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When I was reading the mythic rules, I found that there is an inconsistency between the powers that the Archmage and Hierophant mythic paths can choose from. Specifically: it takes the Archmage an extra action to use their archmage arcana.
The Archmage can gain the Arcane Surge or Wild Arcana powers. These are very nice abilities, but require the Archmage to use his swift action to activate them . However, the Hierophant powers Inspired Spell and Recalled blessing don't require a swift action to use even though they are otherwise mechanically identical to the Archmage powers (unless I am mistaken).
I find it hard to believe that this difference was intentional, so I'm assuming that one ability is worded incorrectly. I mean, why would the arcane casters specifically be required to use an additional action to use an ability that doesn't require an extra action for a divine caster? Should these abilities require swift actions to activate, or should they not?
Sorry for not formatting these spoilers, it would take a while to deal with all this text ;)
one use of mythic power to cast any one arcane spell
without expending a prepared spell or spell slot. If you
prepare spells, this spell must be one you prepared today
(even if you have already cast it); if you’re a spontaneous
caster, this spell must be one of your spells known. If the
spell requires a saving throw, any non-mythic creatures
affected by the spell roll twice and take the lower result.
If you must attempt a caster level check for the spell to
overcome a creature’s spell resistance, you can roll your
caster level check twice (adding your tier to each) and take
the higher result. You can’t add a metamagic feat to a
spell you cast using this ability.
Wild Arcana (Su): As a swift action, you can expend one
use of mythic power to cast any one arcane spell without
expending a prepared spell or spell slot. The spell must
be on one of your arcane class spell lists and must be of a
level that you can cast with that arcane spellcasting class.
You don’t need to have the spell prepared, nor does it need
to be on your list of spells known. When casting a spell in
this way, you treat your caster level as 2 levels higher for
the purpose of any effect dependent on level. You can apply
any metamagic feats you know to this spell, but its total
adjusted level can’t be greater than that of the highest-level
arcane spell you can cast from that spellcasting class.
power to cast any one divine spell, treating your caster
level as 2 levels higher. This spell must be on your divine
spell list (or your domain or mystery spell list) and must
be of a spell level that you can cast using that divine
spellcasting class. If you are a spontaneous spellcaster,
you don’t need to have the spell prepared, nor does it need
to be on your list of spells known. Using this ability does
not expend a prepared spell or available spell slot. You
can apply any metamagic feats you know to this spell,
but its total spell slot level must be a slot level you can
normally cast.
Recalled Blessing (Su): You can expend one use of mythic
power to cast any one divine spell without expending
a prepared spell or spell slot. If you prepare spells,
this spell must be one you prepared today; if you’re a
spontaneous caster, this spell must be one of your spells
known. You can’t apply metamagic feats to this spell. If
the spell requires a saving throw, non-mythic creatures
roll twice and take the lower result. If the spell heals
damage or requires you to attempt a caster level check to
cure an aff liction or remove a condition, roll twice and
take the higher result.
They are definitely different in minutiae but as far as theme, you are right they are not so different.
But, it probably was intentional for the Hierophant ability to not cost a swift action. Most divine casters don't have access to fireball type spells early on...arcane do. If it didn't cost a swift action for an arcane caster to use this ability, then they could sit and cast as many fireballs as they have mythic points in one round.
"You can expend one use of mythic power to cast any one divine spell"
I think the bolded part would be the kicker for arcane casters dual pathing.
They are definitely different in minutiae but as far as theme, you are right they are not so different.
But, it probably was intentional for the Hierophant ability to not cost a swift action. Most divine casters don't have access to fireball type spells early on...arcane do. If it didn't cost a swift action for an arcane caster to use this ability, then they could sit and cast as many fireballs as they have mythic points in one round.
There are a good number of ways for divine casters to get blasting spells. Oracles of Fire and Clerics of Sarenre come to mind. It seems kind of odd that they could theoretically out fireball an archmage.
Or as abilities go the arcane is better. A swift action to cast a spell or (as per the rules for abilities) Abilities that are not labeled take a standard action. Makes me wonder if this was the intent.
One of my players leans towards this interpretation, but I find it hard to believe that Paizo intended for Archmages to be able to cast any spell (no matter the normal casting time) as a swift action.
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"You can expend one use of mythic power to cast any one divine spell"
I think the bolded part would be the kicker for arcane casters dual pathing.
Mystic Theurges can prepare their arcane spells in Divine Spell slots and have them "follow the rules for the spellcasting class used to cast the spell". I could be reading too much into this, but a Mythic character who could burn through a bunch of powerful offensive spells as free actions and then top it off with Spell Synthesis could pretty much wrap any encounter solo.
I think the issue is less that the Archmage needs the action reduced to match the Heirophant, but that the Heirophant needs the action raised to match the Archmage.
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I think that is what is intended. As far as rules support goes it is what makes a lot of the domain powers for clerics and many other random x/day abilities useless without someone else to give the benefit too. Same issue just a different interpretation. Seems fair however since divine tends to have more spells known/greater spell access anyways...
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This is... something that needs to be noted rather quickly, methinks.
Yea, it seems like this thing is going to need a FAQ, either because of the difference between the arcane and divine versions or because of the way the arcane ones can be interpreted as letting you cast any spell as a swift action.
Don't forget to hit the FAQ button so we can get this one answered before it causes anyone in-game issues.
Bumping to make sure these questions (eventually) get answered :)
I was reading through and I thought the exact thing. Right now I'm leaning towards typo since I've already found others in the book (e.g. Archmage Speedy Summons says you have to be 3rd tier to take it in its text, but is listed as a 1st tier ability).
Strictly as written it looks to me like what Christopher Van Horn stated (swift to cast any known/prepared spell, rather than the listed casting time).
One could even make the inference that a Hierophant can use their surge to cast any of their divine spells as a standard action rather than the listed casting time.
Yeeeaaaa, there is no way that is intended. There are spells that have casting times measured in hours, and the idea of letting someone cast one of those as a swift action is crazy.
Bumping once again for Dev attention D:
I have a feeling that this may take a while because of gencon...
if i recall correctly the activation action required was also missing in the playtest so maybe is just a kind of missing the correction that was added to the arcane version.
Casting as a swift action spells with longer casting times was brought up in the playtest but never addressed so it would seems that is intentional
Casting spells that take normal casters hours to cast as a swift action? That seems like the thing of myths to me.
Perhaps. I just feel like that if it was meant to do that, they would have stated it outright since that's a pretty powerful ability.
It's pretty clear that you spend the mythic point and swift action to potentiate your ability to cast the spell under the given conditions- nowhere does it say that casting the spell only requires a swift action.
You pay the swift action/mythic point, then the standard action for a standard action spell.
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It's pretty clear that you spend the mythic point and swift action to potentiate your ability to cast the spell under the given conditions- nowhere does it say that casting the spell only requires a swift action.
You pay the swift action/mythic point, then the standard action for a standard action spell.
Wild Arcana (Su): As a swift action, you can expend one
use of mythic power to cast any one arcane spell without
expending a prepared spell or spell slot.
Wild Surge says two things:
1. casting the spell costs a swift action2. casting the spell does not expend a prepared spell or spell slot.
Arcane surge uses the same wording.
It's pretty clear that you spend the mythic point and swift action to potentiate your ability to cast the spell under the given conditions- nowhere does it say that casting the spell only requires a swift action.
You pay the swift action/mythic point, then the standard action for a standard action spell.
Wild Arcana (Su): As a swift action, you can expend one
use of mythic power to cast any one arcane spell without
expending a prepared spell or spell slot.Wild Surge says two things:
1. casting the spell costs a swift action
2. casting the spell does not expend a prepared spell or spell slot.Arcane surge uses the same wording.
It says you can expend one point of mythic power, using a swift action, to be able to cast the spell without losing the slot. The distinction is crucial. It does not say that the casting time for the spell is shortened to a swift action.
So you think the heirophant has to pay as a standard action and cast as a standard action? That seems off to me?It's pretty clear that you spend the mythic point and swift action to potentiate your ability to cast the spell under the given conditions- nowhere does it say that casting the spell only requires a swift action.
You pay the swift action/mythic point, then the standard action for a standard action spell.
I'm only talking about the rules verbiage under the Archmage section. Not trying to imply or infer any parallels when there might not be any intended.
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It says you can expend one point of mythic power, using a swift action, to be able to cast the spell without losing the slot. The distinction is crucial. It does not say that the casting time for the spell is shortened to a swift action.
You're adding punctuation that does not exist. The two components are made within a single statement, not broken up into separate actions.
It says you can expend one point of mythic power, using a swift action, to be able to cast the spell without losing the slot. The distinction is crucial. It does not say that the casting time for the spell is shortened to a swift action.You're adding punctuation that does not exist. The two components are made within a single statement, not broken up into separate actions.
I am not. Strictly following wording, there is no clause that reduces casting the spell to swift action, only adding the capability to cast one spell without losing the slot. Read what you yourself quoted. It says, "As a swift action, you can expend one use of mythic power to cast any one arcane spell without expending a prepared spell or spell slot."
Under your interpretation, it should have been worded:
"You can expend one use of mythic power to cast any one arcane spell as a swift action without expending a prepared spell or spell slot."
Then we would have been left wondering what action is used to spend the mythic point.
Seems clear to me.
I should also mention in terms of the spirit of the thing that arguing for an Archmage to be able to sling a spell-slotless, quickened, unprepared spell of maximum castable level every round said Archmage has a mythic point available is busted to the maximals.
If it is as clear as you say it is, can I spend all 5 of my mythic powers before going to bed to be able to cast 5 spells without expending a prepared spell or slot the next day?
Apparently so.
It isn't like they specified a time limit.
And that really strikes you as being RAW and RAI over spending the mythic surge to cast the spell as a swift action?If it is as clear as you say it is, can I spend all 5 of my mythic powers before going to bed to be able to cast 5 spells without expending a prepared spell or slot the next day?Apparently so.
It isn't like they specified a time limit.
I'm not arguing intent, I'm only saying that's how they wrote it. I don't care if it's weird or not. Frankly, both interpretations are quite weird; one's obscenely overpowered, and the other one interacts in strange ways.
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Trust me. Compared to what a melee can do with the extra standard action, casting a spell as a swift action (something non-mythic characters can already do) is not particularly impressive.
With the right build, I can auto-hit an opponent for 400+ damage without rolling dice. (At least 16d6 will be rolled, that's just the static damage.)
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Trust me. Compared to what a melee can do with the extra standard action, casting a spell as a swift action (something non-mythic characters can already do) is not particularly impressive.Really? You think casting Gate is not that impressive?
Why would it be when your opponents are already dead.
And the melee did not have to pay a material component cost.
Wizard: I just summoned two greater demons
Fighter: Dude, you just smoked 20k and the fight was already over.
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Trust me. Compared to what a melee can do with the extra standard action, casting a spell as a swift action (something non-mythic characters can already do) is not particularly impressive.Really? You think casting Gate is not that impressive?Why would it be when your opponents are already dead.
And the melee did not have to pay a material component cost.
Sure, then all the other monsters kill the melee guy.
Besides, what could a melee character do which was impressive with one standard action? Hit one monster one time?
Hit 1 time.
For enough to kill 1 opponent.
Without rolling dice.
Second standard action, rinse and repeat.
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Trust me. Compared to what a melee can do with the extra standard action, casting a spell as a swift action (something non-mythic characters can already do) is not particularly impressive.Really? You think casting Gate is not that impressive?Why would it be when your opponents are already dead.
And the melee did not have to pay a material component cost.
Sure, then all the other monsters kill the melee guy.
Besides, what could a melee character do which was impressive with one standard action? Hit one monster one time?Hit 1 time.
For enough to kill 1 opponent.
Without rolling dice.
You missed, your opponent was 100 feet up in the air.
Now it and the other 5 monsters attack you.
So?
I had an innate fly speed by 10th level. I block the first 120 points of damage, have DR 47 and a 70+ AC. None of those are even class specific abilities.
*You do realize that even fighters have access to spells in mythic. Pick your spell list and have fun. Absolutely anybody of any class can cast Haste 3/day at tier 1. Heck, you could have a fighter 2/mythic 1 character cast Summon Monster VII 1/day.
Let's not get into an off topic caster vs melee argument, lol.
Personally, I think I'm going to just rule in my games that these abilities for both the Archmage and Hierophant take a swift action to 'activate', and then the character has to proceed with the standard casting time. That way the character will have to make a choice between casting an extra-powerful spell or casting a standard+quickened spell that each round. I'm fairly certain that this is the RAI for the abilities for both mythic paths, but I could be wrong.
It'll be interesting to see what the devs say when they finish recovering from Gencon though.
*You do realize that even fighters have access to spells in mythic. Pick your spell list and have fun. Absolutely anybody of any class can cast Haste 3/day at tier 1. Heck, you could have a fighter 2/mythic 1 character cast Summon Monster VII 1/day.
No they don't. You have to have the regular version of the spell first before you can cast the Mythic version of the spell.
page 80 says "These spells aren’t separate spells you gain as a spell known from your spellcasting class, but rather mythically charged versions of spells you already know."
Also, you don't prepare a mythic spell, you prepare a standard spell and then convert it to a mythic verson by spending a use of mythic power. So no fighters don't have access to spells in Mythic unless they multiclass into a spell casting class.
Yea, I'm not really sure where he was getting the idea that a fighter could gain those kinds of spellcasting powers... especially at just tier 1.
*You do realize that even fighters have access to spells in mythic. Pick your spell list and have fun. Absolutely anybody of any class can cast Haste 3/day at tier 1. Heck, you could have a fighter 2/mythic 1 character cast Summon Monster VII 1/day.No they don't. You have to have the regular version of the spell first before you can cast the Mythic version of the spell.
page 80 says "These spells aren’t separate spells you gain as a spell known from your spellcasting class, but rather mythically charged versions of spells you already know."
I know it's off topic, but if a fighter grabs Divine Source and Mythic Spellcasting, they can cast their domain spells and, in addition, Mythic versions of them. Still more limited than a true caster, but I think that's pretty cool.
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*You do realize that even fighters have access to spells in mythic. Pick your spell list and have fun. Absolutely anybody of any class can cast Haste 3/day at tier 1. Heck, you could have a fighter 2/mythic 1 character cast Summon Monster VII 1/day.No they don't. You have to have the regular version of the spell first before you can cast the Mythic version of the spell.
page 80 says "These spells aren’t separate spells you gain as a spell known from your spellcasting class, but rather mythically charged versions of spells you already know."
legendary item -> intelligent -> spellcasting.
@Jeremy & Matrix Dragon:
Take item of legacy. The item can get spell casting. It can cast a 5th level spell up to 1/day. SMVII is a 5th level spell for a summoner.
That is why, every time Paizo uses "select a spell" it needs to indicate that you select a spell from a level 0 - 9 casting list. Not that summon monster V at level 2 / 1 is a whole lot better.
Ahh, interesting point. Though, technically this can't happen until Tier 2 because the first time you pick 'Intelligent' the character doesn't get to pick from one of the special abilities for Intelligent weapons.
Edit: Also, if you read further, it says "No spell can have a level higher than the bonded creature's tier" and "The caster level for these spells is equal to double the bonded creature's tier.".... so this actually isn't an issue at all. Even using the Summoner list, you can't get Summon Monster 7 until Tier 5.
Here's a related question: Was it intended that the Hierophant doesn't cast those spells as a Swift Action?
In comparison:
Guardian can use abilities as an Immediate or Swift Action
Champion can use abilities as a Swift Action
Archmage can definitely use abilities as a Swift Action
Marshal can use otherwise pointless abilities ;) as a Swift Action
Trickster can use abilities as a Swift Action
This is not mentioned for the Hierophant, EXCEPT for the first ability, Beast's Fury.
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Edit: Also, if you read further, it says "No spell can have a level higher than the bonded creature's tier" and "The caster level for these spells is equal to double the bonded creature's tier.".... so this actually isn't an issue at all. Even using the Summoner list, you can't get Summon Monster 7 until Tier 5.
Good point, though with Mythic Paragon it becomes available at tier 3.
*While testing the rules I built a fighter that took Mythic Paragon and Legendary Item at tier 3. Her sword enables her to cast greater invisibility 1/day.
Official Rules Response
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New FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gl#v5748eaic9r83
Why do the "inspired spell" and "wild arcana" path abilities have slightly different rules text?
These two abilities should function the same and (other than they affect divine or arcane spells) have identical rules text. They also need some clarification about what spells you can cast with either of these path abilities.
The proposed text for these two abilities (pending an official errata of the Mythic Adventures book) is: