Players should probably be told such items exist incase for some reason they are unaware of their existence.
|
Hey Claxon,
I didn't comment on clear nights. I agree that with a little knowledge, finding north on a clear night or day is not too challenging...but I did comment on when visibility is low.
Rules are there as a guide. GMs should not take them for holy scripture. The GM can certainly set the DC higher or even say that finding north is impossible if the conditions are poor enough.
The worse case scenario would be to be on the open sea in a storm with no visibility and no instruments. The rules as written would give that a Survival DC of 22, but that is unreasonable. If the characters have no point of reference and their ship is being tossed about, it should be much higher or impossible.
I should point out that while the APG does not say it, the astrolabe depends on the user being able to see a point of reference in the sky such as a star or the sun. With zero visibility, it should not even be usable.
I personally don't allow compasses in my campaign as the tech level of my world is set too early. The astrolabe is an ancient device, so that one is ok.
Yuo don't allow compasses but astorlabes are all right?
You do know you can make a rudimentry compass from a lodestone. The first compasses were invented over 2000 years ago. The earliest astrolabe supposedly existed around 150BC, while the earliest compass supposedly existed in 200 BC. That means the compass existed for roughly 50 years before the astrolabe. The idea that you can have an astrolabe but no compass seems silly to me. Both are infact ancient devices. If you don't have these, are your players also playing with stone age equipment? Because that is the level of technology you're working with at that point.
Your comments about finding north and limited visibility imply that you don't think the +4 penalty for not having 60ft visibility isn't good enough though. I think that if a GM is going to not use the rules as written that something that should be stated in advance so the players are aware. Yes, there is always rules 0, but usually getting lost isn't something that ever comes up because the check is usually trivial by level 2. If you're going to change something like that you're running a very different game from the kind I'm used to. When you talk about things being impossible or not you're talking about your own personal GMing style. Changing the DC is an arbitrary practice in GM fiat. You're basically deciding whether or not you want them to succeed and then just applying whatever penalty you like to make it happen. I would cry foul personally unless you made it known in advance, but mostly because it's not fun to play a game where the party is just aimlessly lost all the time. Not to mention that a druid can have the spell Know Direction as a cantrip. Making the whole thing moot.
If you go hiking and backpacking you might realize that even when possessing a compass you can still become lost. It is same for such a character.
If you go hiking and backpacking you might realize that even when possessing a compass you can still become lost. It is same for such a character.
Indeed in difficult terrain, you can very easily get put off your path because going in a straight line is actually very difficult, so even knowing due north, you can still get sidetracked and moved away from your intended location. That said, as has been pointed out, you dont need a really high bonus to be able to take 10 and not get lost.
If you go hiking and backpacking you might realize that even when possessing a compass you can still become lost. It is same for such a character.Indeed in difficult terrain, you can very easily get put off your path because going in a straight line is actually very difficult, so even knowing due north, you can still get sidetracked and moved away from your intended location. That said, as has been pointed out, you dont need a really high bonus to be able to take 10 and not get lost.
I agree with both of you as far as real life is concerned, but this isn't Hiking: The Role Playing Game. This is Pathfinder, where the point of the game is to kill stuff and collect loot (mostly). I agree that you can get easily lost despite having a compass, but this isn't supposed to be a nitty gritty survival game. It could be run that way, but the rules aren't geared towards that. The rules of this game are, under normal conditions its a DC 15 survival check not to get lost. A character with 1 skill point in survival (with it as a class skill), and a wisdom modifier of 1 can take 10 and make that every single time. Similarly, such a character probably knows when the conditions turn against them that they can't ably navigate anymore and would wait out the storm or whatever has occured.
Also, damn my post last post before this one. I made a ton of grammatical mistakes, but I think its still readable with relatively clear intent.
|
|
Yuo don't allow compasses but astorlabes are all right?
You do know you can make a rudimentary compass from a lodestone.
In China maybe. From what I have read, use of the compass was not widespread in Europe until the late 11th or early 12th century.
By comparison, the tech of my campaign is similar to Europe two to three centuries earlier. I also have no Asian influences (for now). When I decided to start my game, I chose a date in real-world history, extrapolated what the tech and industry would have been in that time in various regions and cultures, and then made adjustments for how I could see magic affecting both. I then threw out materials that would not have been available.
I think that if a GM is going to not use the rules as written that something that should be stated in advance so the players are aware.
Absolutely. Every GM should tell their players that there will be times when they will adjust the difficulties based on the situation. They don't need to necessarily state what the numbers are, but they should describe it well and be consistent.
...and it is not arbitrary fiat if a GM judges that a situation is more difficult if there are reasons behind it. "Arbitrary" would be if the GM had no reason other then "he wants to". My suggestions for adjusting the DC beyond what the book describes is based on actual reasoning.
There is also nothing wrong with deciding that a particular check is impossible if the GM determines that the check is just too difficult.
I would cry foul personally unless you made it known in advance, but mostly because it's not fun to play a game where the party is just aimlessly lost all the time.
Any GM that makes the party aimlessly lost all the time is being a jerk. I said nothing of the kind and if you think that is what I meant, then you are being quite pessimistic. I stated that the GM has the right to adjust a DC beyond what is in the rules if he feels the situation merits it.
I would cry foul personally unless you made it known in advance, but mostly because it's not fun to play a game where the party is just aimlessly lost all the time. Not to mention that a druid can have the spell Know Direction as a cantrip. Making the whole thing moot.
Thus far, we have not been talking about magic, just DCs. There is nothing wrong with spells, magic items, or abilities that would solve the problem for the PCS. That's what they are for...and for those PCs that have them, hopefully the GM would play up how much of a saving grace they are for the party.
I agree with both of you as far as real life is concerned, but this isn't Hiking: The Role Playing Game. This is Pathfinder, where the point of the game is to kill stuff and collect loot (mostly).
Survival shows and games have become much more popular in the last five years. People will add whatever elements to their games that their groups like. If you think Pathfinder is about killing stuff and looting the booty, then feel free to play it that way. If others like more survival based elements, then they can play it their way.
You are making the assumptions that I don't respect my players enough to tell them what is happening when there is nothing in my reply that indicates it. How about assuming that a GM is doing right by his players instead...