Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We all have agreed it would be nice to be civil and to engage posters playstyles to persuade them to stay rather than telling them to just leave.There was a time I thought this was true, but Bluddwolf specifically rejected the idea that he had done anything wrong, and specifically insisted that he would do it all again.
I qualified that statement by saying that if someone came to PFO and and would not let go of the idea that there should be a PVE Only server, even after all of the explanations of how PVP is planned to be different here, they would be equally toxic as a griefer.
Just as you said you would tell the griefer to look elsewhere, as I did as well.
But, we have moved from this during this thead. But you are still clinging onto one comment made weeks ago, to one person. Holy Cow, what an overblown situation!!!
I have already stated what code I would follow. Something you have ignored. I have already pointed to Ryan Dancey's real message as to what our EE settlements should do to prepare, you ignored that as well.
Your fixation on getting people to agree with you that I am toxic, has not worked, and that is driving you insane. As a matter of fact, more people have backed my position, unsolicited and really by surprise to me.
This topic is completely toxic because you will not let go of the delusion that Ryan has anointed you with the charge to be a Holy crusader, to define, and then protect the Soul of the Community.
I have my code:
Be Welcoming - Welcome everyone
Be A Good Visitor - Don't introduce yourself with a negative
Be Helpful - Answer Questions and Direct to others who may know more
Be Instructive - Direct them to what we know and all parts of it
Be Patient - Give the person a chance to qualify their statement
Be Forthright - Get to the Point and Don't hide your true agenda
Be Open - Be Open to Different Points of View
Be Honest - "This is what we believe to be true"; show both sides.
Be Brave - Admit when you are wrong; Respectfully point out when you feel someone else wrong.
Be Respectful - This is the umbrella that all the others are covered by.
If people are willing to accept this for themselves, then fine. If they don't, they may have their own code.
For me I think my code will address the issue of where I had not been patient enough with a poster, which I fully accept as being my fault.
In the future, this will be what code I follow... Are you going to ignore this again.
And understand, very clearly, that "just drop it and move along" means...
You don't get to put words in peoples mouths. If you decide to use tactics like this frankly you are signalling that it is a waste of time discussing the issue further.
By all means carry on with your crusade, be aware though that you are doing more harm in my opinion than you are seeking to solve by your inability to let go of old tired arguments.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...specifically insisted that he would do it all again.I've not yet heard why anyone should care if he does it all again? His voice carries no more weight than anyone else's.
If a dozen people welcome the new poster, and answer his or her questions with equanimity, poise...and links, of course...why are we acting as if the new person will see the one response as more indicative of the community than all the others?
That's a valid question, and goes to the hear of my question.
What will it look like to have a community that is intolerant of unacceptable behavior?
Does that mean we basically accept it as long as it's rare?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bluddwolf is a valuable member of our community-he just recently brought up two great points; one I had forgotten and one I had missed. But I can't support him right now. There's a straw man or sheep or carebear or something hiding in his closet and he thinks it's going to ruin his new favourite game. I'm not going in there; the sheep smells and the carebear gets grabby. Nihimon is a valuable member of our community-I generally love his vision for PFO and I admire his knowledge of the boards and blogs. But I can't support him right now. I don't want to join the 4th Crusade against Bluddwolf. There's a cognitive dissonance between the title of this thread and the turn it has taken, no?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...specifically insisted that he would do it all again.I've not yet heard why anyone should care if he does it all again? His voice carries no more weight than anyone else's.
If a dozen people welcome the new poster, and answer his or her questions with equanimity, poise...and links, of course...why are we acting as if the new person will see the one response as more indicative of the community than all the others?
That's a valid question, and goes to the hear of my question.
What will it look like to have a community that is intolerant of unacceptable behavior?
Does that mean we basically accept it as long as it's rare?
I think that it means that Realmwalker heard the other side and decided to stick around. What happens if "The Community" does decide that any other way is unacceptable? What will "The Community" do if someone posts what it does not like? Perhaps exactly what it has done.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I qualified that statement by saying that if someone came to PFO and and would not let go of the idea that there should be a PVE Only server, even after all of the explanations of how PVP is planned to be different here, they would be equally toxic as a griefer.
You also used that quote from Realmwalker - that Open PvP was a dealbreaker - as evidence that Realmwalker himself was unwilling to consider a game with Open PvP, even though that quote was out of context, and even though he explicitly pointed out what he equated with Open PvP.
Just as you said you would tell the griefer to look elsewhere, as I did as well.
I acknowledged I would have been wrong to do so. You have not acknowledged this.
I have already stated what code I would follow. Something you have ignored.
I've ignored it because it's irrelevant. It's not a question of what vague principles you agree to be bound to in the future - knowing full well that there's plenty of wiggle room to argue that any of them don't apply to any particular situation you find yourself in. This is why I'm focusing on very specific acts.
Your fixation on getting people to agree with you that I am toxic, has not worked, and that is driving you insane. As a matter of fact, more people have backed my position, unsolicited and really by surprise to me.
This topic is completely toxic because you will not let go of the delusion that Ryan has anointed you with the charge to be a Holy crusader, to define, and then protect the Soul of the Community.
I am not fixated on getting others to agree with me. As I have made clear, the numbers on either side are irrelevant to me. It's the principles that matter.
No, I'm not fixated on getting others to agree with me, but I would very much appreciate getting you to acknowledge that: 1) it is unacceptable to attack other posters because they are concerned that Open PvP meas grief-fest; and 2) it is unacceptable to attack other posters for attempting to assuage those concerns by pointing to dev posts and design principles.
I am also not interested in trying to paint you as toxic, but rather the specific act where you attacked people for trying to make Realmwalker understand that PvP in PFO would be different than in the other Open PvP games he had previously experienced.
It's not driving me insane. The numbers don't matter. I am under no delusion that Ryan has appointed me to do this - rather I am acutely aware that Ryan has called on the community to do this.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
And understand, very clearly, that "just drop it and move along" means...You don't get to put words in peoples mouths. If you decide to use tactics like this frankly you are signalling that it is a waste of time discussing the issue further.
By all means carry on with your crusade, be aware though that you are doing more harm in my opinion than you are seeking to solve by your inability to let go of old tired arguments.
I am not putting words in people's mouths. I am pointing out the logical equivalence between "move on" and "accept it and move on".
I will ask again, what will it look like to be intolerant of unacceptable behavior?
If something is "unacceptable", do you simply say "that's unacceptable" and never mention it again?
If something is "unacceptable", then by definition it means you must not accept it, otherwise it is in fact "acceptable".
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
There's a cognitive dissonance between the title of this thread and the turn it has taken, no?
Oh, I think a community is being built, in this thread and others. It might turn out to be a community of people like yourself, with a similar view on life and a desire to get the game (and forums) started in a right direction.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The forum is not the place to play out your personal "fight" with another person. Any effort to build community is being undermined. Nihimom and Bluddwolf, you both go too far when you mix in your personal fight . I believe we have a community consensus that you two need to stop it or don't talk to each other. And don't think that it isn't personal between you two , it is not just a disagreement about ideas.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Does that mean we basically accept it as long as it's rare?
As we accept many things that happen in American society...and, to differing extents, in many other societies as well...yes. As long as they're rare, then they're not forming "too much" disruption.
When the disruption rises to "unacceptable" levels--as determined by the consensus of the populace--change occurs. There are differing viewpoints, and that's an acceptable state of affairs.
In this specific case, I believe the relationship between you and Bluddwolf has turned toxic, and I wish you'd both completely, totally, and utterly ignore each other for the rest of time...excessive hyperbole deliberately included for emphasis.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My concern is that at some point, the desire of some to purge the forums of "unacceptable actions" will mean that if your actions are judged unacceptable that you must either change your mind or they will "remove you from the community" (as worded in the post I'm referencing). I'm not certain how any poster has the power to remove a fellow poster from this forum, but at least one poster in this thread has already aimed this type of statement at a fellow poster.First, could you please link the post you're referencing? I am not trying to remove anyone from the community.
Nihomon,
I had already posted that I would rather we dropped all of this, but you have likewise posted that you will not. As you can see in my quoted material above, I never assigned this quote to you. I purposely did not use this particular poster's name because I wasn't interested in attacking or condemning the individual poster, but rather, conveying my concern for where this might potentially end up. Unfortunately, if I now refuse to "give up" the poster, I will appear as if I am attempting to back-peddle on supporting my own statement. Post 158 from p. 4 of this thread:
I suggest again, we leave this as an irreconcilable difference of opinion , and we move along. Can we perhaps try this?
Are you prepared to acknowledge that honest people believe that your actions are unacceptable, and respect us as individuals even as we try to either change your mind or remove you from the community?
Because I'm convinced that you have acted and stated the intent to act in a manner incompatible with a good community.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
When the disruption rises to "unacceptable" levels--as determined by the consensus of the populace--change occurs. There are differing viewpoints, and that's an acceptable state of affairs.
The point is, some believe this point has been reached...and are pushing for that change. What that change would be is the offender changing their views, what it would look like is the offender stating they will change their behaviour in the future (and doing so). This is simple.
Personally, especially in light of statements like:
I'm only concerned about activities that GW says violates the rules of the game. Even then, it is GW's responsibility to punish it or code it out of the possibility of doing it. If they know it and do nothing, that is tacit approval of it.
I, like Nihimon, feel there is no recourse but to explicitly express disapproval...otherwise it is a "tacit approval of it"....and I do not approve of it. Nihimon is the braver and more intellectually honest of us and is taking on the fight...and I expect will continue until either the thread dies from lack of responses, or the goal is achieved.
Again, that goal would be: the "change occurs". The change in this case needs to be that the actor of the behaviour in question modify what they think is acceptable behaviour. It is the only solution that should be acceptable to anyone who cares about removing disruptions (not removing disruptors, no one is asking for that).
As for just dropping the topic, If dropped before the desired change is made, what was the point? And again, if we do not make the point, we are "tacitly approving the behaviour".
What baffles me is why those who do not see the point of the discussion, those who just do not care, those who disagree that the necessary point of disruption has been met, and/or those who just want the conflict to cease, why they bother coming into the thread and posting at all. If necessary, stop bumping the thread and it will by default - die.
EDIT: Changed some verbs to remove unintended connotations.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I was wrong. I shouldn't tell them this isn't the game for them. I should work to explain how this game will not support that particular play style, and encourage them to adopt a play style that will be supported.
I am just catching up but I wanted to point out that this gives me hope. Thank you for posting this, because it goes a long way in easing my concerns.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If its about one persons opinion then it should be handled with private messages.
Agreed, were it about one person's opinion.
Honestly, trying to change someone's opinion on the Internet is futile but if you must, then do it privately.
If this is true then why do we bother? Are you really claiming we all only get online to blindly expound our own views? Personally, I learn a lot and often find where my opinions/views are wrong while on the internet...and even here in these forums. For me it is a social tool, which (again for me) is a give and take.
But, your point is taken, when and if I do find people who refuse the give and take and only want to push ideas on others without listening to feedback, then I identify and avoid those persons. I have hope that few if any here are like that...and I will act upon that hope until the evidence proves me wrong
...but this applies anywhere, not just the internet (I am in academia, I meet an unusually high percentage of these people in RL).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
and is taking on the fight...and I expect will continue
If the PO forum is a place where people come to fight , for whatever reason, then I am outa here. I watched the SWTOR forum go from a happy and fun place (before beta) to a nasty mess.
Are we now going to ague about arguing ? None of us are as right as we think we are. If you argue until others shut up ,you are just a bully.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wow, go on another shift at work... unable to keep up with the forums... and find the start of this thread where I get attacked... Then several pages of Bludd getting attacked...
How sad is that? Take an argument from a completely different thread and start a new one to do it over again? Hey... Sounds like fun, so lets argue some more.
Take a break Bludd, Im up now. Although day shift does not let me sit in front of a computer as much.
Notmyrealname has it right, starting up thread after thread telling people how they should act and trying to bully them into doing it your way is pretty lame.
@KitNyx - Nihimon is the more intellectually honest? By starting this thread he is doing the same thing he is trying to fight.
If people come on here and say "I want this or else." Guess what, they get the or else. When people have a demand, it will not go away when you appease them. They will make another, and another, and another, and another...
So, when whatever his name was, says PVE Server or Dealbreaker... Too late, only one server and its PVP... Cya later!!
Oh, and this is the internet... If I dont know you in person, I dont care what you think of me nor do I care what you term as acceptable. My a~!~!+! character will be named Xeen, my nice guy character will not be and he will probably be in your settlement... You wont be the wiser.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
and is taking on the fight...and I expect will continueIf the PO forum is a place where people come to fight , for whatever reason, then I am outa here. I watched the SWTOR forum go from a happy and fun place (before beta) to a nasty mess.
Are we now going to ague about arguing ? None of us are as right as we think we are. If you argue until others shut up ,you are just a bully.
Good point. My personal opinion is that trying to find a unified "code of ethics" or even ideology within the entire community is already a lost cause...case in point, when the proverbial Goons show up, they are just as much a part of the community as we.
I think our efforts would be better spent focusing on the creation, development, and expansion of several sub-communities of people who already agree on major points of interest and codes of ethics. That is even how I interpreted Mr. Dancey's "call to action".
However, I can understand Nihimon's interpretation and can offer no evidence or argument to the contrary. Similarly, I can see his position as the more noble of two, as I can see that the draw of mine is that it is a path of least resistance. If his interpretation is correct, then I am forced to agree with him on logical grounds.
I too prefer a non-combative environment in the forums, and hope we can share ideas and come to agreements based solely upon rational discussion. When needed, sensitive topics such as this could be addressed with minimal or no emotional negativity.
My use of the word "fight" in my post above should have been one of those I changed to avoid unintended connotations. Sorry for the over-sight.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
/popcorn and chair
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know Xeen, Every time I read your posts I imagine you like this
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know Xeen, Every time I read your posts I imagine you like this
Now that is funny
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Xeen, intellectually honest to me means you act upon what you believe. Can you deny Nihimon is doing this (I did not ask whether you think his beliefs right or wrong)?
The point is, some believe this point has been reached...and are pushing for that change. What that change would be is the offender changing their views, what it would look like is the offender stating they will change their behaviour in the future (and doing so). This is simple.
For the record, I think my condition above has been met.
I have my code:
Be Welcoming - Welcome everyone
Be A Good Visitor - Don't introduce yourself with a negative
Be Helpful - Answer Questions and Direct to others who may know more
Be Instructive - Direct them to what we know and all parts of it
Be Patient - Give the person a chance to qualify their statement
Be Forthright - Get to the Point and Don't hide your true agenda
Be Open - Be Open to Different Points of View
Be Honest - "This is what we believe to be true"; show both sides.
Be Brave - Admit when you are wrong; Respectfully point out when you feel someone else wrong.
Be Respectful - This is the umbrella that all the others are covered by.If people are willing to accept this for themselves, then fine. If they don't, they may have their own code.
For me I think my code will address the issue of where I had not been patient enough with a poster, which I fully accept as being my fault.
In the future, this will be what code I follow.
For me, the benefit of the doubt will be extended to Bluddwolf that the change has occurred until he proves otherwise. I am done with this thread.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
He has a good code.
I will admit that what I said in the other post was not the best example. Which I even said there. There were also examples of helping a person that came with the same concerns but did not start out with a negative.
People have to accept there will be PVP in the game. They will not be able to completely avoid it. If they cannot accept that then past "this is not the game for you" I dont know what to tell them.
You can string them along if you wish, get them to jump on board and waste their money and time... because they will leave.
May as well be honest. Even if it is blunt. Which is more intellectually honest then stringing them along.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
4. I believe we [i]must not allow a majority to silence the voices who call out this behavior as being unacceptable. If goons came here in force, should their sheer numbers be permitted to change the tenor of the community
I was going to leave this alone for now, because it is slightly off topic. I will point out a few things on it here because it has been brought up here multiple times, and not just by you.
First of all, I am deeply suspicious that the Goon scare is warranted. The fact that it exists seems in contradiction to the call for rationality.
It has been looked into to some degree, and thus far there is no indication that there is collective interest by the Goons for Pathfinder Online (on their forums or in Eve). There also seems to be no collective interest in some of the other alliances (such as Test, for example). I would be curious to see if anyone else's search brings back evidence to the contrary.
In the case of Goons there is a reason to think or wish for PFO to fail. I won't go into the reason on these forums, but it is searchable.
The Speculative Portion
I do think you could make a good case to suspect some large force will enter the game sometimes after OE. No matter what name they carry I see little reason to believe they will be interested in forum politics (beyond for personal amusement). I see less reason to believe they will see these boards as a viable vehicle for the goal of conquest.
It is more reasonable to believe they will continue with their tact in other titles. Namely the conquering of the map by in game tactics, superior numbers, espionage, etc.
In other words it is less likely that the issue will be an idealistic one, and more likely it will be numerical.
In light of that I would argue that current community consensus is indeed important. There is no reason to believe we will be able to separate into differing opinions once the game launches.
Make your kingdoms massive. If you are targeting in the hundreds, I would say your scope might be too small.
Be willing to accept "Enemy of my Enemy" scenario's. If you can not find common ground in face of a massive threat you are subtracting numbers, not adding them.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
He has a good code.
I will admit that what I said in the other post was not the best example. Which I even said there. There were also examples of helping a person that came with the same concerns but did not start out with a negative.
People have to accept there will be PVP in the game. They will not be able to completely avoid it. If they cannot accept that then past "this is not the game for you" I dont know what to tell them.
You can string them along if you wish, get them to jump on board and waste their money and time... because they will leave.
May as well be honest. Even if it is blunt. Which is more intellectually honest then stringing them along.
[Only responding because I actually feel I can offer a constructive, non-combative response]
Difference in beliefs acknowledged. I expect you will act upon those beliefs...the concern many will have is that in order to be intellectually honest, you will need to explicitly act in a manner that is counter to the instructions of the game developers. I can assure you, and you can take from it what you will, some in the "community" will continue acting upon that concern. They will ask you to justify yourself. I am guessing the justifications you just listed will not satisfy them...simply because they see the dev as an authority (and that authority is believed to trump any personal thoughts on the matter).
I guess we will test the theory that chaotic persons can act in a formation for the greater good.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I am sick of reading about this, but unable to stop. Last words that leave doors open because points in the "complete" original posts are ignored. Community disapproval already evident in the longest thread in the history of this board. The real "victim" of this actually sticking around, others choosing not to. The drive for the soul of the community and whatever "plans" can be implemented to change peoples unacceptable points of view. Blatant and defiant disregard for suggested responses that are more informative than "This is not the game for you", "carebears will always cry...". Follow this with "the community needs to show disapproval", "the soul of the community is at stake", the implied "what would the community look like if personal opinions were controlled by the community"
You are all wrong, IMO, and taking it so far as to make the toxic environment you do not want, actual.
and then I see the little button to hide this thread from my sight. Bye.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
He has a good code.
I will admit that what I said in the other post was not the best example. Which I even said there. There were also examples of helping a person that came with the same concerns but did not start out with a negative.
People have to accept there will be PVP in the game. They will not be able to completely avoid it. If they cannot accept that then past "this is not the game for you" I dont know what to tell them.
You can string them along if you wish, get them to jump on board and waste their money and time... because they will leave.
May as well be honest. Even if it is blunt. Which is more intellectually honest then stringing them along.
[Only responding because I actually feel I can offer a constructive, non-combative response]
Difference in beliefs acknowledged. I expect you will act upon those beliefs...the concern many will have is that in order to be intellectually honest, you will need to explicitly act in a manner that is counter to the instructions of the game developers. I can assure you, and you can take from it what you will, some in the "community" will continue acting upon that concern. They will ask you to justify yourself. I am guessing the justifications you just listed will not satisfy them...simply because they see the dev as an authority (and that authority is believed to trump any personal thoughts on the matter).
I guess we will test the theory that chaotic persons can act in a formation for the greater good.
As Andius pointed out earlier, the concerns of the devs is not in the same context as being used here. Just as Nihimon did not quote me in context.
Of course they will not agree with my thoughts. They are mine.
Everyone wants thing to be their way.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
First of all, I am deeply suspicious that the Goon scare is warranted.
I refer to "goons" on purpose, as a general category rather than a particular group.
No matter what name they carry I see little reason to believe they will be interested in forum politics (beyond for personal amusement). I see less reason to believe they will see these boards as a viable vehicle for the goal of conquest.
It is more reasonable to believe they will continue with their tact in other titles. Namely the conquering of the map by in game tactics, superior numbers, espionage, etc.
It is my contention that a likely course of action for them would be to cause the forums to devolve into the toxic mess that Ryan has warned us about as an explicit strategy in order to prepare the battlefield in-game. I believe they would likely do this by trying to remove the consequences from PvP.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
First of all, I am deeply suspicious that the Goon scare is warranted.I refer to "goons" on purpose, as a general category rather than a particular group.
No matter what name they carry I see little reason to believe they will be interested in forum politics (beyond for personal amusement). I see less reason to believe they will see these boards as a viable vehicle for the goal of conquest.
It is more reasonable to believe they will continue with their tact in other titles. Namely the conquering of the map by in game tactics, superior numbers, espionage, etc.
It is my contention that a likely course of action for them would be to cause the forums to devolve into the toxic mess that Ryan has warned us about as an explicit strategy in order to prepare the battlefield in-game. I believe they would likely do this by trying to remove the consequences from PvP.
That contention seems more based on opinion based speculation than supported. If I have missed where this is evidenced I am willing to alter my position.
Until it is substantiated I am more inclined to my prior post.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There is no reason to remove the consequences for PVP that are currently planned. PVP can be anywhere, as Ryan stated in the CE thread. He is up in the air about "High Sec Ganking" because it is part of the mechanics.
The only thing alignment/reputation will effect for large groups like the "goons" is nothing. They will have alts for other civs, build a settlement based on an alignment they wish. Declare war when they wish and conquer.
The consequences that are planned for this game only limit you against yourself for a particular character.
Get into other settlements? Alts
Missing a skill because of alignment? Alts
Create massive nations? Whatever
Dak is right, goon type groups in Eve only use the forums for their own amusement. There is only one place on the Eve forums thats a toxic mess, its called CAOD. Corporation and Alliance Organization Discussion. It has been allowed to be toxic, everywhere else will get your posts deleted.
Again, we have to stop with the assumptions.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
It is my contention that a likely course of action for them would be to cause the forums to devolve into the toxic mess that Ryan has warned us about as an explicit strategy in order to prepare the battlefield in-game. I believe they would likely do this by trying to remove the consequences from PvP.That contention seems more based on opinion based speculation than supported. If I have missed where this is evidenced I am willing to alter my position.
Until it is substantiated I am more inclined to my prior post.
Agreed. While I played Wurm, I saw a small incursion of Goons and a largish incursion from 4chan. Both groups seemed totally willing to play within the game rules - sometimes pushing right against the rules or twisting the rules, but they played within the rules that existed. I think that such groups are fine with consequences to PvP, especially when those consequences can limit other's actions. They might ignore/accept the consequences themselves, whatever is most effective. Of course, this is just guesswork on my part - I don't claim to fully understand the groups - I just admire their techniques, preferably from a distance.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was wrong. I shouldn't tell them this isn't the game for them. I should work to explain how this game will not support that particular play style, and encourage them to adopt a play style that will be supported.
i think this may be the point where you and Bludd could come to see eye to eye, encourage them to play while being bluntly honest. imo the reason why we cant condemn Bludd on that ocasion is because the guy came with a closed mind stance(even if unintentionally)to discuss, also the fact that the instance " the game is not for u" came just after a lot of discussion and convincing with no success. but the reason im posting this is because both of u are equally important to the community, usually pointing out the 2 extremes where we see it and reach a middle ground.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I was wrong. I shouldn't tell them this isn't the game for them. I should work to explain how this game will not support that particular play style, and encourage them to adopt a play style that will be supported.i think this may be the point where you and Bludd could come to see eye to eye, encourage them to play while being bluntly honest. imo the reason why we cant condemn Bludd on that ocasion is because the guy came with a closed mind stance(even if unintentionally)to discuss, also the fact that the instance " the game is not for u" came just after a lot of discussion and convincing with no success. but the reason im posting this is because both of u are equally important to the community, usually pointing out the 2 extremes where we see it and reach a middle ground.
I appreciate that reply.
It may not be apparent, but I really didn't start this thread in order to lead a "4th Crusade against Bluddwolf".
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You guys are arguing about low order concerns like whether the game is "about" PvP, what constitutes griefing and incivility, etc.For the record, I'm not trying to define "what constitutes griefing and incivility", I'm trying to create a model for what it will look like to be intolerant of unacceptable behavior.
That's a low order concern. You vs. Bluudwolf is an even lower order concern.
Us figuring out how to create fairly large, cohesive groups of players across timezones, along with recruiting/finding people who have the social skills and deep dedication to run settlements, is a high order concern.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
I think that creating a positive community is a high-value goal that we can work towards right now. The first relevant questions to that goal are "What is a positive community?" and "How do we tell that a community is positive?".
There are some self-referential loops and false starts (like defing the community by the perception of the community; 'The community is friendly IFF we say it is'), but I think that we're at the point that we can start talking about what we think makes a healthy community-without yet discussing the things a healthy community does.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Let me start I have read this thread and thought long and hard on if I wish to add anything to it and if I did what I would say. Many posters on this thread I respect and admire. Of the more vocal ones I wish to single out would be both Bluddwolf and Nihimon. I believe that the both of you add much to the community as a whole.
@Bluddwolf I noticed that you may feel that some see your posts are rude and toxic to this community. I do not see them as such. It may be because I am a Native New Yorker that I do not see them that way. New Yorkers have the tendency to be curt, and speak our mind without sugar coating our words or considering the political correctness of what we are saying. We just say what is on our minds and let the chips fall where they may. I see a lot of that in the way you post. You are to me the visual face of the pvp community. Even though my desire is to have a non-combatant character you and your group made me feel welcome and and a member of your group Xeen offer to take me out and teach the ways of the pvp world is appreciated.
@ Nihimon Your vision, ideas and the time you give to this community is very valuable and very appreciate by many. My respect for you is so high that TSV is on my short list of charter companies to check out when I am in EE because of you and the work you have done here in the past.
On to the matter of what you Nihimon you have asked many times: What does it look like to be intolerant of unacceptable behavior?
It is my belief that the only person’s behavior acceptable or unacceptable I can be responsible for is my own. The only person’s posts I can judge correctly if it is to be positive or negative to the community at large are my own. I am sorry but I have to disagree with you that as a single person on this forum I have the right to determine if another person’s action is becoming toxic and is unacceptable. I believe that is the right and the job of forum moderators to decide and if chastisement is called for, it is for them to initiate.
What can I do if someone is acting in a manner that is disrespectful to the community? I think that my responsibility is to politely point out that Goblin Works wish that we as posters respect each other. I think Bluddwolf cover this very well in his code when he wrote: Be Brave - Admit when you are wrong; respectfully point out when you feel someone else wrong.
Speaking of which I can fully stand behind the code Bluddwolf wrote in his post:
Be Welcoming - Welcome everyone
Be A Good Visitor - Don't introduce yourself with a negative
Be Helpful - Answer Questions and Direct to others who may know more
Be Instructive - Direct them to what we know and all parts of it
Be Patient - Give the person a chance to qualify their statement
Be Forthright - Get to the Point and Don't hide your true agenda
Be Open - Be Open to Different Points of View
Be Honest - "This is what we believe to be true"; show both sides.
Be Brave - Admit when you are wrong; Respectfully point out when you feel someone else wrong.
Be Respectful - This is the umbrella that all the others are covered by.
To my version of this code I will only add one item:
Be Chivalrous- if it becomes clear discussion has reached the point where an agreement cannot be reached I will respectfully agree to disagree and take the topic off the public forums to a private one if necessary.I end my thoughts with a personal observation it seems to me this topic has too many posts were fingers are being pointed at each other. I will end my thoughts with a familiar quote I think many here will recognize:
“When one point a finger accusing someone of being in the wrong one should notice that three fingers are pointing back at you.”
It is my wish the tension that is being felt by me right now here is just birthing pains and we will reach an understanding and become a stronger closer community because of it.
ed because of Xeen's post below
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Diella, I was the one to offer to take you out and show you the ropes in PVP. LOL, but I am part of Bludd's group so no biggy.
I think Bludd is a New Yorker as well. I live outside of Chicago and its pretty much the same thing here for half the population... The other half are so overly politically correct that it makes me want to puke. You know they are not being honest, and will backstab you x3 when they can.
I recognize your quote, but cannot remember from where.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Be Chivalrous- if it becomes clear discussion has reached the point where an agreement cannot be reached I will respectfully agree to disagree and take the topic off the public forums to a private one if necessary.
* Be Welcoming - Welcome everyone
* Be A Good Visitor - Don't introduce yourself with a negative
* Be Helpful - Answer Questions and Direct to others who may know more
* Be Instructive - Direct them to what we know and all parts of it
* Be Patient - Give the person a chance to qualify their statement
* Be Forthright - Get to the Point and Don't hide your true agenda
* Be Open - Be Open to Different Points of View
* Be Honest - "This is what we believe to be true"; show both sides.
* Be Brave - Admit when you are wrong; Respectfully point out when you feel someone else wrong.
* Be Respectful - This is the umbrella that all the others are covered by.
* Be Chivalrous- if it becomes clear discussion has reached the point where an agreement cannot be reached I will respectfully agree to disagree and take the topic off the public forums to a private one if necessary.
It has been added, and a great addition it is. Although "Chivalrous" is a bit corny....
"Hey you know that poster on the forums... He is pretty Chivalrous, isn't he?"
I of course thank you for your praise, but it is widely in excess in my case. I'm just a voice here, a loud one at times, but just a voice amongst about 70. It is no greater than your voice, as is evident here in your post.
As for the NY thing.... PM me, what part of NY are you in?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@ Bluddwolf pm sent
You are right "Chivalrous" is a bit corny but I figured it would work since pathfinder is a fantasy game with many medieval aspect to it.
I spent a long time looking for the right word Chivalrous was the closest I came.
@ Xeen As to the quote I was not sure where it came from either so I looked it up it was said by Louis Nizer
I was curious about him so I goggle who he was.
/enter teacher mode
So here is a little bit about Nizer: was a noted American trial lawyer. He represented many celebrities in a variety of cases, among them Quentin Reynolds in his successful libel suit against columnist Westbrook Pegler, and the broadcaster John Henry Faulk against AWARE, a right-wing organization that had falsely labeled him a communist.
He wrote "The Implosion Conspiracy" in 1972, a study of the Julius and Ethel Rosenberg espionage case. He died at the age 92 in New York City, having continued to work at his firm until 10 days before his death.
His representation of Reynolds served as the basis for the Broadway play A Case of Libel, which starred Van Heflin.
With Jack Valenti, Nizer helped create the motion picture ratings system of the Motion Picture Association of America, which he served as general counsel.
After the assassination of John F. Kennedy, he authored the foreword to the Warren Commission report that investigated JFK's murder and the conspiracy theories that still surround it.
In addition to his legal work, Louis Nizer was an author, artist, lecturer, and advisor to some of the most powerful people in the worlds of politics, business, and entertainment. For a number of years, Nizer was listed in the Guinness Book of World Records as the "highest-paid lawyer in the world". In addition to his success in the legal world, he was married to his wife Mildred for over 50 years. Over his life, Nizer bestowed significant grants and charity to many Jewish causes.
/exit teacher mode
I looked through some of his other quotes and there are many pearl of wisdom to be found there.
